Phils-Mets washed out; twin bill slated for Sunday

As expected, the second game of the series has been rescheduled for tomorrow as part of a day-night doubleheader, with the opener set for 2:15 p.m., followed by the prime-time bout at 8:05 p.m. High winds and heavy rain are expected to beseige the Metropolitan area into tomorrow morning. The good news is that it makes chosing between Phillies baseball and Penn State football easy, but presents a challenge for those hoping to focus on tomorrow's Eagles opener, slated for 1 p.m. In other news, second baseman Tadahito Iguchi officially joined the Phillies today. He will be in uniform tomorrow, but since he was added after Aug. 31, he is not eligible for the post-season.

Comments

[EastFallowfield]

From their website:

The Phillies-Mets game originally scheduled for Saturday, Sept. 6th, has been postponed due to weather and rescheduled for Sunday (Sept. 7th). The CW Philly will broadcast the game on Sunday at 2:00 PM.

[phargo]

Gooch!

I hope Philly has the same salutary affect on him this year as it had last year.

[Bonehead]

Thanks for the info, East.
Its pitiful that phillies.com doesn't pass on that information.

[PhillR]

Man last night was a good game. I knew Myers would be hard on the Mets. If we win tonight, its a whole new season.

[PhillR]

*I mean Sunday obviously now. duh.

[EastFallowfield]

If we win tonight, it's an alternate reality. (wink)

MLB websites are more about promoting MLB.TV then local broadcast outlets.

[baxter]

i was afraid i'd go a weekend without hearing that "swing batta-batta" hoedown song.

[clout]

If someone had told me before the season that Feliz and Golson would be the most beloved players on Beerleaguer I never would've believed it. With curt, baxter, Mike C., jobbers, BedBeard and several others defending him against any and all criticism, there are now more posters supporting Golson than ever supported Burrell or Howard.

Breathtaking.

[clout]

I like Cholly decision to go with Hamels in game 1 instead of saving him for the Santana matchup. The Phillies need a sweep, not a split. It's more high-risk to start Hamels first, because if he loses, odds of a Mets sweep are great. But it's also more high reward and a Hamels win would rest the bullpen and boost Moyer's confidence for the matchup vs. Santana.

[Bubba]

Was that the fastest hook ever on Dubee last night??
He must have suggested Cors Light to a Yuengling drinker the way he was booted.
Fewer Coaches ..... More Wins.
The Coaching staffs version of the BL reverse jinx, I guess

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Wow, I can't even defend Golson's speed. Unbelievable. Keep telling me how good Kendrick is...please.

[clout]

BedBeard: You weren't defending Golson's speed. You were defending his decision to run on that pitch. A decision that Lopes said was poor. I just don't know why you love to sniff the jock of a guy whose track record is weak and has yet to have an NL at bat.

[Sophist]

clout - where did you read Manuel is switching the SP for tomorrow?

That is an interesting decision. I think I like it too, though it does open the risk of a Hamels loss. Moyer, with few exceptions, has pitched very well this year. It wouldn't surprise me if he could match Santana -- at least in terms of the only result that matters, runs -- for 6 or 7 innings tomorrow.

In 14 starts away from CBP, Moyer is 8-3. 86 IP, 2.83 ERA, .692 OPS against, 1.209 WHIP.

That compares favorably with Santana's starts at Shea.

13 starts, 6-3, 89 IP, 2.22 ERA, .653 OPS against, 1.157 WHIP.

[jobbers]

Clout: Where was I defending Golson?

The point I was trying to get across was the apparent discrepancy between Golson thinking he had a green light form Manuel to steal, yet Lopes seemingly criticising him afterwards for stealing. Who makes the decision?

[Sophist]

"I think I like it too, though it does open the risk of a Hamels loss."

What I mean is that, if Hamels losses, the decision looks like a disaster. Hamels has been unbelievable of late, though.

5 G, 3-0, 36.1 IP, 1.49 ERA, 1 HR, .886 WHIP, .512 OPS against.

[clout]

They were talking about it on WIP. So consider the source.

[jobbers]

Phillies.com still has Moyer v Pedro at 2.15pm, though I like your thoughts on Hamels going first (though in the daytime) to spare the bullpen for game 2

[clout]

jobbers: Did Golson, in fact, have a green light from Manuel?

