Notes from Gillick's post-trade press conference

Pat Gillick said it is unrealistic to expect the Phillies to get those “five wins” this season, or even next season. Here are the rest of the points made by Phillies GM Pat Gillick after today's blockbuster trade of star outfielder Bobby Abreu.

-- Gillick said the Phillies are still alive in the Wild Card race, even though he is clearly a seller at this point. Gillick indicated strongly that certain players will now get a chance to show what they can do, and sometimes those opportunities lead to good things. He indicated all the teams ahead of them have weaknesses.

-- David Dellucci will likely stay on through the rest of the season. Gillick considers him an underrated talent.

-- Expect Matt Smith, the Triple-A left-hander acquired in today's deal, to see action with the Phils at some point this season.

-- Expect at least one, possibly two more deals before Monday’s non-waiver deadline expires.

-- Mike Arbuckle had been working on a seperate deal involving another player last night that fell through this morning. Today’s deal came together quickly around 11 a.m.

-- Gillick said Abreu would have waived his no-trade clause for "about four teams."

-- Gillick said the key to assembling a team is having flexibility. He explained that about 25 percent of the team had either no trade clauses or 5 and 10 stipulations that made it difficult to move contracts.

-- Gillick indicated that Abreu’s no-trade clause dictated the course of this trade more than any other factor.

-- Without naming names, Gillick said a player’s no-trade clause has handcuffed his ability to make at least one deal recently.

-- The Phillies bought out Abreu’s club option for 2008. The deal was handled by Ruben Amaro and Abreu's agent. Abreu was approached regarding a possible trade about 10 days ago.

-- Gillick indicated that there is little to no activity among teams interested in Jon Lieber.

Comments

[gr]

a few extra notes, or things that i picked up on: (1) i missed the next season comment, i heard "this season." (2) dellucci is most likely not going anywhere. (3) gillick, after a long pause, said "about 4" for the number of teams bobby was willing to go to. i don't know what "about 4" means in numeric terms, but it sounds alot like 2, or 3 at the most. (4) there was a number of teams trying to get lidle, but it sounds as if the yanks went cold on taking on the more expensive lieber, who has been ineefective and is signed at more than twice lidle money through an extra year. sounds as if lidle was the saving piece to keep this deal form falling through the way the arbuckle deal did. (5) arbuckle is the guy who pushed for henry and sanchez, while gillick had seen monasteries throw. (6) arbuckle's defunct deal involved neither a player traded today, nor lieber. suspects would be lieberthal, burrell, rhodes, cormier, or gordon.

[Will]

As I said in the other thread, Gillick frank honesty is refreshing. The phillies are working towards long-term success, not the immediate and immediate playoff appearance/first round loss. This actually makes me want to go see the phils more next season. They HAVE A PLAN.

Gillick makes moves that conform to that plan. Or he plugs immediate holes with players that can easily be let go.

[gr]

the guys over at good fight corroborate the "no contende next yearo" statement by gillick. i totally missed that. yikes.

[Will]

gr - reports say that Abreu had greenlighted any trades with the Mets, Yanks, or Sox. Probably would have demanded the extra year for other teams, like the Dodgers, etc.

[J. Weitzel]

Thanks, gr.

[Billy Mac]

Will, What is Gillick's plan other than to dump salary and stock the minors with low grade prospects ? Was Ryan Franklin and Arthur Rhodes part of this plan ? Was not addressing starting pitching and bringing up AA pitchers who were not ready another part of the plan ? I'll reserve final judgment till the offseason to see what he does with this "payroll flexibility", but till now I am not optimistic.

[kdon]

What is THE PLAN again exactly? OK, cut payroll, got that part...and...hmmm, plan, plan...Franklin, GOnzalez, Fassano, Nunez...will they be a part of it?

No, OK, so the plan is we replace Abreu with Vic/Delluci, replace those two with Roberson, play Nunez at 3b next year, wait four years for a bunch of c-level prospects to turn into superstars at about the time Myers, Utley and Howard leave and...oh, oh, did you mean the plan the owners had for their savings, yes that is some plan indeed.

[Tom Durso]

Nice coverage today, Jason. I really cant believe it came to this -- we just traded our best hitter for a couple of bags of peanuts.

