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Sunday, July 30, 2006

Comments

I hope I am wrong, but what a bunch of crap... We could have shipped Lidle to another team than to accept that from the Yankees. The Phillies damn well better spend A LOT of money in the off-season if this deal is indeed legit!! What happened to Proctor and Duncan or anybody better than what we were given??

Duncan better be the player to be named later.

I don't care if I'm the only one who will defend this deal. It's fine by me. The point was to get rid of Abreu and move on. Mission accomplished. Look past the fringe prospects they got and realize there'll be a whole lot of money left over to spend for a better player down the road.

So the last thing Abreu did in a Phillies uniform was get picked off. Somehow entirely appropriate.

And why is Burrell still on this team? Why not just sell him to the Red Sox or someone.

I am so furious. If i ever see Gillick in a dark alley, I'll be sure to pressure him into a game of high stakes poker.

I don't mind dumping Abreu, its throwing in Lidle when we could have made them pick up Leiber's tab if we were going to get so little in return. I hope the player to be named is better than some of the slop we were just dished.

I'm a Mets fan, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in. Obviously Abreu is worth more, but it probably came down to the teams that Abreu was willing to move to and the players/money those teams were willing to give up. The Yankees clearly were willing to give up the most money and that was the difference here. I hope ownership steps up for you guys, because it's always sad to see a team concede their season. Us Mets fans now all about it. It's the most unfortunate part of the business.

i look at this way: would i want the phils to sign an outfielder who hits about .280-290 with 15 homeruns, whose best attribute is getting on base for $15 million dollars, knowing the phils won't bat him leadoff anyways? i would say no. abreu had some good years here, but his type of production is not irreplacable. the phils aren't the yankees, they can't afford to spend 15 million dollars on a player with declining skills. if you just look at the players involved, the trade looks horrible, but you have to consider the money.

Robothal sez two prospects to be named later - if they're Clippard and Duncan, that would make it easier to swallow this deal.

I thought we were past the fetish for fungible middle relievers?

Appropriate that it's during a series against the Marlins, the kings of the fire sale. Although, they at least get prospects to build for the future. Sad day for Philly fans - again.

"So the last thing Abreu did in a Phillies uniform was get picked off. Somehow entirely appropriate."

WHy is that appropriate...Abreu is an excellent baserunner who had great stolen base ratios.

Well, since Jason started the cursing, this fucking sucks! OK if I get mad now since the deal appears even worse than it did before? I can't believe you are sticking by the addition by subtraction argument RSB, anymore quotes from the Mai Ly massacre you want to use to defend the ownership group?

If I'm correct, you fault Abreu because "he has been here" during the last couple years...this despite the fact that these were the best years the Phillies have had outsided of the Schmidt/Carlton teams since 1950! J-Roll has been here the whole time too, and nobody wants to dump him. Oh, that's right, he has a nice smile, so cares that he gets on base 32% of the time.

Abreu lost fans in Philly because he is shy and doesn't speak english well. Nobody could actually look at what he has done for this team for seven years and conclude that he was in any way responsible for the team's failure to make the playoffs. It's just a sad, sad, day for the team.

Burrell is on this team because he invoked his no-trade clause, which Ed Wade gave him. He's going to ride out and cash in for as long as he can.

With Fasano, Bell, Franklin, Abreu, and Lidle gone, that's $24.5 million off the books, or 28% of the payroll.

OK, so the Phils are unapologetically dumping salary. Next step: please, please, please, get rid of Burrell and Lieber.

... and Rollins.

Fly! Eagles Fly!
On the Way to Victory! (Fight! Fight! Fight!)
Fly! Eagles Fly!
Score a touchdown 1-2-3! (T.O. Sucks!)
Hit 'em low, Hit 'em high
and watch our Eagles fly!
Fly! Eagles Fly!
On the Way to Victory!
E-A-G-L-E-S! EAGLES!

I cannot believe how little Gillick got in return for Abreu and Lidle. Heck Sal Fasano and David Bell nearly got this much.

fucking shame is absolutely right.

but wait, we're going to get some of those great free agents this offseason, right? yep, bring on the mediocre, overpaid middle-rotation starters. I for one can't wait.

another excellent con job by Philadelphia management. and you wonder why our franchise is such a joke.

