Manuel: Gordon was already sore in Spring Training

Following a 4-3 loss to the Braves, manager Charlie Manuel said the Phillies have shut down closer Tom Gordon, who will head back to Philadelphia to have his shoulder examined.

Manuel said Gordon is experiencing the same symptoms in his right shoulder that knocked him out of action last August. The 39-year-old right-hander, who had blown 3-of-8 save chances with a 4.82 ERA and 12 hits over 9 1-3 innings, will be examined today by team medical director Michael Ciccotti.

This isn’t the first time Gordon has visited Ciccotti this year. In March, Gordon cut out of Spring Training and flew back to Philadelphia for what was termed by Phillies assistant GM Ruben Amaro Jr. as a "routine medical exam." That information was misleading.

"His shoulder was sore in Spring Training when we decided to shut him down," Manuel verified in his post game press conference. "It was a little stiff and sore ... I've been concerned about it since Spring Training ... Yeah. I'm concerned about 'Flash.’"

No timetable was given for Flash’s return, but the Philadelphia papers speculated he could miss significant time, perhaps more than a just a 15-day trip to the DL.

Aside from the misinformation passed along in March, the Phillies front office did not provide the team with a viable alternative in case Gordon went down, forcing Manuel to move No. 1 starter Brett Myers into the bullpen. Myers is now expected to take over Gordon’s role as closer, which means the team will again hold auditions for the setup job. Ryan Madson, Geoff Geary and Antonio Alfonseca are in the mix. No word yet on who the Phils plan on adding to the 25-roster when Gordon inevitably goes on the DL, but with Barry Bonds and the Giants on deck, it could mean the return of left-hander Matt Smith.

Comments

[joe]

good thing that the myers move is working out...

[gr]

"with Barry Bonds and the Giants on deck, it could mean the return of left-hander Matt Smith"

...hahahah -- cause we need a lefty to walk bonds on 4 pitches high and inside?

[J. Weitzel]

From the previous thread, MG said:

"This is the kind of game a good team finds a way to win. Now 1-5 against the Braves. Until the Phils find a way to win close game against good teams, they shouldn't be taken seriously."

This is absolutely correct. I'd give them a month to prove they can hang with the best teams in the NL until I start taking calls for the Liebers, Burrells and Rowands.

Speaking of Burrell, has anyone noticed he's 0-for-17?

And Wes Helms. How has he helped this team?

[GM-Carson]

We're in trouble this season. We continue to play stupid baseball. Sure we'll go on mini-streaks and look like everything clicks, but overall this season is a bust all-around.

[JZ]

The Phillies organization reminds me of my alma mater and how it used to report rape cases.

Year after year, the number 0 appeared under "Rape" in the crime report the university put out.

When reporters questioned the seven reported rapes one year on file with the police, none of which appeared in the university report, university officials said, "Oh, well, the incidents happened off-campus so we didn't report them."

Why is the Phils' management so afraid of the truth?

Side note, this gem of a quote on philly.com this morning makes me wonder why Manuel is still managing, at all, anywhere:

"You mean I did something right?" said Manuel, referring to the double switch. "Damn. I'll mark it down."

Ugh.

[Will]

"hold auditions"?? I think this is a little stretched. The phils had pretty much designated Alfonseca as the set-up man before the Myers move, and he had performed well in that role. I don't see why we shouldn't assume that Alfonseca is the de facto set-up man now.

[GM-Carson]

Wes Helms is just as slow as Burrell and is a double play waiting to happen. We suck at 3rd base...and don't even mention Nunez.

Burrell is not hitting and neither is Howard, that's 2 outs in the middle of the lineup...hello L.O.B.'s!

[lekh tiztayen]

As bad as Gordon's been, this puts us right back to where we were in Spring Training, only with a weaker rotation. Back then we had a decent closer and no one behind him, which is essentially where we are now. I like Geary and Madson, but not as setup men. It also seems that Chuckie may be overusing Alfonseca a bit. So now we may need another setup guy or a closer. Frankly, I don't even trust Flash once/if he returns, his career could be toast. How about Hamels, Happ, Carrasco, and Utley for Chad Cordero...I know this is a little less than Bowden's been asking for for his league average closer...on a serious note though, any chance at getting Al Reyes from the Rays. I know he was hurt last year, but in '05 he had a 2.15 ERA for St. Louis and was one of their most important players. Also a bit concerning is that 2005 was the only time he pitched more than 19 games since 1999. Worth a shot if it doesn't cost much, but I doubt he's even available.

