Breaking news: Phils lock up Madson for three years

According to the Inquirer’s Jim Salisbury, the Phillies have signed reliever Ryan Madson to a three-year extension worth $12 million plus incentives.

The deal buys out the 28-year-old’s final arbitration year and takes him two years deep in free agency. The setup man and Scott Boras client reportedly turned down the Phils’ three-year, $12 million offer last week. Details on the incentives have not been reported. Beerleaguer: The only downside here is that Mad Dog won’t have the added motivation of pitching for a lucrative new deal. As I wrote on Thursday, Madson made a wise decision to accept the long-term commitment considering the economic climate and cash in on his exceptional performance in 2008. Like Cole Hamels, this is another fair deal. The reliever, who's set to become one of the longest-tenured athletes in Philadelphia with this new deal, stepped on the gas and became an integral part of the September stretch run and postseason. From the Phillies' perspective, it's a vote of confidence that Madson can bridge the gap to Brad Lidge for the next few seasons.

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Comments

[Sophist]

I've been on this guy's bandwagon for two years now. Glad they locked him up.

2007 - 26 - 56.0 IP - 1.268 - 19 R - 5/8 IRS - .231/.311/.356
2008 - 27 - 82.7 IP - 1.234 - 29 R - 13/37 IRS - .254/.306/.370

Sample size effect it may be, he's also a solid high leverage pitcher. .638 OPS against in high leverage last year.

[CY]

BAP - Re werth. Waiting to see how he does is probably the smart thing. I don't see him outperforming his percieved value in the first half of next year. So if he has a good first half, we lock him up, if not then hopefully Ibanez and Taylor are looking good.

[CY]

JW - you say you don't like to be surprisd, did this one catch you off guard or was it on your radar. I assume that it was since he reporterdly turned down an offer recently.

How about the Hamels deal?

[CJ]

I think I'm likely one of the biggest Madson backers on this site. He's ESSENTIAL to our bullpen's success. This means Madson-Lidge is locked up through 2011.

GREAT JOB!!!

I'm sure this will be a shock to all those who said there was no way the front office would get this done!

[bay_area_phan]

Many on this blog have wondered if Madson's 2nd half last year was a fluke. I doubt it very seriously. First, he was already pretty good even before his great second half last year. Second, the reason he became so dominant last year is because of a sharp spike in velocity, which he attributes to mechanical changes in his delivery. There's no reason to think that his velocity is suddenly going to drop any time soon.

[CY]

I think I'm likely one of the biggest Madson backers on this site. He's ESSENTIAL to our bullpen's success. This means Madson-Lidge is locked up through 2011.

GREAT JOB!!!

I'm sure this will be a shock to all those who said there was no way the front office would get this done!

Posted by: CJ | Monday, January 19, 2009 at 12:46 PM

**Cough - DPatrone - Cough**

[Brian G]

Good signing by the Phillies, and really good decision for Madson I think. He would have been risking probably 8-9 million with the hope of only getting an extra 2-3 million if he had played out the year and tested the market afterwards. With the health and performance of relievers so historically inconsistent, it makes good financial sense to get yourself taken care of.

[Brian G]

bap: I'm not positive his performance spike wasn't at least somewhat of a fluke, but I agree he was already a valuable player. So worst case scenario we end up overpaying for a solid 6th/7th inning guy. Barring injury, it'll never be an Eaton type contract, where you're throwing money at a guy who shouldn't even be on the team.

[Sophist]

BAP - It's true he already showed signs of his late season performance.

5/10 - 7/20:: 34.0 IP - 1.118 WHIP - 5 R - .584 OPS
8/3 - 9/27::: 26.1 IP - 1.073 WHIP - 7 R - .594 OPS

Postseason: 12.2 IP - .901 - 3 R (9 IR, 0 IRS) - .517 OPS - 166 pitches, 117 strikes

not sure he'll pitch as well as he did in the playoffs though.

[bay_area_phan]

One wonders if, by signing this contract, Madson went against the advice of his agent. It isn't Scott Boras's modus operandi to have his clients resign without testing the free agency market.

[Brian G]

I wanted to throw my two cents into the Howard discussion from yesterday, and what I see as the ridiculousness(not to mention snooty self-righteousness) of clout's injecting race into that discussion.

Mikes77 makes the comparison to the way Utley is treated. Well, name the holes in Utley's game (crickets chirping...)
Here's a better comparison. Howard to Burrell. Both had phenomenal seasons early in their careers that set a bar that was probably unreachable for them again. Both have had obvious holes in their defense, baserunning, and swings, which are things that frustrate many fans, unfairly or not. Oh, and Burrell was absolutely loathed by fans for years. Now Howard is obviously much better than Burrell, but any dislike/frustration fans have with him is considerably less. What color is Burrell again?

Finally, I pretty much hate discussing race in sports, but if you WERE going to make a viable complaint, it might be.. how would people have reacted to the "World f-ing Champions" declaration if a black player had said it?

[Hope SE]

The conventional wisdom after the prior story of refusing $12 million for 3 years was Boras was hell-bent on free agency; pretty much irrespective of any reasonable to good offers.

Did Boras blink? Of did Madson say 'That's not my way' or something to that effect? Or ....???

[MG]

The only downside to Madson's career so far as a reliever is usually about the first 10 days of the season and the inevitable point he seems to hit each year with a dead arm for a bit.