Sad but true Billy Mac. Sad but fucking true...

The Marlins comparison is apt. The Marlins traded Lowell & Beckett and got 2 topnotch prospects back: Ramirez & Sanchez plus 2 lesser prospects. The Phillies trade a guy who averages 100 runs and 100 RBI plus a decent 4th starter and get one mediocre prospect (Henry) one organizational filler (Smith) and maybe if they're lucky, a guy who failed in his first try at AAA and whose best position is 1B (Duncan). kdon was absolutely right: It's a salary dump. Look for 85 to 100 losses next season.

I can understand just dumping Abreu's contract for lower level prospects. I can't understand why they included Cory Lidle. If they would have held onto him until the offseason they would have gotten a first round pick if he signed with another team and that first round pick would have been better than these prospects. Abreu was just in the dugout saying good bye to Burrell and some other players and coaches.

I would love nothing more than to drive this team out of town. Total boycott of the ballpark.

We would have one year without a team then would grab one from somewhere else.

At least then we would have a CHANCE. I understand we are dumping salary, but who gives a fuck when you get NO future talent in return!!!

None of the trades that have been made will help the phillies win games in the next few years. We needed good prospects. You can't build a championship team through free-agency, especially when we will never attract a top of the line starter with the ballpark.

Sick. Sick. Sick

Oh, and Matt SMith is 27! Bit long on the tooth for a "prospect."

It just dawned on me that this deal stink even more because it so obviously helps the Yankees. This move combined with the whole Myers deal will have people here in Boston hating the PHillies for a long time. Justifiably.

Lieby!!! Well, at least I can still like the players!

we know Weitzel is pissed if he uses the "f-bomb"...and to think, I've been edited on here before. I'm glad Abreu is off the books, but to include Lidle in the deal and not get crap in return isn't what I was looking for. This looks bad, really bad in my opinion, unless the 2 minor leaguers to be named are actual prospects.

Trading players in the off-season as compared with trading them during the season makes a big difference. It's especially difficult when said player has a no-trade clause, as you are finding out with Burrell. Every once in a while, a fleecing takes place (Scott Kazmir), but that is becoming less and less commonplace in trades during the season. Teams over-value prospects nowadays.

Stick, this is a fleecing.

While Gillick's transactions with this team so far have been quite poor, I cannot believe he would make this deal thinking he got fair value. Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows that. I can only assume this was ordered by the owners. I bet Uts is counting down the days to free agency. Only 3 more years, Uts!

Great. The Phils can take all that money they've saved on Abreu's contract and use it to pay comp to every business in the state tomorrow. I'm not even going to shrug my shoulders on this. This is an apalling, shite trade that even ed wade could not have made.

Jason, everything you said a bit back about gillick being a placeholder for amaro is true. The only plan gillick is working to is cutting costs.

Anyone planning on burning CBP to the ground right now goes with my good thoughts and best wishes. My only memory of the place was leaving on a high after seeing abreu hit a walkoff homerun against the dodgers. Cheers for trashing that, pat. Thanks a fucking bunch.

It's not that I necessarily disagree with the deal, it's just that everything that has transpired this season has been a shame, and this takes the prize.

On the brightside, from Rosenthal:

The Phillies' motivations for trading Abreu and others would be to change their chemistry and gain significant financial flexibility.

During his tenure with the Mariners, Phillies general manager Pat Gillick traded outfielder Ken Griffey Jr. after the 1999 season and lost shortstop Alex Rodriguez as a free agent the following year.

Gillick kept the team strong by reallocating the team's resources, gaining the rights to Japanese right fielder Ichiro Suzuki and acquiring several lesser veterans, building the 2001 Mariners into a 116-win juggernaut.

It's a salary dump, plain and simple. They're gonna blow up the team, and from that regard, it's probably not a bad thing.

Yankees are one of the only teams around who could suck up all of Abreu's contract, and they don't have a boatload of blue chip prospects to send back.

It's a salary dump.

Good point Dane...I'm not sure if Lidle would qualify as a class A free-agent for a first round pick, but maybe a sandwich pick.

C.J. Smith was the Yankkes #1 pick in 2005 so he is basically equal to what they would have recieved anyway if they let Lidle walk.