Lopes didn't want him running because if he's thrown out, Dobbs would have had to take a position in the field or be lost as a pinch-hitter. I'd be real surprised if Cholly disagreed with that.

[ribbies]

Hamels does tend to be much better at night though, tough call. Hopefully we'll be in the mets pen early in game 1 against Pedro and tire them out for a late comeback against Santana.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

jobbers,

I guess the "Manager" giving a green light isn't good enough for Clout. Probably would've made him happy if Golson was thrown out, so he can criticize him for running.

[clout]

ribbies: That's one reason to hold Hamels for late and the other may be that he's been preparing for the night start and a day start might put him off his routine. But a split, which is the likely outcome of a Hamels-Santana matchup, still leaves the Phils 2 back.

I prefer going all in for the sweep, having a rested pen for Moyer in the nightcap and the Mets feeling must-win pressure. Of course, if Hamels were to somehow lose to Pedro in Game 1, the odds would shift dramatically.

[clout]

BedBeard: Did Manuel give him the green light? Can you cite a source? Is it possible the object of your affections was mistaken?

[MG]

Basically except the game on Aug. 24 against the Dodgers where Feliz has had a few timely hits (where he had 1 HR and 4 RBI), Feliz has nothing a whole lotta nothing since his return on Aug. 21:

- 15 G, 40 AB, 8 H (including a mightly 1 XHB), .200 AVG, 1 HR, 5 RBI, 4, 3 BB, 7 K

His line in 15 G since his return off the DL is .200/.250/.275 for a mightly OPS of .525.

That stinks and I don't see Feliz is going to improve much down the stretch with a bad back.

Basically, there is no reason why Dobbs shouldn't be starting everyday at 3B vs. RHP down the stretch. Especially since the Phils have another lefty PH bat off the bench now in Stairs.

Feliz should really be riding alot of pine except against LHP and as a defensive replacement late in games. Of course, Cholly will continue to trot him out there because of his slavish devotion to defense at 3B even though Feliz is basically an automatic out against RHP right now.

This move (along with continuing to put Bruntlett in LF as a late inning defensive replacement) are proof positive that Cholly remains a below-average tactical manager.

[phlipper]

Ok, I'm going to try out a Beerleaguer reverse jinx.

Ordinarily, if the Phils manage to make up the ground between them and the Mets - I'd see the following scenario as highly probable.

Phils last game of the season: Due to a rainouit earlier in the series with the Nats, they are 1/2 game behind the Mets and the Brewers. The win, they clinch the NL east. If they lose, they're tied in the standings with both teams and are out of the playoffs due to losing overall head-to-head records against both clubs.

Top of the ninth, Phils ahead by two runs against the Nats. Colly leaves Hamels in the game to nail down the complete game victory. Hamels puts the first three two batters on. Cholly lifts Hamels to bring in Lidge. Lidge is a perfect 38 out of 38 in save chances. He strikes out the first two batters he faces on six pitches, gets ahead 0-2, and then gives up the game-winning bases clearing triple to a Nat September callup on a play where Taguchi (in as a defensive replacement) misjudges a fly ball and then throws over the catcher's head on a play where the runner should clearly been out at the plate by a mile. Utley, Howard, and Burrell strike out in the bottom of the ninth.

Phew! I feel better now. Given the infallibility of the BL reverse jinx - I now know it could never happen.

[TJH]

Still have 4 tix at shea tomorrow for the now 2pm game. Anyone wants email tjholman96@gmail.com

[MG]

I know Dobbs numbers as a starter at 3B aren't great .273/.315/.438 (OPS .753) but there is still a HUGE difference between these numbers and what Feliz has done since he comes back.

With this offense continuing to struggle (averaging less than 4 runs since Aug. 1 which places them at 10th in NL), the Phils just can't to keep trotting Feliz out there for 3 or 4 ABs a night.

Sometimes it amazes how utterly stubborn/foolish Cholly can be once he gets a notion into his head.

[phlipper]

Oh wait - Burrell was lifted so he couldn't strike out. I guess that Dobbs pinch-hitting (with the highest average as a pinch hitter in the league) would be the third out.

[clout]

flipper: Everyone knows that Dobbs can't possibly hit when he starts at 3B.