[Will]

I believe I said "Or he plugs immediate holes with players that can easily be let go." This would apply to all the people that you mentioned kdon and BM. Oh and ryan franklin was designated for assignment. Hence the "can easily be let go" part.

and tom, Chase is our best hitter. Bobby was good at walking though, which was awesome when there was a man on 2nd and one out. Really set up the DP for Burrell very well.

[Billy Mac]

How does signing Nunez for 2 years fit into this alleged plan ?

[Alby]

Peanuts? We also got peanuts? Wait, that changes everything!

[MG]

Ed Wade did not alot of damage to pick this team in the current position where they are at. Alot of back-ended contracts, no-trade clauses, and trades that depeleted the farm system.

There was some truth to what Gillick said but he is totally full of crap about this team contending this year or next year. If he was truly honest, he would say that the performance of this year's team indicated they could not contend for a playoff position. Therefore, we need to evaluate this team's evaluate and "rebuild" for the next 2 years. There is no way the Phils pitching will dramatically improve by next year and there is litle immediate help available in the farm system.

More troubling is that the drafts since 2003 have been below average. The Phils are going to find that the farm system is going to yield vary little fruit in '07 or '08. What is really going to occur is a reduce payroll with a team that struggles to place a real contender on the field.

[kdon]

Alby you rule! That made my day.

[clout]

I watched the entire press conference live. Gillick said it would take beyond next season to rebuild the team. He did not put a timetable on it. MG, your analysis is correct, given the sad state of the farm system, the mediocre prospects being acquired and the lack of pitching depth, I think getting back to contender status within 3 years is going to be difficult.

[Billy Mac]

From Keith Law, ESPN insider

"The Yankees get a big OBP boost and the best fifth starter they've had all year, and they did it by using money (of which they have a lot) instead of prospects (of which they have few once you exclude Philip Hughes and Jose Tabata). The Phillies, meanwhile, get some salary relief for 2007, but not much else.

Bobby Abreu may or may not have lost his power -- I think it's overblown, as he's still on pace for 40-plus doubles and doesn't look like he's lost bat speed or raw strength -- but he's still one of the best offensive players in the game. He's about to post his eighth straight 100-walk season and has the fifth-best OBP in the game. The Yankees have been running a Bernie Williams/Aaron Guiel platoon out in left, and while Guiel has hit a few homers since he came to the Bronx, he's still a four-A player who has no place on a contending club's roster. Even if Abreu's home run total remains low, he's worth two extra wins to the Yankees if he takes at-bats away from Bernie and Guiel, and more if his home-run power comes back.

Cory Lidle is a finesse right-hander with excellent control who will probably struggle to be a league-average starter in the American League at this point, but he is an enormous improvement over Sidney Ponson, Kris Wilson and Aaron Small -- whom the Yanks have employed as fifth starters this year. Lidle's best pitch is a splitter, but his fastball is a tick below average so he has to have good command to be effective and keep the ball out of the seats. Since the guys he's replacing have been so bad, he's still a one-to-two-win upgrade for the balance of the season, making this one of the biggest impact deals any club will make this month.

The Phillies finally came off their demands for top prospects and instead chose to dump the two contracts, saving $18 million in 2007 by moving Abreu. The only player they acquired with any sort of major-league value right now is lefty specialist Matt Smith, a 27-year-old veteran of the Yankee farm system.

The Phils did acquire some interesting prospects. Shortstop C.J. Henry is best known as the guy the Yankees took in the 2005 draft even though right-handed pitcher Craig Hansen was still available. Henry is a raw five-tool talent and still just 19 years old. His swing is long, but he generates plus power and is a good baserunner with well-above-average speed. He has struggled in the South Atlantic League this year across the board. Though he has the physical tools to stay at short, it remains to be seen how his body develops and whether he outgrows the position. The Phillies also acquired two players from the Yankees' Gulf Coast League affiliate, athletic catcher Jesus Sanchez and hard-throwing right-hander Carlos Monasterios, both of whom are so far away that they're more pre-prospects than prospects.

So the three minor-league players the Phils acquired aren't going to help the big-league club until at least 2009 or 2010, and none is good enough to be the centerpiece for a subsequent deal. As a result, the Phillies haven't done anything to improve their club for 2007 except add financial flexibility, but with a thin free-agent market this winter, it's not clear that they'll have superior outlets for spending that money."