Abreu for a 27yo reliever and Duncan? Starting to make the Schilling and Rolen deals look better and better.

How much is a full page add in the Inquirer? We should get donations and run an add encouraging everyone to boycott the Phillies.

You bring the gas, I'll bring the torch!!!!

Q: I am a long-suffering Philadelphia sports fan. Waiting for Billy King to pull the trigger on an Iverson trade is like watching your girlfriend drink too much at a party. You KNOW she is going to eventually blow chunks. There is no doubt. It's gonna happen. And it's gonna be ugly. The real question is, where? Do you dare hold out hope that she finds her way to a toilet? Or do you brace yourself for the inevitable ride home ... where she proceeds to redecorate the interior of your car with bits of fish taco and the stench of tequila?
--Brendon, Philadelphia

SG: That's been the most underrated sports subplot of the summer -- every horrified Philly fan dreading the news that Billy King gave away Iverson. It's legitimately cruel. Hasn't this city suffered enough? In last week's NBA column I suggested that Philly ban pro sports for a calendar year for everyone's safety. And normally, whenever I write something about a fan base that could be perceived as negative, the fans always fight back in droves and I'm guaranteed some hate mail (like with the LeBron thing last week). But with that comment? Not only did I get zero complaints, some Philly fans even e-mailed just to say, "Right on, the sports scene is absolutely morbid right now, never seen anything like this before" and "I majored in psych in college and am becoming convinced that Philly sports fans are suffering from collective depression, all the signs are there."

Now ...

Depression is a serious illness and I would never make light of it. Obviously Philly fans aren't legitimately depressed. At the same time, couldn't there be a more harmless form of depression that's sports-related? When I was living in Boston in the late '90s and early '00s, we were absolutely battling sports depression before the Pats beat the Rams to win the Super Bowl -- it was the tail end of a titleless 15-year stretch when everything had gone wrong (Bias and Lewis, Bird's back, Neely's hip, McHale's feet, Nomar's wrist, Clemens fleeing to Canada, Parcells going to the Jets, Pitino and Duncan, etc.), and after awhile, we started EXPECTING things to go wrong. That's when you know there's a problem, when you're trapped in an ongoing state of pessimistic inadequacy and there's no way out. Hence, the depression connection.

Well, doesn't that describe Philly fans right now? Pessimistic inadequacy? After 22 years of suffering and falling just short, dealing with a relentlessly unhappy media getting everyone riled up, enduring dozens of ludicrous front-office moves, getting their hopes raised by some genuinely big-time superstars (Lindros, Iverson, McNabb, Roenick, Schilling, Cunningham) and big-time contenders (the '93 Phillies, '01 Sixers, multiple runs with the Eagles and Flyers), McNabb's bizarre collapse in the Super Bowl and the subsequent T.O. debacle seemed to push everyone over the edge ... and these fans were uber-pessimistic to begin with. Hell, in a column about the "Worst 20 Sports Fans" for my old Web site, I picked Philly fans No. 1 and braced for the deluge of hate mails that never happened. Instead, they e-mailed in just to say stuff like, "You're right. We're insane. There's something wrong with us."

And that was eight years ago! When I was signing books in Philly last December, right as the Eagles' season was going down the drain, the bitterness was almost disarming. As I wrote in my football column that week, "I couldn't believe the body language of the locals -- signing a sports book for these poor people was like signing a romance novel for Jennifer Aniston right after Brad and Angelina started dating. You can't even imagine how many people asked me, "Can you sign it? Maybe this will happen to the Eagles someday?" And that was before T.O. went to Dallas, the C-Webb trade backfired and the Mets ran away from the Phillies.

Which brings me back to my original point: On paper, Billy King can't screw up an Iverson trade because Philly fans would see right through the stereotypical three-nickels-for-a-quarter trade that never works. They're too smart for it. At the same time, he's Billy King. He's one of the worst GMs in any sport. He shouldn't have a job. And he's absolutely going to screw this up. There's no doubt. Even worse, he's dumping Iverson because he's made so many bad moves over the last five years, it's the only way to potentially improve the team -- they have no cap room and nobody else with any trade value, and he has to do SOMETHING because he's one more crummy year away from losing his job. Does that sound like a valid reason to trade a 33-point scorer for 60 cents on the dollar? I didn't think so.