[MG]

I like the move of putting Hamels in Game 1 vs. Pedro and Moyer in Game 2. Basically, gives the Phils at better shot at let getting a split and realistically keep their chances alive in the NL East because a deficit of 2 vs 4 games is huge.

As for Moyer, we will see if he pitches well but I have my doubts. He got pounded by the Mets two weeks ago and the Cubs hit him pretty hard too. You have to wonder if Moyer isn't beginning to hit the wall too with 166 IP already pitched and on pace to finish with over 200 IP.

Last point on Moyer - last year in Sept. he has 6 starts and he was basically either pretty good or terrible. Really wasn't much in between. Lets' hope he can pull a rabbit out of his hat again and largely keep the Mets stymied. If Moyer doesn't go 6 or he gives up more than 3 runs in the nightcap, I don't think the Phils have a shot.

[MG]

philipper - Yeah and Bruntlett almost dropped that critical fly ball in LF because he completely misread it. Saving Dobbs just to PH is utterly foolish given this offense's struggles and the non-contributions from Feliz.

[TK]

Anyone know if mlb extra innings will pick up tomorrow's first game?

[MG]

My issue with Cholly always has been two things:

1. He is utterly clueless when it comes to handling his pitching staff especially his bullpen
2. He gets these foolish notions in his head (like hitting Utley/Howard back-to-back in the lineup, replacing Burrell in LF with a marginal defensive upgrade, and completely disregarding offensive output at 3B in lieu of defense).

People complain that the front office hasn't given Cholly much in the way of upgrades this year in-season. I would largely agree with the exception of Blanton and Eyre.

Still, Cholly just doesn't use the pieces he has well at times and isn't a strong tactical manager.

[Jobbers]

Clout: Manuels 'green light' and Lopes contradiction that you quote are in the same article on phillies.com. I posted the link on the previous thread but just for you:

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com
/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080905&content_id=
3422958&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi

a little circumstantial I will admit, but I will ask my question again .. who decides whether the steal should be attempted? Manuel or Lopes?

[PhillR]

Nothing stopping the Mets from swapping their starters too though.

Frankly they would be foolish not too. A short start from Pedro in game 1 will probably set the up for disaster in game 2.

[phlipper]

MG. Huh? I wasn't trying to rehash the whole Dobbs/Feliz starting debate. And stop messing with my reverse jinx scenario.

But as it happens, I forgot to mention that in my last game of the season hypothetical, the reason why the Phils had a two-run lead was because Feliz (who started) jacked one with a runner on in the bottom of the 8th.

[jobbers]

Can someone (Sophist of course!) give us a quick summary of how Werth has been getting on with regular playing time? Specifically the splits against LHP and RHP?

[phlipper]

Good point, clout.

Oh, and after you pointed out to me a while back that I was an idiot for thinking that the Phils would have been better finishing the season with Manny in left field (btw, how's he doing with LA since the trade?) than Burrell, I began to see that your opinion of yourself is indeed accurate: you're absolutely right about everything.

[Sophist]

"If they lose, they're tied in the standings with both teams and are out of the playoffs due to losing overall head-to-head records against both clubs."

MLB playoffs don't work that way, flipper. A 1 game (or more if more than 2 teams are involved) decides the playoff team. See Rockies vs Padres for the WC last year. Rockies had won the season series, but a 1 game playoff was played anyway.

The season series is only relevant when 2 teams from the same division tie for the division title and both would win the WC. In that case the team with the better head-to-head record is the "division winner" but the other team is the WC winner.

----

Jobbers - that article doesn't say if Manuel gave him the green light or not. It only say Golson thought Manuel gave him one.

[jobbers]

Sophist: I know, I did say it was a bit circumstantial. But doesn't Lopes say to Golson "on no account try to steal a base now" and then explain why afterwards?

[jobbers]

Sophist: It also begs the question as to what did Manuel say (if anything) to Golson to make him think he had a green light?

Still no-one answered my question, who makes the decision about whether to steal or not?