[lekh tiztayen]

As bad as Gordon's been, this puts us right back to where we were in Spring Training, only with a weaker rotation. Back then we had a decent closer and no one behind him, which is essentially where we are now. I like Geary and Madson, but not as setup men. It also seems that Chuckie may be overusing Alfonseca a bit. So now we may need another setup guy or a closer. Frankly, I don't even trust Flash once/if he returns, his career could be toast. How about Hamels, Happ, Carrasco, and Utley for Chad Cordero...I know this is a little less than Bowden's been asking for for his league average closer...on a serious note though, any chance at getting Al Reyes from the Rays. I know he was hurt last year, but in '05 he had a 2.15 ERA for St. Louis and was one of their most important players. Also a bit concerning is that 2005 was the only time he pitched more than 19 games since 1999. Worth a shot if it doesn't cost much, but I doubt he's even available.

[lekh tiztayen]

sorry for the double post

[J. Weitzel]

This is a better National League this season. Of all the local writers, it appears Paul Hagen has been the most accurate with his prediction of third place, with improvements to the NL West and Braves. I'm not sold on Milwaukee, however, though the addition of Suppan has made them stronger, as predicted.

[bathtubhippo]

god, i hope we don't bring up smith again. he needs time to work it out. i bet manuel wouldn't even use him anyway (or would use him in terrible spots). i really think it'd be better to stick with 11 pitchers (rather than a 12th that just sucks up roster space) and call up coste to give us another bench bat. too many nights we run out of guys on that bench, and given that nunez is incapable of what i'll refer to as "hitting" we're really short a couple on that bench anyway.

[GM-Carson]

I want the Phils to bring up Coste just to see if he makes a difference. We banter about it all the time on here...I want to see who's right and who's wrong. Personally I think Coste should have been the backup catcher with Barajas not being signed, but even after Barajas was signed I thought Coste should be the 3rd string catcher, backup at the corner infield positions, and primary pinch-hitter. He only hit .328 last season though...what a slouch!

[Bedrosian's Beard]

sinker baller Brian Lawrence is out there-any interest?

[J. Weitzel]

Besides Lawrence, another player of interest could be KC outfielder Emil Brown, who isn't playing and could be dirt cheap. He isn't hitting.

[clout]

I want to address a mixture of idiocy and wisdom in Parker's post from the last thread.

First, the wisdom. Parker, you're absolutely right, it is early in a 162 game season and it's silly to give up on the team. It is also true, however, that you can begin to discern trends 6 weeks into the season. Some of these trends are not positive for the Phillies.

Now, the idiocy: "This is the kind of bogus statement that really gets me fired up:
From Nats Series: "Looked like two evenly matched teams playing."
From Braves: "Phils look like they are a division below Muts and Braves."
ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? Ok, so based on this logic, the Nationals are clearly on a par with the Braves, and Muts, because, the Phils have played the Muts and Braves in close, down to the 9th inning games. So the Nats are contenders in the East, right? And I guess based on the Marlins v. Muts series, the Marlins are clearly the favorite to win the division."

Parker, please read more carefully. The statement "Looked like two evenly matched teams playing" does not mean "the Nats and Phils are equally talented." It means exactly what it says and it was true. The same with the other statement. The key words are "look like." When a team plays poorly they "look like" a less talented team.
I recall you predicted 90-95 wins for the Phils and I share your frustration, but Jason is absolutely right. The NL is tougher this year, the Braves are far better than last year and the Marlins are coming on with the best prospects in the division. Fasten your seatbelt.

[joe l]

If / when Gordon comes back, does Charlie make him the setup man and leave Myers as closer? Or if Alfonseca / Myers duo is clicking does Gordon go on the scrap heap?

[GM-Carson]

I'm the idiot that predicted 92 wins. I thought through some mysterious power that the Phils would win it all this season because I'm having a son (first child) at the end of August. I'm coming to find out there's actually no correlation...go figure.