If I were a diehard Philly fan, I would be doing everything possible to stop the inevitably dumb trade that's about to happen -- launching anti-King Web sites, protesting outside of radio stations, chanting Iverson's name at baseball games, you name it. To borrow Brendon's "drunk girlfriend" analogy, there's still time to throw her in a car and drive her home before she starts puking all over the place.

Lieby with a grand slam...trade him right now! We might actually find a taker.

Jason, the key phrase is "reallocating the teams resources." Yes, Gillick put together that great team, but the gap between the Phils ownership group and that is Seattle is enormous.

Oisin, what happened? I thought things were calm on your side of the pond?

I can't be doing with the salary dump line. I just can't. Abreu had, by all accounts, let himself be traded without the team he moves to having to take up his option. Gillick should have been trading from strength here. He gets a warm body in return for fasano, but he can't be bothered pushing a hard deal for abreu?

Does Lieberthal's grand slam increase his trade value? Hahahahaa

I have removed my curse word. I couldn't go through with it. For this one time only, your curse words are permitted. They are justified.

Buh-bye, Bobby. It was fun watching you walk a lot.

Just for once I would like to be on the good side of a trade were we actually get some above average prospects who can help this team. For every Dykstra and Wagner, there seems to be ten Rolens, Schillings, and now Abreus. Its inexcusable for the Yankees not to bat an eye when it comes to a prospect like Hughes or Tabata. I would have rather gotten Nixon and a couple of prospects from the Red Sox than this steaming pile we just got from the Yankees. Somewhere Larry Bowa is letting out an evil laugh as he finds out how little they had to give up to get Abreu and Lidle...

Touche kdon. I'm on 7 day weeks right now because of work, and could afford to be sanguine when it was crappy rumours. When all the crappy rumours turn out true, and it looks like crafty gillick allowed himself get talked into minimum return on a deal with one of the few farm systems which compares to our own, I kind of lose it. Its worse because gillick isn't going to try gambling this money on a mediocre FA. He's told us that. Its just cost cutting.

I can't even afford to get hammered tonight because I'm interviewing job applicants first thing in the morning.

P.S. Jason, you're too damn gracious. Gillick, that organisation are fuckin' arseholes the lot of 'em. I can't remember the last time I felt this low as a fan of this team. Its' like the ownership group came round, kicked in the door of our flat, pinned me to the ground and stuck a huge fork in each eye. Then when my distraught wife asked them why they did it, they shrug their shoulders and go 'its okay - he's a phillies fan. Its in the contract.'

should have packaged brett myers instead of lidle, since everyone wants him gone anyways...

i agree with Drama Queen, i'm more ticked at giving lidle up than abreu, because he would be off the books next anyway, and phils would get a pick when somebody else signs him...

we just got rid of 15 million dollars for next year. and given the OF free agents, it won't take 15 million dollars to replace .277 and 8 homeruns.

this isn't rolen or schilling. they arn't trading a player in his prime. abreu is going downhill, let the yanks pay 15 million for what you can get for 4 or 5.

Update: I have just purchased two tickets to tonight's game. Draw whatever conclusions you want from this bit of information.

Is Gillick getting paid by the Yankees?


Abreu could have been a valuable OF for the Phils next year -or- trade him for QUALITY PROSPECTS NOT QUANTITY!!!!!!


Lidle alone could have gone to another team for a couple of good players.


Burrells trade value will probably be higher during the offseason. He can still be a good OF next year. The right handed hitters in the lineup are lacking people who can hit for average and/or power. Burrell atleast has power.

Lets hope these rumors are just that and this trade includes Duncan or Proctor.

Just so youse know, I live in Charleston and have seen CJ henry play about 8 times this year....I would never expect to see him in amjor league uni.

Jon, bowa has been laughing at this team for two years...

Stubborn: Can you see into the future? Let's see if Abreu is at .277 with 8 HR at season end. Abreu has averaged 100 runs and 100 RBI for the past 5 years. That's what you have to replace.

Jay Weitz. -- Conclusion -- Dollar Dogs ?

I draw the conclusion that you are donating three boxes of powdered sugar donuts and a carton of Krimpets to Jon Lieber to increase his trade value.

Sorry to be so glib, fellas. I've learned to laugh rather than cry at times like these.