[Sophist]

Here's Werth's monthy breakdowns this year

LHP -- RHP

April:

LHP: .321/.441/.714 (34 PA)
RHP: .250/.315/.458 (54 PA)

May:

LHP: .280/.280/.640 (25 PA)
RHP: .185/.290/.296 (31 PA)

June:

LHP: .273/.333/.545 (24 PA)
RHP: .280/.438/.320 (32 PA)

July:

LHP: .321/.387/.643 (31 PA)
RHP: .265/.359/.353 (39 PA)

Aug:

LHP: .348/.400/.913 (25 PA)
RHP: .300/.443/.533 (79 PA)

Sept:

LHP: .200/.333/.200 (6 PA)
RHP: .111/.200/.111 (10 PA)

[clout]

flipper: I'm often wrong. But not remotely as often as you are.

[Sophist]

Here's Howard lately vs LHP

Before AS: .185/.245/.363
July: .234/.294/.362
Aug: .226/.385/.484
Sept: .286/.286/.857

That Aug OBP is nice. He worked 8 walks, which is his most against LHP since May. Not surprisingly, that was his other good month: .286/.380/.690.

[fljerry]

Who was taken off the 40 man roster for Iguchi

[philsphan]

fljerry: Hopefully it was TJ Bohn.

[MG]

I could care less about jinxes, rabbit foots, or whatever such garbage.

My point was the Feliz has been offensively pathetic since his return (basically all of his offensive contributions the past 15 G came in that one game vs the Dodgers on the 24th) and should be riding pine along with stiffs like Bruntlett and Taguchi.

[Sophist]

Phillies.com doesn't list Iguchi yet. Among IF, Cervanek, Harman, and Tracy are listed. Harman isn't on the active roster, so he wouldn't surprise me. Bohn would be the right choice among OF, as -- besides Jenkins -- he's the only OF on the 40 man not active.

[clout]

Jobbers: The point is that you were defending Golson on the grounds that Manuel gave him a green light. The point sophist and I are making is this: There is no evidence that Manuel gave him the green light. And if you read what Lopes said, it seems very unlikely that Manuel did.

[clout]

MG: Flipper thinks Feliz should play every day because Dobbs can't hit when he starts at 3B. He is magically trasnformed into a different player when he pinch hits. (And apparently when he plays corner OF).

[MG]

JRoll very quietly has started to heat up the last two weeks or so. More impressive though than the hits is that he has been walking a really decent clip too/stealing his share of bags.

If the Phils are going to have enough offense to win down the stretch, JRoll needs to have a big Sept. and I bet he delivers.

[MG]

One last point about JRoll:

It is funny how JRoll has got this reputation as a being a guy who really turns in "on" in Sept yet:

- 2004 (.857 OPS which 3rd best month of
- 2006 (.830 OPS which was barely his 2nd best month of the year)
- 2007 (.875 OPS which was only 3rd best month of the year)

It was only in 2005 where he clearly had the best month of his season in Sept (1.105 OPS which was by far and away his best month of the year).

JRol clearly does play well when the pace increases in Sept (which best career month by far) but it is not that JRoll's just turns it on only in Sept. either although he does tend to be a slow starter in April/May.

[jobbers]

Clout: You seem an intelligent person but I don't see how you could link me pointing out an apparent contradiction in that phillie.com article to me defending Golson.

I have already said the green light comment in the article is a little circumstantial. I don't know whether Manuel did or did not give Golson the green light. But neither do you!

Let me put it another way . . in a hypothetical world a baseball manager gives a rookie pinch runner permission to attempt to steal 2nd base. The pinch runner gets to first base where a first base coach (well known as a base stealer and base stealing coach) DOES NOT say anything along the lines of "this is not a good time to steal". The pinch runner then promptly steals a base and after the game the first base coach implies that it was bad time to steal and maybe the pinch runner should not have stolen the base.

Who is right and who is wrong?

And even if the manager did not implicitly give this pinch runner the green light should the base coach told the pinch runner not to attempt a steal?

Now do you see the point I am making? If not let me make it easy for you . . who makes the decision about whether to steal a base in a particular situation? Manager / first base coach / pinch runner?

[MG]

Contrast to JRoll who tends to play big when Sept rolls around with Reyes who dances around lot but tends to come up small in Sept during his career:

- 2005 (.671 OPS in Sept which was his 5th best month of the year)
- 2006 (.796 OPS in Sept which was his 3rd best month of the year)
- 2007 (.612 OPS in Sept which was his WORST month of the year)

And Reyes isn't exactly off to a stellar start in Sept either (.653 OPS so far).

