Beerleaguer for breakfast: Phillies-Mets series wrap

In a tight game officially decided on a bang-bang play at the plate, the Phillies sealed their fate by going 0-for-12 with runners in scoring position, falling to the Mets 4-3 in extra innings.

A well-pitched night for both sides, the game carried a familiar, April theme for the Phillies: Too many ducks left on the pond (13 total), poor execution of fundamental plays, in this case, dropping down a bunt. The team wasted a solid effort from Adam Eaton, who next to Cole Hamels, has been their best starter through two turns. John Maine was even better on the opposite side, and of the series, this was probably the best pure ballgame. Despite the incorrect ruling at home, the Mets did enough to earn the win and take the Eric Bruntlett Series.

The Phillies (4-6) head home with a 3-4 record during their seven-game road swing, having not won a series yet. They open a weekend set with the Cubs tonight, carrying with them few positives from the first 10 games of the season. While 4-6 isn’t desperation, they haven’t been sharp in April, which is the annual ritual.

Comments

[Rico Brogna]

I'm not so sure it was the wrong call.

When I see one angle, I see Coste tag him on the lower back. Not before.

The other angle shows Jose's hand on the plate while it's hard to tell whether he had been tagged or not.

Basically it's impossible to tell since there was no great angle.

[joe l]

It's a tough call and close enough that the home team generally gets the benefit of doubt. Props to Werth and more to Coste for making that play much closer than it originally appeared it would be. If Reyes didn't have to come in awkwardly, he beats the throw by a definitive margin.

[J. Weitzel]

Every Phillies team needs a boogyman. It only took 10 games to find one. Eric Bruntlett is this year's Rod Barajas, which is great, because he'll have almost no bearing on the team this season.

[Morty]

Didn't see any replays as I turned off the TV after the "safe" call. Can anyone describe what the replays showed?

I think, like Jason, that the Phils had their chances and didn't take advantage. We had used up all our decent pitchers and, given the home field advantage, the Mets were bound to win once we got past the 11th. Gordon is not a two inning pitcher, although he was looking very good. Tough loss, but nothing to cry in your beer about.

[Rico Brogna]

joe:

Totally agree. It was a great throw from Werth, and an incredible block of the plate by Coste. If that's anyone else besides Reyes, no run scores.

Even as a Mets fan I have to say that it sucks to see the series end like that.

[sneed]

Regardless of the outcome of the game last night we won this series. We won this series because the Mets turned those two April games into must-wins and looked exhausted in the process. Their celebration after the game? Weak would be an understatement. If we had won a game like that at home the bank would have been jumping. The truth is the Mets are not nearly as good as they were just two seasons ago and the Phils have continued to improve. Our offense is better, our defense is better, and our bullpen is better. And I'm willing to say that Hamels will pitch as well, if not better than Johan this season.

As my good friend Jack, not known for his optimism or patience when it comes to the Phils said last night, "I'm strangely calm/confident for a 4-6 team. This team is OK." I would have to concur. A good sign in April is when your utility and bench players are contributing. Jenkins, Werth, Feliz, Coste, and Dobbs have all played a part in creating runs during late innings to tie and win games. We've also received quality pitching from Eaton and Moyer when most of the people on this board thought they were done before we left Clearwater.
The best is yet to come for this Phils team.

[Morty]

Seriously, could Brunlett have had a worse two games? Talk about goinf from a A+++ player to an F----. Can't get the bunt down?

You just know if Brunlett gets that bunt down, Utley brings in a run.

[Rico Brogna]

Morty:

Replays showed Coste getting the tag on his lower back, while Reyes got his left hand on the plate. You can't see both from one angle, so it's near impossible to tell which happened first.

[Morty]

Sneed:

Agree 100% with your assessment.

[Rico Brogna]

sneed:

Must-wins? Looked exhausted? I'm not sure what games you were watching.

And I'll wager eleventy billion dollars that Hamels doesn't outpitch Johan this season. There's no way.