[J. Weitzel]

Good conversation today. Lots to talk about, including this idea of rebuilding.

If the Phillies were to trade with New York, they must absolutely, positively find a way to wrangle that outfield prospect out of Cashman's sweaty hands. The Yankees can address their outfield through free agency. The Phillies are going to be in very big trouble with their outfield starting next season.

[laramie]

Gordon obviously doesn't go on the scrap heap since he's owed $7 million this season, $5.5 million next year, and then another $1 million to buyout his option for 2009. Of course the Phils could try to recoup some of that money by contract insurance. What amazes me is that Gordon was able to pass a physical before signing the contract with the Phils. Could he possibly have looked OK back then? He said he was pitching with discomfort at the beginning of last season and then silently overworked himself into a spot on the DL.

I worry that this is the start of a series of injuries for Phils pitchers. The rotation is shaky even if it's healthy, but there are a lot of reasons to be concerned: Garcia and Lieber have already spent time on the DL, Moyer is aging but somehow manages to keep himself out of trouble, Hamels obviously has battled the injury bug for years. And Eaton... well he hasn't showed us much of anything even though he's healthy.

Myers' move to the pen has worked out pretty well so far, but I'm sticking by my earlier statement that the Phils are playing with fire. Myers doesn't have the mental makeup to be a closer. Let's see what happens to him after two rough outings in a row, which is bound to happen at some point. How does he respond, by dialing up the velocity or by pitching smarter? This is definitely not the N.L. Least anymore -- you can't just blow fastballs by the heart of the opposition's lineups.

And though there are a lot of busts this year for the Phils, the biggest bust in my book has to be the much-ballyhooed new coaching staff. A terrible job on almost every aspect of fundamental baseball.

[curt]

laramie,

The only thing that would give me any sliver of hope for the remainder of this season is a quick firing of the entire coaching staff.

There is some talent on the field -- heck, probably more talent than the Cards won a World Series with -- but still NO evidence a 1-9 is being moulded that can play winning ball.

Some commentator said early on that its like Spring training never happened, but its more like Spring training has never stopped. Forget about trying to figure out the in game decisions, I challenge you to try to guess what starting lineup they will come up with today.

[Pats Gillick]

What are you guys getting so upset about?

I said 2008!

[Will]

clout said "It is also true, however, that you can begin to discern trends 6 weeks into the season."

Then you shouldn't be discerning trends yet, as it's only 5 weeks into the season. Just kidding with ya buddy.

[Will]

don't know if I'll get on here anytime this weekend, so I'll post my thoughts on the 4 game series with SF:

My expectation is to win 2-3 games. We have no shot tonight with Caine rolling and Eaton sputtering (may be a good thing, better matchups the rest of the weekend). Not to mention the flight and time differential.

But the rest of the weekend looks favorable. Cole has a must-win on Sunday, and I think we can at least split the other 2, maybe win both.

[mm]

You know what was kind of fun...before the season started and everyone realized how unprepared this team really was and the national media actually talked about the phillies for about 5 minutes...yup, that was kind of cool.

[joe l]

I'm tired of Jimmy Rollins swinging at the first strike.

I'm tired of the coaches telling Howard to pull the ball.

I'm tired of Burrell.

I'm tired of whoever it is we have at third base, again.

I'm tired of one guy carrying the team with his hot bat.

I'm tired of popping up on the first pitch, when Bourne enters the game as a pinch runner.

I'm tired of the Eaton going 4 innings giving up 5+ runs.

I'm tired of Flash getting hurt every year.

I'm tired of waiting for the home run.

[MG]

I woke up to read to "Gordon back to Philly to be reexamined." Definitely not good news but frankly not surprising. Gordon hasn't been right since before he went on the DL last summer.

Hate to bring up Eskin but he has been dead right about his tirades on signing Gordon over Wagner. If the Phils had given Wagner that extra guaranteed year, he would have signed here. For all his crap about the Philly fans, Wagner ultimately would have followed the money.

I think it is now safe to say that Gillick's 2006 offseason should be given an "F". Not one acquisition from his first offseason has panned out. Ugh. I hate being a Philly sports fan.