That Dude: Your scouting report confirms what I've been reading on the Webs about Henry. He's got some speed, but is unlikely ever to hit major league pitching.

The Phils better take Abreu's $15 million to sign a pitcher this offseason (Barry Zito). So far Gillick has been clueless, but I'm still going to the game tonight for some dollar dogs

Billy Mac: I forgot that was tonight. Truthfully, I was thinking more along the lines of "Hey, the Phils are playing pretty good baseball lately."

If they sign Zito, it'll just be to a contract that's too large (to get him to come here) and they'll have to trade him for a couple middle relievers in 2008 to the yankees.

No big name pitcher is going to sign to pitch in our ballpark with our team scoring for them.

All they need to see is Myers record and they will runnnn.

We can assume Lieberthal is gone, and that would mean, if payroll stays the same, that Gillick is playing with $32 million. Even if it is half, as everyone expects, pitching should be available for that kind of cash.

Wow, love the frequent use of the f-bomb on here today, and I'm feeling the urge to use it myself, but I'll obstain because I want to be professional about all this...ha!

Here's my take on the deal- hate and love it at the same time. Abreu doesn't do much for the Phillies anymore besides get on base and that isn't worth 15 mil a season. I'm so very, very glad the Yanks ate his entire salary...down right giddy here! The package with Lidle pisses me off. He was probably our most tradable comoditiy along with Dellucci because of demand and relatively low salaray. Packaging Lieber would have made me spunk! Oh wait, is that going to get edited? Anyway, they didn't get really anything worthwhile in return but they're off the books. Time to move on into another era of Phillies baseball. I know all you baseball knowledge gods out there in the blogsphere think you know that the owners are pocketing the money and the Phils will lose 100 next year...well, that may be true, but that's not too far off from what's happening this season now is it?! Let Gillick do what he does, give him the offseason, and see what he bring in '07. Damn people, and you called me the "drama queen"!

Clout- you need to calm that Abreu erection down. He gets on base...that's it. Plain and simple his game is going down hill rapidly. Reading the writing on the wall brother! You're all into scouting reports and stuff, so why don't you wise up and see what others see...a declining star in Abreu!

Queen: Guess we'll see who's right or wrong at season's end, won't we? Either Abreu is is a single-digit HR, .270 hitter, like you say or he's got 3-4 more productive years. And who needs his OB, right? This team is loaded with guys who have great strike zone judgment. LOL!!!!

I don't really buy the idea that Bobby is about to go downhill. Will we see 30 HR again or a .950 OPS? Maybe not but he still has his speed and has always been incredibly durable and he is what, 33? Unless his age is wrong, it would be very odd for a player of his skill type to slip dramatically at 33.

Even with the slip, he has a .427 OBP. That stat gets a pretty bad rap sometimes but try finding a statistic that corrolates better with runs scored. I really hope the Phils are serious about resigning Dellucci.

The only way this deal works is if the Phils put Dellucci in RF at like $3M per year and put the money saved back into the club. Of course, we know that won't happen, I'm just sayin'. If the payroll is 75M and Vic is in RF...really really bad.

Man. How many of you have been screaming for years to blow up this team? Well, the wish was granted today. This is what a blow-up looks like. It's long past due. And now we're going to bitch about that once it's finally happened?

Everyone's up in arms about the lack of value in exchange for Abreu and Lidle. I say, so what. I say Gillick just gave himself flexibility to build the team he wants. Yes, suddenly my faith in him has been restored - because he had the balls to do this deal. Because he had the clear vision after all that this team isn't going to win with Abreu.

This is not the kind of dark day equal to the Schilling or Rolen trades. Those were special players who the Phillies should not have had to let get away. Abreu has had ample opportunity to prove he is not that kind of player - and the Yankees are about to find it out for themselves as well. To me, this is the greatest day in Phillies history in a long time. I guess I stand on a totally different page with most of you. This is a day I have been waiting for for two years.

The PTBNL/s are an 18 year-old catcher, Sanchez, and a 20 year-old pitcher, Monasterios (or something similar). Neither is on John Sickels' list of top 20 prospects. Both play in the GCL--and are doing badly there.