If the Mets do miss the playoffs again this year and Reyes plays poorly and largely dances around, I think that he might get the rightfully-earned reputation as a "choker" when the stakes increase.

[MG]

Either way, if I had to take JRoll or Reyes this month that is a no-brainer.

[PhillR]

The notion that the stakes are higher in September then any other month is crazy. Every game up until you clinch or are eliminated is equally important.

In actuality the only games the can really matter less are in September, after a clinch or elimination.

[mikes77phillies]

Welcome back Tadahito Iguchi! Finally, a bench player who can actually bunt or advance a runner into scoring position.

[Sophist]

I thought these comments from Joe Sheehan re: management and talent in the NL were interesting:

...

Of course, McLane's mistake is the NL's problem in a nutshell. For nearly a decade now, the emphasis has been on being good enough, rather than on being great. The Yankees and the Red Sox, the A's and the Angels, all set tones in the AL in the early part of the 2000s, forcing everyone to either build teams that could win 95 games, or abandon hope of contending. Some teams did the latter, which is why the AL, while being the superior league, has had something of an underclass of franchises in constant rebuilding mode. At the top, however, the work by the front offices and the willingness of a number of owners to plow profits into the baseball operation set the standard for the entire league.

The NL didn't have that. There was no NL version of Billy Beane or Theo Epstein, and there was certainly no George Steinbrenner or Arte Moreno. There was no striving for excellence, but rather an understanding that, if you built a decent team, caught some breaks, and maybe made the right move at the trade deadline, you could win 89 games and reach the postseason. For most franchises, it was enough to aim lower. Over time, the effect was a league with inferior talent, on field and off, and an incredible amount of parity. That's how, in consecutive seasons, an 82-win team and an 83-win team have made the playoffs. It's how a team with no more than 85 wins made the postseason in each year since 2004, a streak that will probably continue this year. The NL isn't inferior to the AL just by chance. It's inferior, to a large extent, by choice—the kind of choice that Drayton McLane made when he hired Ed Wade and told him to try to win in 2008, and the choice he'll make when he tells him to try and win in 2009.

[Sophist]

PhillR - No one is arguing that wins in September are worth more in the standings (1.5 wins or something.) Only that, because the end is near and the situation a team is in crystallizes, everything seems bigger.

True, what is at "stake" isn't any higher. 2 wins tomorrow are like 2 wins in April. But a possible tie for the East is also at stake tomorrow. I'd say the value of that tie are higher in Sept than April.

[clout]

sophist: And I'd be willing to bet the NL is making more money.

[Sophist]

Yep. Just have to wonder why no one in the NL sees the opportunity to be the NL Yankees, though, who clearly are making money.

[clout]

sophist: I'd say the Mets are following that model and can because they are the only NL team with a 17.7 million metropolitan area, which creates the TV network and ad revenues that allow operation at a higher level.

[Sophist]

Yeah, I guess in the last 2-3 years their spending has reached Red Sox levels. Red Sox have been spending ~130M since 2004 (~143M in 2007.)

The Mets spent ~100M until 2007 when they spend ~115M and 2008 where they are spending ~138M. This is all according to Cot's.

But no one in the NL is spending the 200M the Yankees have been spending since 2005.

[bay_area_phan]

So, Game 1 of today's Oakland-Baltimore day-night double-header has been rained out, but they're still hoping to get Game 2 in. Kind of an oddity. A double-header where they play only the second game, but not the first. Something about that doesn't square with my sense of logic.

[J. Weitzel]

It's a real Elks Lodge of Beerleaguers today, with MG, clout, BAP, Sophist and others holding fort. Everyone should be drinking 75 cent drafts.

[phReed]

and how bout those Yanks? first time since the beginning of Bubba's second stint. It is odd to think that Yankee Stadium's last game will be a regular season one. Maybe the baseball gods are sending a message that Bobby's home field should stay. Either way, that will be one expensive ticket.

The good thing about than Yanks not making it is that attention will be turned to the stadium. The House that Ruth built deserves the props.

[phReed]

since I'm crashing the party...drinks are on phReed. gotta like those prices. Nothing like getting smashed on $10 (w/o tip of course).