[Ruben Sandwich]

"It's just a tuneup, to check him out. Nothing major." - Ruben Amaro Jr, March 2007

[Billy Mac]

What about Dr. Michael Ciccotti ? Isn't he accountable also ?

[dajafi]

It's a badly run organization, from top to bottom. The cluelessness begins in the owner's box (I guess that should be plural), intensifies in Gillick's office, and suffuses the clubhouse. They're talented and they play hard, but they play dumb, and this has been the case for years.

I really don't believe it will get better until the team is sold, and Bill Giles--that walking sphincter who turned the best-run franchise in sports into the worst inside a decade--has said he won't sell while he's alive. Take from that what you will.

[MG]

As for the Braves, I just don't see the dominant team. Yeah their bullpen is definitely stronger than last year but I don't see a 95-win team there. Braves have a couple of holes including:

1. Huge dropoff in starting pitching after Smoltz/Hudson. James is an okay starter but he shouldn't be a "3" on a good team.

2. Health of Wickman and Larry Jones. I can't remember a reliever that was in worse shape except for "El Guapo" on the Red Sox. Plus, Larry always seems to be bruised and battered as the season wears on. I doubt he is healthy for the entire 2007 season.

3. Holes in their lineup. Braves have nobody in LF and I bet that Johnson and Francoeur come back to earth a bit after great starts.

If I could point to any one stat, look at the run differential for the Braves. Yeah, there offense has been scoring a ton of runs but their pitching staff is also giving up alot of runs. At some point, this will catch up with the Braves if it continues.

[D. Patrone]

"We're in trouble this season. We continue to play stupid baseball. Sure we'll go on mini-streaks and look like everything clicks, but overall this season is a bust all-around."

This comment is dead-on accurrate. I got to watch the game last night on ESPN and they do play stupid baseball. That's 'cause they have a stupid manager. In 2 of the first 3 innings, 2 on no outs and 0 runs. Manuel doesn't sac bunt, no hit and run, nothing. Then later I believe Werth is running with Garcia at the plate. He gets thown out and now Gracia leads off the next inning. He gets on and then HE makes a bone-head baserunning mistake. I for one am sick of this crap. I get murdered on this site for voicing my opinions cause they happen to be correct. Someone wrote earlier "I'm the idiot who predicted 92 wins.....". To whomever wrote that listen, you are not an idiot. With the core talent group that is there, in that ballpark, 90+ wins is a reasonable expectation. But the bleeping GM didn't do him job and the bleeping manager is as dumb as a rock.

Don't expect Lieber to go anywhere now with Gordon out. Myers will be the closer so we now have 5 starters. But now at least we know why Lieber wasn't traded 'cause they knew Gordon was hurt. I've said it before and I'll say it again, they've got a lot of talent but if things don't ghange they're no better than a .500 team. Look for them to lose 3 of 4 from the Giants and then we can all kiss the season goodbye. Garcia is a waste. No more than a 5 inning pitcher. We see now why Chicago traded him. Eaton, another waste. It's a bleeping shame. I've had enough of seeing and hearing the same crap over and over. Gillick and Manuel have got to go.

[Billy Mac]

I cannot see the Phils bringing back Smith until he demonstrates he can consistently throw strikes at AAA. With Eaton and Garcia unable to get out of the 6th inning, we'll need another reliever. Condrey is my guess with Brito still on the shelf. He's pitching better than Sanches or Bisenius right now. Mazone would be a dark horse if the Phils were set on a lefty, but he's been used strictly as a starter.

[Alby]

Couldn't post last night, but I noticed from the 1st inning that Garcia's arm action is terrible; he looks like he's throwing entirely from the waist up, his body is way out in front, his "fast" ball was consistently high. Ugh. Can somebody explain why Rich "Roll Another" Dubee didn't go in the Great Coaching Purge of the offseason? Can anyone explain what he brings to the table that a real major league pitching coach wouldn't? Isn't local product Orel Hershiser available?

Dajafi: If we have to pry the Phillies from Bill Giles' cold, dead hands, that gives me reason to hope he drinks himself to death all the sooner. He was the laughingstock of the front office during the Carpenter years, and he took his revenge on all of us.