[RickSchuBlues]

So let me get this straight: those opposing the trade today would have prefered the Phillies just soldiered on and on eternally with Abreu, believing his presence alone would guarantee a shot at contention? Oh - yes, I almost forgot the world of difference he's made to the Phillies' chance of contending this year. Wait, though: it's not the right fielder's fault, it's the pitching staff! Right. Well, now there's a chance to use some of the money swallowed up by Abreu and Lidle (and Bell, and soon many others) on pitching, indeed on a multitude of other players, ones with heartbeats, ones who could be given a chance to show what they can do for this team, instead of running the same players out there every season, who don't quite seem to be helping it win a damn thing.

Do I care if the Phillies don't win next year? Not nearly as much as I would if they had left the team essentially the same. Because that wasn't working, either, and it wasn't going to work. Besides that, I firmly believe this trade represents an opportunity to become a better team - perhaps not immediately, but as Will has said, as long as there is a *direction*, I can handle a period of transition. The past two seasons have been exercises in pure denial, wasted time, and frustration over management's refusal to acknowledge that the flawed core it had assembled years ago was just not working out. We now have the makings of a fresh start. That's all any of us could have asked for at this point.

[Matt]

RSB--if I could write it any better, I would. Instead I'll just strongly second that.

[MG]

This team did need a change but giving away proven assets for essentially "some magic beans" is not the way to improve this team. No player from any of the recent trades is likely to improve this team in the next year or two.

Funny thing is that I have been listening to the WFAN this afternoon while doing work. They basically are sure that this move will probably put Yanks over Sox. Plus, they basically laughed at what crap the Phils accepted in this trade. Smith is regarded as such as non-factor that he couldn't even make the major league club (even with the Yanks pitching troubles this year and last year). As for Henry, is was probably a mistake draft pick by the Yanks and they weren't too high on his future. One of those amazing "tools" who probably won't ever put it together at the MLB level.

Here's to plenty of "heart" and 75-80 wins next year. Yeah!

[Jon]

Agreed.

[Jon]

With RSB that is.

[kdon]

"Wait, though: it's not the right fielder's fault, it's the pitching staff! Right. Well, now there's a chance to use some of the money swallowed up by Abreu and Lidle (and Bell, and soon many others) on pitching,"

Seriously, this idea that the team will reinvest the money is a fairytale...Gillick has said that he doesn't like free agent pitchers and they didn't dump Abreu's salary so they could sign a free agent. If they trade for WIllis and sign him to a long deal or overpay for Zito, I would rethink this deal, but it ain't happening. The money is going to be pocketed.

"So let me get this straight: those opposing the trade today would have prefered the Phillies just soldiered on and on eternally with Abreu, believing his presence alone would guarantee a shot at contention?"

This has to be one of the funnier comments I've read in a while...soldier on eternally, WTF does that mean? If you couldn't do better than low level prospects, you keep him for next year. It's not that difficult.

I've yet to see anyone provide even the slightest bit of evidence that Abreu has hurt the team because of his presence...nothing gaurantees a shot at contention, but a 100 RBI, 100 R, 420 OBP, 40 2B 30 SB right-fielder goes a pretty damn long ways towards that goal.

Between 2001 and 2005 the Phillies won at least 86 games four times. In the pevious 14 years, they did it ONCE.

The pitching and the manager have been terrible. That is a fact. Some of Wade's long term deals have hurt the club (Burrell, Lieberthal, Bell, WOlf, J-Roll maybe) but Abreu's wasn't one of them.

Personally, I have a very simple PLAN for developing a good team. Keep the players who are good and dump the players who are bad. By any possible measuring stick, Abreu is in the former category. This seems like a fairly simple philosophy, but it's obviously lost on some people.

Ugg, with fans this gullible, no wonder

[Oisin]

RSB - Value, that's what I wanted out of this deal. Value. And we got nothing except cost cutting. I'm not going to try and read anything longer term or more complex into this trade because it does exactly what it says on the label.

And I don't like it because it says to me that the period of transition will likely outlast the current gm - if they're not trading for prospects that can help them in the next two or three years, then that's what I have to assume. So Gillick's not here to plan a new start, he's just here to ruthlessly slim down the payroll. And if he doesn't have a plan, then we're back to the old favourites, the guys who employed him, the brain trust. Who have shown exemplary planning skills in the last 10 years.