[Morty]

Rico:

Thanks. That play was much closer than it should have been thanks to a perfect throw from Werth. Harry and Wheels had given up on it once the ball got through the infield.

[Rico Brogna]

Oh that reminds me...

I read here yesterday something about Wheels saying stuff he shouldn't have said, and that's why he's on the radio now? Something like that?

What was that about? I live in South Jersey so I watch these games on CSN and I'm used to him being there with Harry. What happened?

[longsufferin]

Attention G-Mart shoppers...

I see that Steve "We have no interest in him" Kline signed a minor league deal with us.

Pat probably had a coupon...

[Ankit]

Reyes was out: http://www.bugsandcranks.com/philadelphia-phillies/reyes-was-tagged-out/

But the fault for this loss lies with Brutalett for failing to get the bunt down. Time to bring up Ray Olmedo...

[Morty]

Out pitch? That's hard to see. But Hamels matching Santana, or being behind by so little that the difference is negligible? If Hamels stays healthy that is easy to see.

[Rico Brogna]

Ankit:

Sorry, but those pictures show nothing. The tag had yet to be applied in the first picture, and Reyes looks to be touching the plate in the rest.

[joe l]

I got a kick out of the Mets broadcasters in the top of that inning explaining about Bruntlett needed to get that bunt down since the team was playing in Philly this weekend.

[J. Weitzel]

Olmedo is gone; he did not accept his minor league assignment to LV. Chris Woodward is the next in line.

[sneed]

Rico,

You guys surrendered two 7-8th inning leads this series. We played two nights without our leadoff hitter and MVP. You went to 12 innings against our worst starter- perhaps the worst starter in the NL. When Pagan came to the dugout there were like 3 guys there waiting for a weak hug. If that exact scenario would have occurred in Philly, Pat would have carried the player over his head off of the field.

Also, our middle relief made Beltran and Delgado look like Glanville and Rico Brogna. When are you guys going to realize the only hitter in your lineup that scares anyone is David Wright. Everyone else is past their prime, with the exception of Reyes who is completely overrated. He's fast, so what.

Finally, only a secret in the closet Phillies fan would post with the name Rico Brogna on a Phils message board.

[ABP]

All though I don't agree with all of Sneed's optimism about the Phils, I do agree with his assessment that the Mets aren't that good this year. I was able to watch all 3 games on SNY because I live in NYC, and I really wasn't impressed with the Mets. We won with J-Roll in the lineup, lost big when our starter walked the entire lineup in a few innings and played them tight in a game where our 5th starter (who is pitching like our 2/3 starter) and bullpen looked very sharp. We went 0-12 with RISP and managed to drag it out to the 12th. One hit with RISP and the Phils win the game and with the Phils offense, more times than now over the course of the season, I think they get that one hit.

[Rico Brogna]

Morty:

I suppose it depends on what our difference of negligible is.

I didn't mean for it to sound like Johan would blow Hamels away. No way that happens.

I just don't see Hamels beating him in Wins, ERA, or WHIP.

[Rico Brogna]

"When Pagan came to the dugout there were like 3 guys there waiting for a weak hug. If that exact scenario would have occurred in Philly, Pat would have carried the player over his head off of the field."

Actually, he did get mugged on the field. There was nobody to greet him at the dugout because they were all on the field already.

Nice try though.

And I can assure you that I am not a Phillies fan.

[Philles Fan]

Sneed if you think are bullpen is better than the Mets you are crazy. If the Mets get Duaner back anywhere close to his 2006 year then their bullpen by far is better than ours. And why in the hell do we have only 1 LH relief pitcher in our pen, when we play in the NL East.

Staring pitching is going to be close but I give the edge to the Mets just because of Santana but if Maine or Ollie faulters or gets injured we have the edge. I really don't know if you can call Moyer's first start a quality one. But Eaton does look good.

Hitting we def got the advantage in that.