Into the abyss, folks. This was much, much worse than my worst fears. I think what I'm most upset about is the inclusion of Lidle, who should have gotten us one decent prospect at least. He's 41-25, 3.53 in his career from Aug. 1 on. That's comparable to Zito. And we gave him away.

I'm with you, RSB. I like this deal because it pulls the plug - mercifully - on this year and starts rebuilding for next. Getting FAs requires money and they now have some of that.

I agree with pulling the plug, but my frustration comes from getting nothing back for two good players. I never heard of any of these prospects. What happened to Proctor at the very least, or even Duncan?

What are you talking about with flexibility, RSB? This move was a reflection that Gillick has NO flexibility, that he is just a hatchet man for cheap owners.

If you want to ignore the reports about slashing payroll, that's fine, I'm sure the sand tastes good. Amazing that you look to the team's two-time all star right fielder as the source of the problems and not the ownership group.

And I really can't believe those last two names...just ridiculous, I need to crank up some music and clean.

A source with knowledge of the deal told ESPN Insider Jerry Crasnick that the Phillies will pay Abreu $1.5 million in exchange for waiving the no-trade clause and accepting the condition that the Yankees will not pick up his option for 2008.

Trade just announced on TV and reported by ESPN -- other minor leaguers are
carcher Jesus Sanchez and pitcher Carlos Monasterios.

Whether or not anyone's heard of him, Henry was the Yankees' No. 1 draft pick, no. 17 overall, in 2005. I'll take my chances with that.

jimmy rollins had an OBP of .348, .338 the last two years and scored 119 and 115 runs. it is more important who hits behind you when factoring runs scored. look at a guy like mike sweeney who would get on at a .400 clip and only score 70 runs. also look at sweeney as a guy who was held on to too long and now is a $15 million dollar sink-hole in KC.

or consider that rico brogna had back to back years where he drove in 104 and 102 and scored 77 and 90 with the phils but nobody cared when we lost him.

scott hatteberg has a .418 OBP. want to pay him $15 million?

if you think abreu is not declining, take a look at his career stats again. 14 homers in 170 games. on pace for 13 this year. average dropping each of the last 3 years.

Carlos Monasterios...that makes all worth it!

The difference between what the Phillies got for Abreu & Lidle and what the Marlins got for Lowell & Beckett is startling. The Yankees have one of the weakest farm systems in baseball and Henry isn't even among their top 5 prospects. We can all have dreams and fantasies about what's happening here, but in the end, reality trumps them.

This team hasn't made the promise land (playoffs) since '93, and it is very apparent that this current squad will not lead the city there. So, Gillick decides to blast the team apart. Bell is gone...hip, hip, hooray! Fasano is gone, so what?! Bye-bye Lidle, nice knowing ya, but not that sad. Abreu is gone- on no, time to cry, he's a superstar! No he is not. Listen, I like Bobby Abreu, but he's not the player he once was. His power is gone...seriously gone! His average is well, average. He steals an occasional base and gets on base...that's it. His defense is suspect and he makes a ton of money. I'm glad his salary is gone if the organization puts it to good use. He is declining, and it happens...so it's good the Phils got rid of him now before it was too late and absolutely nobody wanted him without the Phils eating salary.

I agree OPS is probably the best measure of an offensive player, but stats don't tell the entire story. .427 on base % is awesome. But an .861 OPS is not worth 15 mil a season!!!

speaking of OPS, Pat Burrell's is .898 compared to Abreu's .861. Now, I'm not saying Burrell is the better player, but right there it is, make of it what you will.

But the best you get is .240 hitter in GCL ? I want to know what Gillick was negotiating all week. They got similar value for Sal Fasano.

clout, henry is apparently their #4 prospect, according to the yanks' post-game broadcast on xm.

I have to agree with Jason and Dajafi. I was resigned to losing Abreu at some point, but this whiffs of a hatchet job. Accepting barely warm minor league bodies suggests to me that the only thing the phillies were scared of was keeping abreu's contract for a minute longer than necessary. Gillick is on record as saying he doesn't want to buy pitchers through Free agency, and from what most have said, other FAs this year won't fill the gaps we need to fill. gillick also said he prefers short term rather than long term deals, so its clear the money isn't going to be ploughed into signing up utley, howard etc on burrell/abreu-type contracts.