[Sophist]

75 cents. If only.

[joe l]

Interleague Wins By League:

1997	97	117
1998	114	110
1999	116	135
2000	136	115
2001	132	120
2002	123	129
2003	115	137
2004	126	125
2005	136	116
2006	154	98
2007	137	115
2008	149	103

Seems fairly even if you discount 2006 and 2008. Sure, the AL ends up winning more all-star "games" and World Series titles, but like clout said, I bet the NL makes more money with their parity. Just like the DH, I despise the AL model but I can live with the fact that we have two very different leagues. It keeps things interesting and provides contrast. If only MLB limited the leagues meeting to the World Series. But that is another subject.

[phlipper]

"MG: Flipper thinks Feliz should play every day because Dobbs can't hit when he starts at 3B. "

No clout, I never said Feliz should start every day. The next time you base your argument on what I've actually said, rather than your twisted version of it, will be the first.

Also, it isn't that I think Dobbs has hit better when he PHs than when he starts. I know it. Check the stats. It is simply a fact that he has. It could be a statistical anomaly due to small sample size or it could just reflect that Dobbs is better when he PHs for any of a variety of possible reasons. What slays me is that in your inflated sense of yourself you think your opinion as to the answer, is, by definition, a fact.

[Sophist]

Sheets gets it done. CG, 0 R. Brewers only score 1 on Peavy.

[clout]

flipper: "No clout, I never said Feliz should start every day."

That's news to me. We had a whole long thread with you saying that Dobbs shouldn't start at 3B because he was too valuable off the bench. I just assumed that meant you thought Feliz should start everyday. If you didn't mean that, then pray tell, what did you mean? That Bruntlett should start?

[Marc H]

If the Phillies start Hamels in the PM game, they have a better shot at getting a split. Why you ask?? I will be at the Eagles game, which means I won't be watching. Hence, my world renowened jinx won't apply.

Worked Friday night--I don't watch (saw a movie with my wife) and BOOM-they win

[Rusty E]

Has anyone mentioned the Phils will need a spot starter now on Thursday. (vs Sheets)

Unless one of the two starters throws very few pitch tommorow, we could be looking at Haap.

Only good news about the Brewers series is that it looks like they'll miss CC

[Sophist]

Rusty - I posted earlier something along those lines. Lauber says:

Joe Blanton will start Monday night against the Marlins at Citizens Bank Park. No word yet on Tuesday night, although it's likely J.A. Happ will get the start. Brett Myers will pitch Wednesday in the finale against Florida, and Kyle Kendrick most likely will pitch Thursday night against the Brewers.

[phReed]

bring Sheets on!

Keep Hamels at night - historically better and ESPN cameras.

[MG]

phReed - That is a great point. Forget that sunlight is Hamels' kryptonite.

JW - $0.75/draft I wish when I am watching the Eagles up in SF tomorrow. At least it is a little early to start at 10:30 in the morning out here. Have to wait until at least half-time.

[phReed]

I'm cool with KK being saved for the righty-laden Brew Crew. Outside of Fielder, there's nothing really to be scared about.

MG, $1 screwdrivers.

[phlipper]

clout,

What I said all along was that I thought that Feliz should be semi-platooned. I have also said that anyone who thinks that starting Dobbs in place of Feliz against every RHP they face would make a huge difference in the Phils' won/lost record is kidding themselves.

First, I think it is likely that if Dobbs started against all the righthanders he wouldn't perform nearly at the level he has as a PH - and would more than likely bat just about as well as he has when starting this year, if not a little worse - which while better than Feliz, it isn't a as ridiculous a comparison as it is with Dobbs' PH stats.

Second, you would lose Dobbs' excellent abilities as a PH in crucial stages of the game. That would be big.

Third, you would have a weaker defense.

I never said anything different. I just disagree with your intense vitriol towards Feliz, and apparently that opens the door for you to make up whatever you'd like to mischaracterize what I do say.

[Spitz]

@MG: where are you watching the eagles game in SF? I am an SF resident and usually go to Greens on Polk.

[MG]

Spitz - Kezar's Pub on Stanyan. I will be wearing a '79 Phils retro hat with jeans/red polo

[len39]

2pm can't get here fast enough. What an epic day this is going to be.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Small world. I used to live a block away from Kezar's on Stanyan. I was literally there 3 or 4 nights a week.