If we had traded abreu for value, or we had walked away and worked hard to trade him in the offseason for value, for something could avail of the skills of utley, howard, maybe hamels, maybe myers in 2 years time, then I would have been okay with it.

[Greg]

Great point Oisin.

These prospects are not going to be around (if ever) until 2010. That means the Phillies are looking toward 2010.

Long after Howard and Utley are both in pinstripes.

[Lake Fred]

At least when the Marlins dismantled their teams, they rewarded the fans with a World Series Titles the year before. We can look back to last year when we missed the wild card by one game. Part of being a Phillies fan is long years of suffering. We're just paying our dues this year...and next year...and the year after that and then in the year 2012 the Mayan calendar ends!

[Jon]

The only thing I am wondering is that how did it go from Hughes to Proctor to Duncan to Henry and the other cast of characters? There was a time when Milledge's name was being invoked. There was a time when Nixon's name was being mentioned. That being said, I don't mind the Abreu move, as long as the Phillies actually spend a good chunk of money this winter. They can't afford to be blown away by other teams with regard to their current needs. If Aramis Ramirez is available, they need to do whatever they can to get him to be our third basemen. As for catcher, I guess it will be Ruiz and Coste (since the FA crop is weak). While I don't mind that, I think that Ruiz needs to be up here learning this staff and getting a better feel for hitting at the Major League level. Who cares if Lieberthal plays twice a week. Its not like he is going to be here next year...

[Lake Fred]

Fox says the Phils get the Yanks first round draft pick next year, too.

[Lake Fred]

Oops, that was their 2005 first round draft pick, C.J. Henry. My apologies for poor reading skills.

[Tim]

let's hope they keep these trades going. rhodes or cormier is next!

[Brian]

If possible, I'm on both sides here:

On one hand, I can buy the argument that we needed to get rid of Abreu and move forward. His salary, his lackadaisical play, his selfishness and refusal to move to lead-off spot won't be missed. Yes, he got on base a lot and in the past had good power numbers, but the bottom line is that we just didn't win with him--at least to the degree necessary to make the playoffs.

On the other hand, to get essentially nothing usable now or potentially ever for Abreu (and Lidle!) is embarrassing. Yes, I'm embarrassed to be a Phillies fan right now.

In the long run, Gillick better have a plan. We still have a decent core with Utley and Howard, but if we can't find the missing pieces of the puzzle, and fast, they're not going to want to stick around much longer, either.

[EastFallowfield]

Cross posted at Philliesphans.com:

Watching Baseball Tonight to see more on Abreu from the 'experts' and see them flash the WC standings.

I know we were told we can't win it because we were 10th in the WC standings earlier this week. But now we're 7th. A win tonight and we're within a game of 3rd in the WC race. And only 4 back in the loss column behind the leading Reds. 3 back of the 2nd place Dbacks. And the same amount of losses or fewer than all the other WC "contenders".

Is it really impossible to make up 4 games in the loss column in 2 months?

Yeah, I know we basically stink, but so do all these other teams as far as I can tell.

[MG]

One thing I don't want to see the Phils do this year is just needlessly spend alot of money on veteran re-treads. The Pirates did that this year (Burnitz, Randa, Casey) and it blew up in their face.

If Phils are going to go with young pitching next year (Mathieson, Hamels, Floyd?) next year, they have got to get some guys to play defense. A supposed strength coming into the season, the Phils' defense has been horrible. Their outfield defense has been awful. Burrell is a mummy in LF and his only redeeming defensive quality is his rifle-arm. Abreu also was below-average in write. Probably the most disappointing has been Rowand. Hasn't hit at all and his defense has stunk. Knew he didn't have much of an arm but his range has weak too. Phils have got to get somebody in either CF/RF you can actually play some quality defense.

Infield defense has also stuck too with the exception of Rollins. Howard has regressed this season and at times looks like he doesn't want the ball hit to him. Utley has improved but he is still only an average 2B. David Bell was supposed to be this Gold Glove caliber player and I didn't see it. He was ok and had a strong arm but couldn't make a play while charging a ball. Plus the catching position of Lieberthal/Fasano also provided little in the way of defense. Average to below average arms and not great at blocking WPs.