[curt]

to toss in just a few more...

I'm tired of Ruiz swinging at the first pitch.

I'm tired of Vic swinging at every pitch.

I'm tired of Burrell not swinging at any pitch.

I'm tired of our most effective relievers pitching mop up.

I'm tired of carrying a young reliever who never gets to pitch, and a pinch hitter who can't hit.

I'm tired of truely awful baserunning.

I'm tired of watching Lieber try to field a baseball.

I'm tired of watching Lieber try to hit (or bunt) a baseball.

I'm tired (already) of watching Garcia labor out there.

I'm really tired of Cholly.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I'm tired of the Phillies as we know them.

[Karl in Norway]

Alby, you're dead-on about Dubee. For that matter, why is Milt Thompson still the hitting coach?? I've been lurking here for many months and have seen little criticism of him, despite all the truly terrible situational hitting.

Can't resist a little Milt anecdote: I remember attending a game with my Dad at the Vet, in like 1988 or something, and we were punching ballots for the All Star game. I look over, and my Dad is voting for Milt! Even as a 12 year old I knew that he was no All Star and gave my Dad some grief. His reply: "I know he stinks, but I like him." Maybe Phillies management feels the same way...

[ZT]

30 more games till that magic number 10,000

[jaxmike]

To GM-Carson - I thought exactly the same thing when my first son was due in the fall of 1987. Visions of a world series baby, etc. Saved all the Daily News and Inquirer clippings up through about midseason when reality finally set in. I wish you better luck, although my son turned out fine in spite of it (and somehow didn't inherit the baseball gene).

[Dave Kingman]

Don't expect any improvement next year. They still owe about half of Thome's salary next season plus they will owe Gordon who may be done. They still will have Burrell's salary too. Expect them to blow smoke again in the off season by pursuing a high profile free agent and then have another team out bid them. Then they will sign a couple of bums like Eaton, Franklin, Nunez, Barajas and Helms. How long will the fans continue to pay for this sham by owners who don't care about the fans at all.

[Nat]

I agree with what D. Patrone says except for the part that they play stupid because they have a stupid manager. They have been playing stupid since before Manuel. It is just a stupid organization. They draft stupid, they trade stupid, they sign free agents stupid and they hire management stupid. Manuel just happened to fit the organization's stupid template. He was hired for a stupid reason -- players like him. Same with Bowa before that -- fans like him. Fire Manuel, fire Gillick, then make stupid choices to replace them. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

To paraphrase John Wayne: "Baseball is hard. If you're stupid, it's even harder."

[yt]

Any seats available on the Pat Burrell Band Wagon today?

I don't understand why they think a closer who is pushing 40 and depends on hard throwing is going to get better by pitching every other day, or every third day.

If he was hurt in March or April, he should have been shut down then. This team makes some of the most sensless decisions.

I may have to ammend my pre-season win prediction from 91 down to 90.

[Will]

You guys are really depressing, as are the phillies in general. Here are a couple of very thin silver linings: The phillies finished 11-14 in April, half-game better than last year. The phillies series loss was their first in 3 weeks. The phils are 1-1 in May.

All is not lost in the season, until they're actually lost. It sure looks like it's coming, and bad news comes everyday, but stranger things have happened.

[Tony]

Yeah Will, one thing I've learned in my year at Beerleaguer is that the ups are sort of up, but the downs are WAAAAY down. If you know what I mean. I'm guilty of that as much as anyone.

[Lake Fred]

I was the pessimist amongst the Beerleaguers and I stupidly predicted 84 wins. That may have to be adjusted downward by ten to 74 wins.

To answer Alby's question about Dubee: "Can somebody explain why Rich "Roll Another" Dubee didn't go in the Great Coaching Purge of the offseason?" The answer is goat pictures.

I was all excited last night about being able to see the Phillies play and I did get to see Garcia's stupid baserunning and Vic's great throw. Geary pitched good, but he did not put out the fire. He gave up the hit that drove in the winning run.

I agree with clout. I read Parker's post about the Phils = the gNats. They way I took it is that they are both second division teams.

I had to laugh when Cholly brought out the double switch pad to to umps and the stupid (except for Orel) ESPN announcers blabber about the great managerial brain of the Phillies.