[Ankit]

Rico, check the pics again... the second pic clearly shows the tag being applied and Reyes right hand is in the air. He touched the plate with his left hand which is clearly not near the plate in the 2nd pic.

[jobbers]

Obviously the season is less than 2 weeks old but check out those batting averages.

Burrell, Werth, Utley, Coste, Rollins & Jenkins all hitting over .280.

Everyone else below the Mendoza line

[Rico Brogna]

Ankit:

Please don't insult my intelligence or my vision. The tag is not CLEARLY applied in the second pic.

[jobbers]

Rico

On the webpage it states (so of course it MUST be true) "the tag had already been applied by the first picture. Reyes misses the plate completely with his right hand, and finally stutters in with his left hand a full second after Coste tagged him out."

[sneed]

ABP,

I know I may be overly optimistic based on the somewhat irrational conclusions I've drawn from a 3 game series in early April; however, I just get pissed off that the Mets acquire Santana and all the sudden the baseball nerds at ESPN, who dictate what fans think, have annointed them NL champs. "If you want to crown them, then crown their asses, but they are who we thought they were! And we let them off the hook (thanks to Eric Bruntlett)."

Look, no doubt that David Wright is the best at his position in the NL and Santana is the best SP. Those factors alone makes the Mets a competitive team, not to mention the other $130 mil they've spent around them. I just see this whole situation a bit differently now. Aside from an aging roster, an atrocious middle relief, and a dummy manager, I just don't think the players they touted so highly are all that good. Pedro is hurt, Perez is wild, no 5th starter...Ryan Church? Brian Schneider? Did they scare us before? Why now?

My point is WE should be the favorites. We have back to back MVP's and a Cy-Young quality SP. And none of those three players is our best. So while it's early and we have several obvious shortcomings, there are more long term positives with this group than ever before. Everyone is our division was overrated except us. And that's the way we like it.

[Rico Brogna]

Atrocious middle relief?

Pot, meet kettle.

The Phills might have more "long-term positives" (not sure how that's true when Rollins/Utley/Howard are all older than Wright and Reyes), but those are irrelevant when discussing who is the best right now. Not in 5 years, not in 10 years... right now.

Phillies Fan,

Are you crazy, which bullpen was better over the past three days? If I'm so crazy why did the Mets give up two late inning leads?

They can have Duaner back. Neither Wagner nor Heilman is NEARLY as good as they were in 2006. Sosa and Schoenweis stink.

Also, I was saying that our bullpen is better than it was a year ago.

We have a decided edge on offense, both with starters and the bats we bring off the bench. With Pedro out, and likely done, their edge in SP is not as great as it was.

So far Seanez and Durbin has been fine. Flash has looked good since opening day. Lidge has as well. Madson is about as good as Heilman. And the x-factor is Romero who for a short period of time is the best setup guy between the two teams. Wagner is throwing mid-low 90's these days and the action on his slider isn't quite there anymore. He's a good, but not dominant closer. If there is an edge it's so small you won't even notice it.

One of the reasons we beat them up last year was their bullpen. The one game lead could be attributed to Chase's game winning hit of Wags August 30th.

Maybe Feliciano scares you, but not me.

[sneed]

That last post was me.

Rico- I meant long term as over the course of 162 games. When our bats come alive mid-summer you will not want to play us. That is all.

[Morty]

sneed:

Unless, Reyes turns into the Reyes of 2 years ago, Alou manages to stay on the field for the better part of the season (where is he?) Delgado manages to reverse his decline, Castillo manages to stay on the field, Pedro is able to come back, stay healthy and be effective, and/or they are able to trade for an above average starter, the Mets are not the scary beast I heard about before the season began.

[Rico Brogna]

Ok sneed. Thanks for your comments. You have done you best to prove to me that you are a total homer.

Madson = Heilman? Really? Check your stats. Heilman has been one of the best setup men in baseball over the past few years. He sucks against the Phillies, I'll certainly give you that, but thankfully we play 144 other games in a season.