Gillick's only plan is cost-cutting. this isn't a means to an end. it IS the end. I expect burrell to go in the offseason in a similar trade (if we're lucky).

Jason's right in another respect - may as well enjoy the phillies baseball while its still half decent. It's clearly not been planned that way, and any satisfaction we as fans are expected to derive from the local team is secondary to the main purpose. The only thing which explains today is the folding green stuff.

Any word on who we may be calling up to fill those two roster spots since none of the four ex-Yankee minor leaguers will likely be on this team anytime soon?

If the Phillies were to get a decent package in return for Abreu they would have had to eat a lot of the salary, much like the Thome deal. And paying players not to play on your team just doesn't make that much sense in my opinion. Yes, it was a salary dump, but time will tell if it was necessary and/or smart.

I just talked with my dad and we won't go to another Phils game for the foreseeable future. There is absolutely no positives from the Abreu/Lidle trade except for the fact that this team needed change. Besides that, nothing good came from this trade. The Phils didn't get one legimitate prospect/player who will help them in '07. Additionally, the Phils would probably have been better off to offer arbitration to Lidle and have another team sign him. That way they would have gotten a first-round pick.

Today's trade basically confirmed what I thought this team was doing - they are looking to reduce payroll to the $65-$70 million dollar range next year and tolerate at least 1-2 seasons of very mediocre teams.
With Abreu/Lidle trade and along with all of their impending FA, the Phils will take nearly $47 million off their payroll. If Lieber is traded, this figure increases to $54 million.

Granted, the Phils have some payroll flexibility next year but they need to get a starting RF, C, 3B, and at least two starting pitchers (if they trade Lieber). Plus, they will need to fill a few bullpen arms and a couple of bench spots. At the $65-$70 million dollar range, the payroll flexibility disappears kind of quickly. Also, the FA available this year at C and 3B are absolutely horrendous. There is a above average starter available at either position.

Additionally, the Phils' farm system is pretty weak right now and they don't have a single positional player (maybe Bourn is an exception) who will make an impact on this team until at least '08. As for the minor league pitching, they have a few promising arms but they are at the A/AA. While the Phils do have some really good homegrown talent, the drafts since 2003 have been below average and the first picks (Moss, Golson, Costanzo) have shown little to nothing to this date.

This all means that Gillick is going to need to go on one of the greatest streaks as a GM in order to make this team a playoff contender within the next year or two. With a payroll of $65-$70 million, Gillick won't have a ton of money to throw around and he will basically need to hit on every FA signing. No more garbage singings like this year's batch (Franklin, Nunez, Gonzalez). Also, it means no more terrible trades (Padilla). Plus, there is little to no help coming from the farm system until at least '08.

I predict that Gillick will have a mixed-track record on filling the roster this offseason. This organization reaks of losing and it will be a difficult sell to get any stud starting pitcher here because of Citizens Bank Park. Basically it means another year where Phils are short on pitching and will win about 75-80 games. I will continue to follow the Phils on radio or TV but will not go to a game. The only way Montogomery and the group of idiots sell this team is if it becomes so unprofitable. Hopefully fans will stop putting dollars into the pockets of Phils' ownership.

Too early to say who will fill open roster spots -- depends on other trades. Assuming they dont' acquire another outfielder in a deal, I would assume Roberson will be back again.

question: if the phils decide to re-sign lidle in the offseason, they would lose a draft pick for that, right?

So where do they go from here? They need a SP, so look for Mathieson to get the call. He looked impressive during the end of his first call up and you know they didn't want to send him down. If Lieber gets traded, enter Gavin Floyd, who has gotten better his last few starts.

Gillick will not spend heavy on FA pitcher, watch him try to build within and spend on a 3rd basemen and catcher, plus re-sign Dellucci (3 yrs, $12mil).

Next year's rotation (not saying it's great, just a prediction)-
1 Myers
2 Hamels
3 Mathieson
4 Wolf (1 or 2 yr deal?)
5 Floyd

Madson back to the pen as set up for Flash, Lieber hopefully gone. If Lieber is still here, they may let Wolf go.

It appears that they got a bunch of crap in this trade.

Correct. Phils would lose a draft pick to Yanks if they sign Lidle, assuming Yanks offer Lidle arbitration. Pick would depend if Lidle is classified as type a, b, or c free agent on the exact draft pick compensation. Since the Phils traded Lidle for nothing, it is obvious they have no interest in him.