[MG]

BAP - Kezar isn't the greatest sports in the world but still one of the better ones in SF although the bar is kind of low.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Actually, despite the name, I never thought of it as a sports bar at all. It's more like the neighborhood pub.

[Not trying to be a pube]

I believe the phrase is "holding court" or "holding the fort down" (more accurately: holding down the fort). Though in fairness, a combination of the two is exactly what the stalwart, beerleaguer posters did this fine evening.

[jobbers]

In some ways I prefer these threads to game ones, mostly because it is not full of the doom and gloom type posts every time the Phillies lose a run, a lead or a game. I also learn a lot more

[Andy]

flipper: I'm often wrong. But not remotely as often as you are.

clout - Nice quote.

[EastFallowfield]

Mets have 2 days off the next 4 days. How lucky is that?

[phargo]

Good Morning.

Correction from yesterday- I meant "effect", not "affect". That's an annoying error. I promise not to use apostrophes incorrectly.

Anyhoo.

Go Phillies! Should be an exciting day.

[MFiP]

Mets finish the year by playing 17 days in a row. Phillies have two days off in that span.

[EastFallowfield]

Right, but Mets get 2 off days out of 4 right after a doubleheader. And they should have a fresh Wagner back for their 17 straight.

[clout]

flipper: Thanks for clarifying your position. although it's confusing which may be why I got it wrong. You say Feliz should be "semi-platooned" whatever that means but then you say Dobbs shouldn't start because he's a different person when he pinch hits (apparently his stats against the Mets Friday night don't count) so isn't useful on offense plus he's worse in the field and you lose him as PH. Which, I take to mean that you think Bruntlett should start when Feliz isn't. Did I get it right?

[phlipper]

but then you say Dobbs shouldn't start because he's a different person when he pinch hits

Clout, are you incapable of making an argument without claiming that someone said something they never said?

I didn't say Dobbs "shouldn't start." I'm saying that you are way over-evaluating the costs vs. benefits of starting him every time the Phils face a right-handed pitcher. You act as if there are only benefits and no costs, and so your opinion that it's a no-brainer, and that anyone who questions your exalted analysis is an "idiot."

Is there really any point in repeating what I said again since you'll just mischaracterize it again? Ok, let's give it a shot?

There are pluses and minuses to starting Dobbs instead of Feliz against RHP. The plus is that he'd hit better - but just how much better is debatable. It is my contention that he'd hit somewhat better than Feliz, but using his current aggregate stats as a comparison to figure out how much better is misleading - as they are inflated by his PH numbers, which I think are higher than he'd perform when starting on a regular basis. My guess is that with a significantly higher number of starts, he'd wind up slightly below his current stats when starting - which are better than Feliz's, but not all that much better.

Couple that with the fact that you'd lose him as a PH in crucial late inning spots, and that you'd be giving up defense, and you get a fairly close cost/benefit analysis.

I figured you'd be bright enough to get what "semi-platooning" means (a phrase I think came from Sophist, although I'm not sure). I guess I figured wrong. What I meant by that term I'd give Dobbs more starts than he's getting now, but wouldn't start him against all right-handers the Phils face, as you and some others advocate. Yeah, I'd probably throw Bruntlett in to start a few games vs. right-handers every now and then, and also start Feliz against right-handers sometimes as well - specifically against weaker opposing pitchers (when I'm expecting the Phils to score runs anyway so I'd be more focused on defense) or when the Phils have a pitcher going who tends to get a lot of grounders towards the left side of the infield.

Ok. Let's see if for probably the first time you can actually respond without saying that I said something that I never said.

[Mark B.]

Great game by Moyer and Dobbs. But some of the luster was lost by the game 2 loss. Fans were really hoping for a sweep. Imagine the NY headjobs after that. The Phils have to keep the offense awake and keep winning. Look at the Mets' final 7 games; 4 vs the Cubs and 3 vs Florida. Without Wagner, it smells like a 2nd collapse in the making. Phils’ final 6 games; 3 Atlanta and 3 Washington. Glad to see Iguchi back in red and white pinstripes. Can they hold on to him this time and make him a utility player for next season? IMHO, a vast improvement over Bruntlett.