[Ankit]

The glove is on Reyes' lower left side of back, thats a tag, the ump missed the call. But oh well, lets see what happens next week in Philly...

What's the reason for the nick of "Rico Brogna" of all the people?

[Rico Brogna]

Morty:

Alou went down with a hernia with a few weeks left in ST. They expect him back mid-May.

Shame he'll take Pagan's starting spot. He's been playing great.

[Morty]

Hernia? That sounds encouraging for a 40+ year old man playing professional sports.

Don't discount that the Mets/ Phils games will contribute very much towards the division crown, and you'll need Heilman to pitch well in them. Right now he is like catnip to out batters.

[Jack]

Rico- Sure, maybe Heilman has been better than Madson over his career, but I love seeing him come in against the Phils.

Also, after this series you can't tell me the Phils bullpen didn't outpitch the Mets'. They did.

[sneed]

Rico,

No sh*t I'm a homer. It's 1040 am on a weekday and I'm writing ferociously on a Phillies message board. All you've done is prove to me you're on my level for monitoring it.

OK I'll concede Heilman is better than Madson. I just group them together as former minor league starters turned relievers. But in 2006, Sanchez was the true set-up guy and Heilman was the 7th inning guy more or less. Now it may be important that you have 144 other games, but when you lose the division by 1 game you may need Heilman to do more than blow leads against us. He wants no part of our lefty murderer's row.

[Morty]

to "our" batters

[Lunkwill Fook]

Mets fan visiting. I thought the play at home was as close as could possibly be. But to say Coste DEFINITELY got him out is ridiculous. I saw that replay a dozen times and Coste does NOT tag Jose in the back until around the time Jose got his left hand on or near the plate. It was THAT close and, let's face it, tie goes to the runner.

Great series, lots of respect to the Phils. But give the Mets some props for winning two, k?

[Rico Brogna]

Blah I'm tired of all this.

I'm just going to say that right now, out of the offense, defense, rotation, and bullpen of each team.... none has a significant advantage over the other.

That's it really.

[sifl]

I just want to admire once again the performance by Adam Eaton. Did he string together two starts this strong all last season? Maybe he really does have it back. Grandpaps is fine, Myers will get it going, and hopefully Benson will be able to fill in for KK if he doesn't get his magic back.

As far as the offense, I'm not concerned about Howard. I think he looks comfortable up there, he's been hitting the ball hard, and the hits are going to start dropping in bushels. But Vic and Ruiz scare me, and I'd like to see more Coste in there (also for the pitching management I talked about earlier).

[Dave X]

I agree with people up above that Reyes is overrated... Mets fans always come here and talk like he's the best SS in all of baseball. He's good (and young, so he can improve), but no MVP candidate.

[J. Weitzel]

Maine and the rest of the Mets staff pitched great. They deserved the win. The final ruling was incorrect, but it's a minor issue to me, and to many of us.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Dave X, I'd agree that Jose is probably overrated but his 2006 season was definitely MVP caliber (except for homeruns, it was sabremetrically equivalent to Rollins 2007).

[Jack]

Jason- Yeah, Maine pitched well. Other than Heilman the Mets pen pitched prety well, although I thought ours outpitched them. I would say both teams deserved that win, it was a hell of a game.

Except for Eric Bruntlett. Not getting that bunt down is unacceptable.

[Bob]

Agree that the Phillies didn't deserve to win last night. I'm not a Manuel hater. But I'm tired of him taking Burrell out late in the close games no matter what. Yes he's a slow runner but you need his bat. The Phils' lineup by the time they got to extra innings was a bigger joke than the one that started the game.

[Rico Brogna]

Jimmy Rollins career OPS+: 98
Jose Reyes career OPS+: 96

I'm just sayin...

[Jack]

Rico- So Rollins is the better player. Good point.