About Gordon: We knew he wasn't right and management kept it a secret. This isn't the CIA, its a game of skill. If a guy is hurt, then he's hurt and you sit him down. Let's get Dr. Frankenstein and hook those electrodes to Gordo's shoulder. Z-z-z-zap! Arm all fixed, throw pitches at 120mph with a contrail. I wish!

[yt]

Hey,

Two of my very favorite blogs are coming together today.

Philadelphia Will Do has an entire post dedicated to Beer Leaguer's own JZ.

Apparently some bloggers just can't see the obvious correlation between rape on college campuses, and not shutting down your closer at the first sign of trouble.

Go figure.

[Bridoc10]

The silver lining through this Gordon stuff is that it hastens the Brett Myers-to-closer role that I have been hoping to see.

I just think it's a tad depressing that they had to shut Gordon down two games after his first 1-2-3 inning all season.

[AWH]

dajafi, I love your comment about Giles.

This organization's current problems started when his ownership group too over. And to agree with Nat, it's been run "stupidly" since then. Monty is a front man, and to anyone who thinks Giles isn't pulling his strings behind the scenes I would suggest they get a dementia presciption.

I would like to propose that in the future we refer to management with the following monickers:

Bill "The Walking Sphincter" Giles
Dave "The Puppet" Montgomery
Pat "Seattle Stew" Gillick
Ruben "Liar, Liar" Amaro

Ugh.

[AWH]

Prediction:

Gillick will get out of town right before the wheels fall off completely. He has a history of doing this in Seattle, Baltimore and Toronto.

[Bridoc10]

Quick aside:

I live in NYC. The Yankees are falling apart. Their injuries are mounting. They have problems galore.

Funny thing is, their fans aren't losing their minds like many on this board seem to be.

(Maybe this isn't a representative sample?)

[JZ]

Oops. Just to, um, clarify:

I was not comparing rape to pitching. I was comparing folks in high places showing an absolute disregard for their various publics.

The Phillies have a long and ridiculous history of not being held accountable. Why should they? They own the team and aren't beholden to anyone -- just like the ol' alma mater.

The analogy was a stretch. Thanks to y'all for not killing me for it.

[Lake Fred]

JZ, I understood your analogy perfectly, when I first read it. No problems here.

[Tray]

I don't see what there is to be so desperate about, honestly.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

"Desperate" may be a bit much, but "concerned", definitely. A lot to be concerned about.

[MG]

Bridco10 - Are you kidding? People in New York are going nuts about the Yanks and bitching/moaning. Hell, Steinbrenner had to publicly comment and say that Torre wasn't going to be fired.

[TJ]

JZ, what school did you go to, out of curiosity?

[Dave Kingman]

Bridoc10, 1)the Phillies have 1 World Series Championship in their history how many do the Yankees have. 2) the Yankees have the money and an owner who cares about winning.
Will, it's not pessimism it's realism. How many more years will this same S#%$ go on? Every year the fans say it's too early to panic but look at the results.

[Bridoc10]

Again, maybe it's not a representative sample. My rabid Yankee-fan friends aren't pushing the panic button. At least not yet.

Neither do I think should the Phillies' fans.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Yankees are attempting to bring in Roger Clemens. The Phils will bring up Matt Smith.

[McD]

While I do not like the Yankees, I do admire Steinbrenner. It must be nice to have an owner who is passionate about winning, and will do whatever it takes to get to the World Series.

As long as David Montgomery and his mysterious junta of owners are running the Phillies, this team will never win the World Series.

[AWH]

Bridoc, no one here is panicking, or reaching for the button.

But, I would suggest to you that criticism of this inept, uncommitted to winning (despite their protestations to the contrary), dishonest ownership and management group is fitting, especially when their record since they bought the team is analyzed.

We all thought Seattle Stew Gillick would be an improvement over Ed Wade, but based on what he's done since he was hired I'm not sure you can say that. Trade for Freddy Garcia and not ask for a physical???? Stupid.