[kdon]

Eastfallow, I've wanted to make your exact point for a week, but I'm kind of an optomist for this team and I figured I would get laughed at.

I agree, if all those teams were bunched around Cincinnati, we wouldn't have a chance, but if would really only take a four or five game winning streak to get into second or third place. The Phillies have problems, but the NL stinks. I'd say the chances are about 1/20, but what the hell, a pennant race is a pennant race. Oh, wait, that's right, we just traded Abreu and Lidle for some teenagers...never mind.

[Billy Mac]

Phils have called up Michael Bourn.

[RickSchuBlues]

For those who have a problem with the 'value' received in return for Abreu, get a grip on reality. That's what you get when your only option comes down to negotiating with one team, the only one which could afford his bloated contract. That's what happens when you have to get them to add $12 million to the payroll. Adding that much money is not to the Yankees' advantage. They believe Abreu will make that increased payroll worth their while, but they didn't believe it was so much of a no-brainer that they could also afford to give up prime prospects *and* a good deal of flexibility. It's not as much of a one-sided deal as it appears. Believe me, the Yankees aren't doing any laughing over this, and by the same token Phillies fans shouldn't be crying in their beer.

The other option, keeping Abreu (is that a more agreeable way to put it, kdon?), I believe would have proved to be an even less popular and certainly less sensible move. Bobby Abreu is not the difference-maker between a contending team and a non-contending team. If this team is going to shed payroll and try to develop next season, it makes little sense to keep Abreu around, any way you want to look at it.

If you think being within six games of the wild card means they have a chance to win anything, you're conveniently ignoring the 46-54 record, and the ability of the pitching staff to possibly make up that deficit and get the Phillies on top of seven other teams. If you really like those odds and think that Abreu was going to help lead the 2006 Phillies to an exciting postseason, I'd say you're in far worse denial than the ownership which you so revile. If you believe those owners are going to just pocket all the money saved from the deposed contracts, that the "only plan is a salary dump", which is an "end it itself": I share your skepticism of Phillies ownership, but beyond that, how the hell do you know what they intend to do with the money? How can you say with any assurance they have no plan, and we're all just suckers to believe the money will be reinvested? I don't think they're going to go after any free agents this off-season, either. But if Gillick is shrewd enough, this can certainly be a competitive team next year. There has been no wholesale dismantling. Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle are gone. Okay. Rollins, Howard, Utley, Rowand, Dellucci, Myers, Gordon, Hamels, Wolf, and even Burrell are all still here. Recognize any of those names? With even a decent off-season, this team finishes .500 next year, and will be a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch doing it.

[RickSchuBlues]

Calling up Bourn is interesting, to say the least. I'll interpret that as meaning another trade is in the works; you wouldn't bring him up to sit, I wouldn't think.

[Billy Mac]

RSB, I am thinking the same thing. Does this mean a trade of Rowand ? Why do you bring up Bourn to be a 5th outfielder and sit the bench ?

[GJ]

Did Bobby need to be moved now or could Gillick have waited for the off-season to make a move for Bobby that would have brought some value? That is the thing that gets me. To give up what is arguably our most-valuable trade commodity for next to nothing is disappointing to say the least. There was no compelling reason to move Bobby now to get nothing in return. If this was the best offer from the Yankees with their backs to the wall, then we should have said “no thanks” and tried to trade Bobby in the off-season. We truly do look like fools here. I agree with those that say this is just a cost-cutting move. It is addition by subtraction. All we as fans want is those additions to be to the win column and not the owner’s bottom line.

[Ed]

Wow. RSB, I had always thought you had some credibility as a baseball fan, but these recent posts have me re-thinking that.

***
"So let me get this straight: those opposing the trade today would have prefered the Phillies just soldiered on and on eternally with Abreu, believing his presence alone would guarantee a shot at contention? Oh - yes, I almost forgot the world of difference he's made to the Phillies' chance of contending this year."
***

I think this is a case of philly fans deciding not to like someone and then running with it. The phillies are not in playoff contention, but it's hardly Abreu's fault. The culprits, in descending order, are probably: Starting pitching, poor infield defense, poor bullpen. Add the lack of production in our 7-8-9 spots (mostly 3B and C), and there you have it.

Now, if trading Abreu got us some help in those areas, then I would have been all for it.