[Bob]

I wouldn't even consider trading Rollins for Reyes straight up

[Dave X]

I didn't say that Rollins wasn't overrated or that he deserved the MVP either. Jose's 2006 may be 'sabermetrically' equivilent to Rollins' 2007. And almost all sabermetricians would tell you that Rollins was undeserving last year.

[Lunkwill Fook]

I think Rico's point was that their career OPS+ are almost identical and Jose hasn't reached his prime yet.

[Lunkwill Fook]

I agree, Dave X. Just making the point that Jose HAS had an MVP caliber season so he's not exactly chump change.

[Rico Brogna]

A 2 point difference in OPS+ is negligible, and more than made up for by Jose's SB advantage.

[Morty]

No one said Reyes was "chump change," just like no one said he folded like a cheap tent in the 2nd half of last year (wait, I guess I just said that last part.) People did say that they wouldn't trade Rollins straight up for Reyes. Which makes sense if you want to "win now."

[Dave X]

An SB advantage which is more than negated by all the CS.

[Jack]

Lunkwill: Look, no doubt that Reyes at 23 and 24 was better than Rollins at 23 and 24. That said, Jimmy has only gotten better every single year and Reyes has seemingly declined. For this season, anyone would rather have Rollins than Reyes.

[J. Weitzel]

I'm very impressed with the tone of the comments this series. Absolutely no problems from visiting fans, and those representing the other side, like Rico, have been very cordial.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Based on his second half last year, yeah, it would be hard to trade Jose for J-Roll right now. At the same time, Jose has already showed that at his best (2006), he is as good as J-Roll already. So I think, essentially, it's splitting hairs.

[Jack]

Rico- Please look at their SB percentages. Rollins is a much more effective baserunner.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Jack, can't argue with that. Jose has to prove what he can do again while J-Roll has the cred right now. Which, of course, all can change in a half a season (for instance, if Rollins' ankle becomes a constant hinderance and if Jose starts hitting again).

But the long and short of it is the Phillies and Mets both enjoy outstanding shortstops.

[Bob]

reposting

Agree that the Phillies didn't deserve to win last night. I'm not a Manuel hater. But I'm tired of him taking Burrell out late in the close games no matter what. Yes he's a slow runner but you need his bat. The Phils' lineup by the time they got to extra innings was a bigger joke than the one that started the game.

[Morty]

JW:

It's nice not having to skip past comments from illiterate bozos who type using a fist.

Rico, Nice work, smartening up after an inglorious entry.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Concerning Jose's SB percentage: there was a study done this offseason that had Jose ranked as one of the best overall base runners in the game. I'll see if I can find it again.

[Rico Brogna]

Jack:

Reyes for his career has a 80% success rate.

Rollins is 81%.

While Reyes averages 63 SB per season, Rollins only averages 36.

[Lunkwill Fook]

http://www.amazinavenue.com/story/2007/11/16/13240/862

A couple links in there. One study had Jose ranked just ahead of J-Roll.

[Rico Brogna]

Morty:

What inglorious entry are you referring to?

[PB]

On Jose Reyes:

I read an article last year attributing Jose Reyes' second-half woes at the plate to the poor tutelage of Rickey Henderson. Can anyone out there confirm? I'm wondering, from the Mets' fans perspective, if this theory holds any water.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Bob, I have to agree. From watching it from a Mets' fan perspective, I had to feel good when Burrell got out of the game (as well as Victorino). To me it meant that, if the Mets could get past Utley and Howard, they had a good chance.

[Rico Brogna]

PB:

Honestly, I don't think anyone knows. There were claims that Castillo was a bad influence on him as well, and I haven't the slightest idea what that was based on.

[Lunkwill Fook]

PB, lots of people have conspiracy theories about Henderson's effect on Jose but, honestly, I think Jose just got into a slump, got frustrated, and just got bad. I doubt Henderson had anything to do with it.

[Morty]

Rico:

Don't play sly.