I went back and read all these comments about Abreu, and I want people to know I will miss him. I like him. I just don't see him making this team win over this or next season, so why not move on? Same with Lidle. I know the on going joke about Lidle on here, but I liked that he was consistent. If the Phillies had a decent starting staff, Lidle would have been a great #4...but the staff sucks, so fans wanted more from him.

I wish Abreu the best, just like I did with Thome. Good men, who did well for the Phillies, but although saying good-bye is tough and heart wrenching, it's also sometimes necessary.

gr: Baseball America has Henry at #4 and Sickels has him at #6. BA also ranks the top 100 prospects in baseball which is a better indicator since #4 in a bad system like the Yankees might equal a #10 in a good system. Also, because Lidle is on the team this year, the Phils would not have lost a draft pick by re-signing him. However, they would've gotten a #1 pick if another team signed him and Elias rated him as a Type-A player.

Doc, Phils won't need a starter if they keep Madsen in the rotation. If they trade Lieber, I would expect Mathieson to get the call. In your next year rotation prediction, we better see one or two new faces there through trade or FA.

gr: I misread your post. I thought you were referring to what would happen if the Phils had kept him. Billy Mac's response is correct. I don't think the Phils will make any attempt to resign him, however.

Clout, Thanks for setting me straight on draft pick compensation rules. But I am curious how can Lidle be rated as type-A player when season isn't over yet ? Isn't this based on 2005/2006 stats ?

Why is everyone looking at this as a straight-up trade? This is to get payroll down and compete in the FA market this winter, which is going to have better players available than now, both minor and majors. Nobody has also said, on the record, that the team is going to cut payroll down to $65M. It's a tough day, people, but this is not the Francona years...

Mike H: Good point, we won't know how this plays out until we see what happens in the offseason. But I think the skeptics here have history on their side.
Billy Mac, I said "if" Elias gave him a Type A. They do indeed base it on past 2 seasons, usually release the list around Nov. 1. Based on Lidle's ERA, wins and IP, I think chances are good he'll be an A type player.

Mike H.: We're looking at it as a salary dump because there's no indication it's anything else. If they had paid $15 million on Abreu's salary, a la Thome, and gotten a couple of top prospects, I think people would be happier.

The problem with pulling a lot of fish out of the FA pool is that you're left without decent draft picks -- not an insignificant point considering how many teams will finish this season with better records than the Phillies.

Clout: More likely type B. I'm reading Lidle's inclusion as a sign they'll keep Lieber. Otherwise they're left without anything resembling a veteran pitcher except for Wolf.

RSB: Hats off to you for standing by your position. You too, DQ. I think what we're seeing, in the Yankees' unwillingness to give up anything more than Henry, is a redefinition of what prospects are worth on the trade market. If I were Pat Gillick, I'd be faxing my fellow GMs a list of former "top prospects" of the past few years who are now journeyman major leaguers.

Just got done watching Pat Gillick's press conference. The key phrase was "it's gonna take awhile." At least he's honest. Enjoy the losing, folks.

"Whether or not anyone's heard of him, Henry was the Yankees' No. 1 draft pick, no. 17 overall, in 2005. I'll take my chances with that."

Dude, Ive seen him play (alot), he will be lucky to get to 3A.

That Dude: So you've never seen a player improve after his first year in pro ball? Really?

The deal is good. Think of it this way. Pretend the Yankees gave us Mike Mussina. (19 million/year salary). That is about what we saved by having the Yankees pick up Abreu's tab for the next two years. Wouldn't we all be howling with laughter at what great deal we got.

"That Dude: So you've never seen a player improve after his first year in pro ball? Really?"

Sure, but good ML players very rarely struggle in low A ball. He is batting like 230 thusfar.

I understand the whole concept of salary dumping but I can't believe that PG couldn't at least get that fireballer pitcher Hughes from Trenton at least for these two guys.

I am bummed out and feel like we got fleeced by the G-D Yankees! I hate those NY teams.

I just hope that they will re-invest the money saved into next year's payroll instead of pocketing it.

This is a dark day for us Phils fans, this was the most lopsided deal that I remember in a looong time.

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