So, I think we're frustrated, but not giving up on the season. But if this team needs a couple of pieces to get it over the hump and into the playoffs, I'm not sure Gillick can get it done. He didn't last year? He didn't get anything for Abreu, Lidle, Cormier, Bell, Padilla, etc. Not even decent prospects. Ok, maybe Matt Smith will make it back to the show but that's it. And because he didn't get anything for those players we have little left to trade to get anybody good.

I surely hope they can turn it around, but don't compare this franchise to the Yankees. Remember, they were the one's that hosed Gillick on the Abreu trade.

That is the worst thought out comparison I have seen posted on this site.

[HR]

Three words.

Pitching....pitching....pitching
starting....middle......closing

Without it, teams with good hitting (Phillies) end up .500 or lower.

No answers here. Every team in NLB
is looking.

May be a lonngggggggg season.

[Bridoc10]

"Worst thought out comparison...on this site"?

I think that's a little harsh.

If you'll note, I said, "Quick aside..."

I went no further into detail than to compare two teams who have failed - THUS FAR - to meet preseason expectations. At no time did I intend to compare ownership, commitment to winning, etc.

I meant it as an observation on fan reaction...and even admitted my "science" may be flawed.

Sorry if I touched a nerve or two. At the end of the day, it's just a game. It's supposed to be enjoyable, isn't it?

[HR]

But then...

What the heck....

It's spring

It's a cold beer

And a dollar dog

Let the season be as long...... as it needs

[Parker]

Clout, it was not necessarily your comment about the Phillies playing equal to the Nationals. I understood the comment, particularly in the moment, to mean that they were playing equal to the Nats at that point. My problem was that some people got in a white bronco with their Heisman trophy (To continue strange analogies) and ran with it. There were several comments, not necessarily your own, that clearly indicated a belief that this team was no more than an equal to the Nats. This combined with the reference to the Braves and Muts being in a seperate division was too much for one beleaguered Phils fan to take. Whether or not you agree with my interpretation of the comments made, you have to realize that if the comments were intended to have such meaning, they were ridiculous. It's just a matter of interpretation.

State of the NL address: From my view the Brewers are for real, real. I like their closer (Cordero: the good one), their backup closer/setup man (Turnbow), their rotation (Although the loss of Chris "Salmon Of" Capuano could be big). Additionally their lineup is good (Mench: on fire, Fielder: same, Hardy: out of control, Jenkins: on fire, Bill Hall: sparkplug w/40 HR potential, great bench). Really hard to question Suppan, especially if they get in the playoffs. He is the Robert Horry of baseball.

A few Predictions:
NL West: Strongest Division in NL (Like the D-backs in that division)
NL Central: (Weakest division: barely over East) Brewers to Win (Particularly if they can avoid Randall Simon/David Bell), Cards finish second playing inspired ball in wake of Hancock tragedy.
NL East: Barely edging the Central for weakest in the league. Contrary to popular sentiment, I believe the Braves, Mets, and Phils are down this year. Marlins are better, and the Nats may not be that 120 loss team that everyone thought (They have a chance to win any game that Hill or Bergman pitches). If the Astros were playing better or the Cubs, I would go with the East as the weakest division. I still like the Phils in this one. THey have the best combination of Youth and experience in the rotation of any team in the East. (Mets: some extreme youth, and AARP members), (Braves: same, and just some crap), (Marlins: too young, no experience), (Nats: need I say more). I think the Phils rotation gets stronger down the road and the Muts, Braves, and Marlins begin to faulter by Mid to late May-early june.

[JZ]

TJ: At this point, best to leave it at small college in the middle of nowhere, PA, which narrows it down to 27 possible schools.

[Jon]

HR says "May be a lonngggggggg season."

Sh*t, it already is one...

Stupidity begats stupidity...

Too bad we can't legitimately hold the owners accountable...

[Tray]

Come on Parker, that's way too optimistic. We have a shot at the wild card but at least one of the two contenders in our division will finish with a better record than us. They just have fewer holes. Count on it. As for the Brewers, they were my pick going into the season but a lot of those guys are hitting way over their abilities. Geoff Jenkins hasn't been particularly good in a few years.

[Parker]

JZ: I guess I don't get it. Someone read your comments, and started posting about them on another site?? Who does that? Combing the internet for potentially inflamatory comments? Is this what happened? If that is the case, myself and GM-Carson may be on somebody's death list.