[MPN]

Rico Brogna: Sure, more steals, but if you take their three year averages (2005-07), J-Roll averaged 127 runs scored compared to Reyes' 113. (And J-Roll scored 119Rs in 2004.) Sure these are counting stats with other variables in play, but unless those extra steals account for more runs scored, they are fairly irrelevant.

[Rico Brogna]

Ah are you referring to the Utley incident? I don't know if I could call that "smartening up" per se. Just admitted that I was a little too hard on him.

[Jack]

Ok, so Rollins isn't a much more effective baserunner. But if they are near equal in baserunning, which seems to be the consensus on that link from Lunkwill, then doesn't Rollins' clear power advantage give him a big edge? I mean, more SB's are nice, but I'll take 10-15 more homers a year over 25 SBs anyday.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Bob,

I agree. I do understand why they take him out, but it always *seems* like his spot comes up with a game on the line and a lesser hitter in place way too often. His bat is too important to constantly go with the defensive replacement formula.

[PB]

There were also a number of reports suggesting that the Mets' brass was too visible in the clubhouse late last season, undermining Randolph. I only ask about Reyes because there seems to be some regression.

[Rico Brogna]

MPN:

Runs scored is a pretty worthless statistic when dealing with two individuals. Reyes has no effect on the guys batting behind him. Neither does Rollins.

If you want to claim that the offense behind Rollins has been better than the offense behind Reyes, that's a whole different story.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Jack, I'd counter that Jose's on base skills equal the edge in power. After all, they ARE both leadoff hitters.

[MPN]

Rico: I disagree completely. If you want to make steals an issue then steals must translate into something else. Otherwise it is also a "worthless statistic."

[Jack]

Lunkwill- You mean Reyes' career OBP of .329, as compared to Rollins' .331?

Neither are great OBP leadoff guys, but to me, Jimmy's power makes him the superior player right now.

Be honest and objective- are you guys at least somewhat worried about Reyes' 2nd half last year and start to this year? I can't imagine how you couldn't be.

[Andy]

The piece missing in the Rollins/Reyes discussion is who is a more positive influence on the team. I would argue that Rollins is (by far IMO) a better team leader.

[Rico Brogna]

Jack:

Jimmy's HRs are included in his OPS+. Jose's SBs are not.

Jimmy's main problem is his low OBP. His OPS+ also gets lowered a little for park factor.

[Jack]

If both Reyes and Rollins are playing at their best, Reyes gives you about 10-15 more points of OBP, and Rollins gives you about 60 points more of slugging. You can weight those how you want, but I'll take Rollins right now, for this season, over Reyes without a 2nd thought. And I think you guys would too if you were being honest with yourselves.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Jack, you are right about career. But based on Jose now (even last year) and Rollins now, Jose's on base skills ARE superior (especially if you consider age-based comparisons). But, like I said, regardless I think both teams have excellent shortstops that any team could want.

And, yes, Mets fans everywhere are concerned about Jose' hitting. To be honest, we're hoping his double last night is the start of some renewed confidence.

[Rico Brogna]

MPN:

What they lead to is pointless. You're talking about including other players on the team when we're trying to discuss individuals.

[Jack]

Andy, yeah, just statistically I'd say they are about even, although I still say I would rather have Jimmy's power. When it comes to the intangibles, although they are of course impossible to quantify, I'm not sure there is a better clubhouse leader right now in the game than Jimmy. There is no doubt his confidence helps other players out, and I say that as a stat person who is naturally skeptical of intangibles.

Just cause you can't count them though, doesn't mean they don't exist, and it is stupid to act as though they don't.

[Lunkwill Fook]

I'm sorry but the whole confidence and "team leader" thing is seriously overrated. Where was this "confidence" when the Phillies were finishing short of the playoffs years in a row (I just moved from Philly so I've been around for most of that).

Confidence and leadership come with winning. It's simple as that.

[MPN]

Rico: Well, here is something to consider, how many times would Jimmy steal if the lineup behind him was not as potent? The lineup plays a role in this "individual" stat. You can't disaggregate the issue. Good try though.