But, RSB, you try to make an argument here...

***
"Wait, though: it's not the right fielder's fault, it's the pitching staff! Right. Well, now there's a chance to use some of the money swallowed up by Abreu and Lidle (and Bell, and soon many others) on pitching, indeed on a multitude of other players..."
***

There are two problems with this:
1. There is no indication that the Phillies plan on using that money to get players. In fact, we have the opposite.

2. Even if they were to use that money - who is going to be available??? Find me a pending FA 3B or C or RF who will be more productive than Abreu next year, and I'll say go for it.

This team just has no clue. And I'm starting to see that our fans, for the most part, have no clue. We've scorned Abreu, saying he has no drive, no leadership, etc. Or maybe that he doesn't have the fire, or doesn't go for the hit, or something nuts where he somehow argue that his .427 obp is actually a detriment to the team. Well, we were dead wrong. This guy was an important piece to have in the lineup, and our failure wasn't having him in the lineup every year, it was failing to surround him with the right pieces.

For example, where's our true leadoff hitter? Rolllins is so overrated as a hitter, it's ridiculous.

Where's our 3B hitter? Every team has a productive 3B somewhere in the pipeline, where is ours?

Where's our slap-hitting, pesky 8 hole hitter? For a while, it was Fasano/Lieberthal. Not good.

And why should we care about the prospects we got, when we're not going to be able to use them to win? Contrary to RSB's arguments, there definititely IS a sense of urgency here, b/c although this was Utley and Howard's first full years - they're 27/28 years old!!! Not 23 like Miguel Cabrera. Not 25 like Pujols. Not 23 like David Wright. So... right in the period where our consensus best players are hitting their primes, we're preparing for a 6 year plan to contend. Brilliant.

People say they're excited for next year, to see the staff we trot out there. I can understand - I was actually excited to see the team Florida put out there, not b/c I'm a Florida fan, but because they had a great, young lineup. We will have nothing of the sort. I'm sure I'm overreacting right now b/c of my sense of despair, but I think for the most part this is true: The Phillies are a moribund franchise, on the level of KC and Cincy - nothing that can carry us in the present day, and nothing that's imminent to help us in the future. I just can't see how this team will contend in any less than 5 or 6 years, right when our best players will be 33 or 34 and ready to be traded for a 27 year old AAA relief pitcher.

[EEd]

And if it sounds like I'm annoyed with RSB personally, that's only partly true. It's probably just my anger at the Phillies being transferred to whoever RSB is. But also, it's because it's clear that RSB has been drinking the Phillies' kool-aid... you're buying the company line, despite "sharing our sketicism of the ownership" or however you put it above.

***
"I don't think they're going to go after any free agents this off-season, either. But if Gillick is shrewd enough, this can certainly be a competitive team next year."
***

uhhh... so they're not going after free agents, but they'll have a shrewd off season? Exactly what are they going to trade? Which prospects are they going to develop?

***
"There has been no wholesale dismantling. Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle are gone. Okay. Rollins, Howard, Utley, Rowand, Dellucci, Myers, Gordon, Hamels, Wolf, and even Burrell are all still here."
***

ummm, you've been calling this the "blowing up the team" that we've so desperately needed, but then you say there's no wholesale dismantling? Which do you want?

And of the players you list, only Howard, Utley, Myers, and Hamels are certain contributors for the next 3-4 years.

***
"Recognize any of those names? With even a decent off-season, this team finishes .500 next year, and will be a hell of a lot more enjoyable to watch doing it."
***

If there's going to be no free agents, and if there's not much to trade away for pieces, exactly what will constitute a "decent off-season"? Makes no sense at all.

[RickSchuBlues]

GJ, the Phillies tried all winter to trade Abreu, with no success. This off-season, he'd have been a year older and coming off a far less impressive season. What makes you think Abreu could have brought anything more in the off-season? His salary would still have knocked all but four teams out of the running, and there additionally not have been the urgency felt by a contender to get itself over the top. I would argue that they probably wouldn't even have gotten as much as they did today if they'd waited, plus they'd still be stuck with that lingering albatross even longer. To me, they'd only look like fools if they hadn't finally pulled the trigger and do what they had to do.

The Phillies are playing like a rejuvenated team today. Coincidence?