• I dont think I really thought too much of the comment. If taken in context it was not inflamatory. If you can seperate the idea of rape from baseball management, which shouldnt be that difficult. You didn't even say it in a way that was insensitive to the issue. Maybe there could have been a better analogy, but is it that serious. If anything, bringing out the hypocrisy of an organization (Particularly higher education) is a good thing, IMO. Am I totally misinterpreting this, or no? Does anyone have a link to the site?

[GM-Carson]

There's a reason so many of us BeerLeaguers are pessimistic...the Phillies continue to lose. Losing at the beginning of the season haunts you at the end of the season. I love the eternal optimists who say "the season isn't over until it's over" and other malarky like that. I believe in history and history shows that teams starting off in the position the Phils are (3 games under .500 and 5 back on the East leading Braves) don't make it to the playoffs like 99% of the time. Maybe we'll get lucky and be the exception to the rule, but don't count on it. That's why we're depressing. That's why we bitch. Our favorite team that we're obsessed with plays dumb baseball and doesn't do enough to change the errors of their ways.

[Jon]

There is never any accountability or a sense of urgency from anyone in the Phillies organization, ever!

They stress certain things (like the fast start) yet no one even bats an eye when they get off to their worst start in 25 years.

We continue to see bonehead mistake after bonehead mistake, yet no one ever takes any blame.

The frickin' manager cannot execute a double switch without having to write it down first. Even then, chances are he has screwed it up in some way. He never tires a hit and run. He never tries for a sacrifice. He cannot manage a bench or a bullpen, all along while being too damn loyal to his veterans, even if they suck. At least I could relate to Bowa when he would get pissed when things weren't executed correctly! I relate nothing to Manuel. Nothing!

And to cap things off, Mr. Ruben Amaro Jr. and his "routine medical exam" quote about Tom Gordon. I really hate Ruben Amaro. What has he ever done for this franchise?? He pissed off our ROY/MVP while continuing to lie to the fanbase over and over again. It will be even worse here if he is ever the actual GM. I hope it never happens! Of course, since these are the Phillies, it mostly likely will happen...

[JZ]

Parker,

Your recap is accurate. I'm not sure of the point of the post in the other joint -- but I did kind of freak because even though these things are (mostly) anonymous, rape is a serious thing and I wasn't making light of it in the least.

But I am frustrating, as you rightfully said, that this organization perpetually buries its head in the sand with little regard for true, diehard, frustrated fans.

My frustration with this team, like most here, which is why I effing love beerleaguer, is that it's the same. Old. Thing. Every. Year.

The public handling of Gordon is a perfect summary of all things wrong with this franchise.

[AWH]

Jon, the only way to hold the owners accountable is to not watch TV (lower rating = lower ad revenue), no visits to the Bank (no ticket revenue, etc.) and no radio (no ad rev). And no merchandise.

As long as they are making their money, and according to Forbes Magazine their opreating profit is about $14 million, it seems they really don't care if they win. They may say they do, but if that's true then the only way to evaluate their lack of success (1 playoff appearance in 24 yrs, while two expansion franshises[Fish & Snakes]win 3 World Series between them) is to chalk it up to pure, unadulterated incompetence.

Now, try to get them to admit to that.

[AWH]

Oh, I forgot to mention they've been in until recently the fourth or fifth largest market.

[AWH]

But, the Walking Sphincter thinks we're a small market.

I would suggest to you that the problem is him. He thinks "small".

[MG]

As for this Giants series, I am really interested to see how the Phils will fair against the best pitching staff they have faced so far this year (plus I get to see the Phils in person for the first time this year on Sat.)

I am cautiously optimistic that the Phils will split this series and maybe even take 3 of 4. One reason: the Giants' offense. Besides Bonds, the Giants' offense is pathetic. If Cholly pitches to Bonds this weekend, I am going to be pissed. Let the scrubs like Aurilia and Feliz beat the Phils if they can.

[lekh tiztayen]

I just briefly read a column by philly-hater Dayn Perry about zone rating that had a link to stats and it seems like JRoll has one of the lowest zone ratings of any ss in the game. Is this accurate?