[bay_area_phan]

Bob: I hate it when Cholly substitutes for Burrell in a close game which the Phillis are winning. The odds of the other team coming back & tying are not all that slim and, if that happens, we'd be much better off having Burrell's bat in the game. In this game, however, we were losing and it was already the 8th inning. In that situation, it's more important to tie the game than to worry about what might happen in a 10th or 11th inning that will never happen unless you are first able to tie it. So in this situation, I think Cholly was absolutely correct to pinch run with Taguchi. In fact, I've been one of Cholly's bigger bashers, but he really hasn't made any colossal blunders that I can recall this year. Either he's getting smarter or my tolerance for his bone-headed decisions has just gotten greater.

Plain and simple, you can't go 0 for 12 with RISP and expect to win. The Phillies' starting pitching has been somewhat better than expected this year. Their bullpen has been downright terrific. And we even have a bunch of hitters who have been very hot(Burrell, Utley, Jenkins, Werth, Rollins). The problem is, interspersed between all these hot hitters are a bunch of guys who have been automatic outs for the first 2 weeks of the season-- Vic, Howard, Feliz, Ruiz, Bruntlett, Taguchi. That's how you get a line like last night's, of 0 for 12 with RISP.

[Rico Brogna]

MPN: Time for a hypothetical.

If Jimmy Rollins hits 75 doubles and 40 triples next year, along with 100 steals, but nobody on his team can drive him in, would you consider his hits worthless? Would you consider him a bad player?

[Morty]

"I've been one of Cholly's bigger bashers, but he really hasn't made any colossal blunders that I can recall this year. Either he's getting smarter or my tolerance for his bone-headed decisions has just gotten greater."

I think the later. How else would you explain batting Brunlett 2nd for 2 straight games?

[Jack]

Lunkwill- Well, considering your team showed none of those qualities, I'm not surprised you discount them.

While it's probably true to some extent that winning creates chemistry, you can't discount the fact that Rollins and others kept the team focused and playing hard when down 7 with 17 to play. Like I said before, I'm a big stat guy who believes that intangibles tend to be generally overrated, but to act as if they don't exist because you can't count them is stupid. If you've played team sports, you know that the enviornment around a team can have an effect on how you play.

[MPN]

You misunderstand me completely. I am not saying that Reyes is a bad player. He is very, very good. My point is, don't try to soft soap us by saying that his steals make him a better player than Jimmy. Look, this is obviously a philosophical question like Bird vs. Magic. Which player is better? Depends on what team you root for.

[PB]

At some point we all have to ask ourselves if Milt Thompson should share some of the blame for these anemic ABs. It's downright painful to watch Feliz and Vic try to hit.

[Lunkwill Fook]

Jack, there are intangibles. But, like you said yourself, a good deal of those are tied into winning. If the Mets had managed to beat the Phillies by one game (instead of the reverse), people would be talking about how David Wright pulled them together from the brink of disaster. It's just one of those things.

Certainly, there were no talks of a lack of leadership on the Mets in 2006 with essentially the same cast of characters.

[Rico Brogna]

MPN: All I said was the steals make up for a 2 point difference in career OPS+. You can't really argue that.

[Drew]

I feel like this series showed that these teams are more evenly matched than anyone wants to admit on either side. Both bullpens were decent, offenses are just getting going, and starting pitching that is good as well. Discouting the errors made on both sides, these two are in for a dogfight throughout the year.

[Jack]

PB: Feliz is what he is, and he's not gonna change cause of Milt Thompson. He's a guy who is not a good hitter, but gives you the occasional home run like the one last night. He hacks a lot and doesn't walk.

You might be onto something with Victorino. Someone needs to work with him about his hitting style. He's bad right now.

[Dave X]

The baserunning study linked to had Reyes being worth 2.2 net runs via baserunning. In other words, the difference between his impact and Rollins's is insignificant. But a 2 point difference in OPS+ is also insignificant.

It really depends on who you think plays better defense.