[Ed]

And finally:

"If you think being within six games of the wild card means they have a chance to win anything, you're conveniently ignoring the 46-54 record, and the ability of the pitching staff to possibly make up that deficit and get the Phillies on top of seven other teams. If you really like those odds and think that Abreu was going to help lead the 2006 Phillies to an exciting postseason, I'd say you're in far worse denial than the ownership which you so revile. "

These are all arguments for trading Abreu for valid pitching help. We haven't done that at all. The money won't be used to sign an FA pitcher (see Gillick's comments prior, and see lack of FA pitchers). We got nothing we can trade for a pitcher.

To extend those arguments into an argument that Abreu has no value period is a gross miscalculation.

[Ed]

Oh, for goodness' sake, RSB:

***
"The Phillies are playing like a rejuvenated team today. Coincidence?"
***

No. That's that the Phillies do when there's no pressure on them to win at all. We've seen this the last 5 years. We're now officially selling, giving up on the season. Has nothing to do with being free of Abreu or whatever you're insinuating.

Plus, florida, while fun to watch, while full of great young players, is pretty terrible this year too. They beat up on a 22 year old anibal sanchez. Woo hoo.

[RickSchuBlues]

What I'm sick of here is people calling my "credibility as a baseball fan" into question. Disagree is you will, but leave it at that. You can dissect my arguments all you want and respond in a condescending, rhetorical fashion, but understand that you're leaving all kinds of unaddressed points by the wayside.

I really have no idea what would cause someone to feel their opinion and knowledge was so irreproachablr and so final so as to disqualify the dissenting opinion of another. That kind of arrogance is unacceptable. We can disagree and debate 'til the cows come home, but don't presume you have the absolute answers and that my perspective is so warped that you have no choice but to piss all over my opinion by saying that I lack credibility. I would be content to let the more civilized readers here to make up their own mind about what I have to say, but my instincts are not to passive when I am unreasonably attacked by someone who believes they *know* they are right.

[RickSchuBlues]

Well, Ed, are *you* kidding? Yeah, the Marlins have been so wretched that they came into the doubleheader ahead of the Phillies in the standings. And all Sanchez had done in his previous five starts was go 4-0 with a 1.42 ERA. Yeah, total pushovers.

[Casey]

This guy was an important piece to have in the lineup, and our failure wasn't having him in the lineup every year, it was failing to surround him with the right pieces. --Ed

That should go on his tombstone.

[Ed]

Oh relax, RSB. Passionate debating shouldn't be avoided... have some thicker skin. If it bothers you, just realize that my opinion of you doesn't really matter b/c it's purely based on 3 or 4 posts on some random phillies blog.

Instead, tell me why my arguments to your posts are wrong, b/c I really am curious how you can come to some of your conclusions.

And finally, we have a better record than the Royals, and the Phillies stink. So saying that the Marlins are ahead of us in the standings just doesn't hold water. And no first year pitcher is Roger Clemens, no matter how hot he was in his last few starts. You know better than that, surely.

[RickSchuBlues]

All that said, Abreu handled the constant rumors and the trade itself with total class. The moment when trade was annouiced at the park and Abreu and the fans had a mutual lovefest was kind of a surreal moment in Philadelphia sports history.

I think he's a great hitter and a great person but not a winning ballplayer. I'm sure he'll have success with the Yankees, but it won't prove a thing to me. The Yankees are established winners, not to be affected by Abreu's approach to the game one way or the other. The Phillies were and are a different story.

[Jose Jose Jose Joseeeee]

Ok well as a Mets fan, I really wish you guys hadn't done a deal with the devil. Some mets fans are happy to have Abreu out of the division but WHY THE YANKS?? We as mets fans hate the yankees a hundred times more than we hate the phils, and i understand that PG's major goal here was to dump the salary but was there really no other option (in terms of getting some sort of major league talent)?? I understand that the no-trade clause hindered anything major happening and PG was simply happy dumping salary but can someone please tell me what the general phils consensus is on this one?

[Cable]

Is that 31 for Utley now?

[Bob D]

Alby, that comm ent was great!

Maybe we can also trade Lieber to the Red Sox for a year supply of peanuts for each fan that attends a game next year. Maybe then people will come out and watch the Phils AAAA team.

Watchout now the Phils have moved into 2nd place WooHoooooooooooooooo!