Otherwise, he has been a very solid reliever in his career and relievers who can consistently give you 75-80 innings a year, with an ERA around 3.00, a WHIP at around 1.20, and close to 1 K/IP don't grow on trees either.

[Brian G]

Hope: Maybe this just shows that Boras does work for his clients. If they want him to try and maximize their payout at all costs(usually the case), he'll do that and do it well, but if they change their mind and are looking for security, then that's their decision.

[Phil]

I'm surprised no one has looked at that Brett Myers "rumor" as a form of leverage for Scott Boras to push the Braves and this Madson deal as a form of return to the Phillies for helping.

[yea]

Worse yet "WMFC" BG

[J. Weitzel]

Always thought Madson ran into some bad luck at times, particularly 2007. I'll have to check the numbers, but to the naked eye, it seemed like he got burned many times on good pitches.

[Jimmie J.]

Came a little bit out of the blue but pleased with the signing. Nice job.

[GM-Carson]

With the Hamels, Dobbs, and now Madson contracts Mr. Amaro Jr. is showing he very well might be competent after all.

[Alby]

JW: To my naked eye, it has seemed like Madson's problem was his tendency to miss his spot, when he missed, over the center of the plate. Maybe it's a symptom of the change being his out pitch -- after all, the key to a successful change-up is getting a hitter to jump out of his cleats over what looks like a fat pitch -- but early in Madson's career I thought he'd be a good starter someday, because he had three pitches. That never materialized, obviously.

The key to his future will be an ability to maintain the velocity spike we saw toward the end of last season. BAP, do you recall where you read about his mechanical changes? Because if that's the case, we could indeed be looking at a formidable 8-9 tandem. And I say that as someone skeptical of his ability to perform in pressure situations (that high-low leverage split doesn't really measure "pressure," IMHO, because it's based on how close the score is rather than how important the game is).

Beyond that, I haven't been as miffed with Amaro as many here, but I'm amazed he was able to get this done simply by adding some incentives to the original, rejected offer. I suppose we'll find out what the incentives are when the contract gets filed with the league office.

[Luckbox]

Phil: That's crazy conspiracy level thinking there. There's no way that's the case. None.

[GM-Carson]

Doug Glanville interview on WSBGM's.

[donc]

Many times when a player cant reach a deal with his current club the blame gets heaped on the agent. And often times it is probably true. But in the end it is the players decision to accept or decline an offer. It sounds like Madson may have over-ruled Boras. If so, good for him. Of course if that's the case Boras will probably dump him now.

[CJ]

Bah... Luckbox=CJ.

[MG]

Madson likely did pass up a larger potential payday next year in FA but he never really has made big dollars and frankly it is awfully hard to turn down $12M guaranteed. Hell, you could invest in the most conservative portfolio you live very comfortably off the interest returns alone that 5-6% would get you annually.

[bay_area_phan]

Alby: I don't specifically remember where I read about the mechanical changes. But I definitely recall reading about it. Besides, unless Madson suddenly tests positive for steroids, it's hard to think of any other explanation for his sudden, sharp increase in velocity.

[Hope SE]

Brian G:

That's certainly in the realm of theoretical possibility; but not how I perceive Boras, rightly or wrongly.

[The Truth Injection]

I think at this point you can term this off-season as a B+ for Amaro.

He upgraded the long reliever spot and backup catcher. He got something for Golson that might be useful. He may have overpaid for Ibanez but he will help.

To me the biggest keys to our run in the playoffs were Hamels at the front end of the rotation and Madson/Lidge at the back end. All of those guys are now locked down for the next few years. In Hamels case it probably will save us some cash on the back end. With Madson we keep him without even trying to sniff the market and get a higher money value.

It's hard to fault Amaro for this off-season and in my eyes he took care of some of the most pressing matters.

[Sophist]

"The key to his future will be an ability to maintain the velocity spike we saw toward the end of last season."

That could be a key to maintaining the type of All-Star level success he had in the playoffs, but he was a successful pitcher for large stretches of 07 and 08 previous to this alleged velocity increase.

It should also be noted that, like many of the Phils pitchers last year, Madson experienced a career low HR/9 (from .8 in 07 to .65 in 08). Additionally, his K/9 went from 6.91 to 7.29 and his BB/9 from 3.7 to 2.5.

[baxter]

In his last outing of the season, Madson's velocity dipped back to his norm.

[adam eatin']

Boras realized that shy of an major injury to Lidge, there was no way that Madson was going to get the reps in at closer to sign a k-rod deal, assuming he ended up closing at an elite level. As far as I've seen in his career, he's a step-up guy who was dominate at the right time last year. This is a nice paycheck for a set-up guy, paid by the people that love him the most. Unless his player profile shifts dramatically, this IS his payout.

[CY]

JW - maybe I should have rephrased. Obviously all these things have been on your radar, but what signing has surprised you the most so far (if any)?

For me it is the Madson deal. I thought he would definately test free agency. Nice to see he is pretty much set for life now though. Hope he doesn't fade.

Ruben is doing a nice job of keeping us viable contenders for at least the next few years. At least he is taking care of our own guys.

[CY]

Save Burrell of course

[CJ]

Another thing that makes this deal great, IMO. If Madson continues to improve and demonstrate some dominance, he'll be a great candidate for an in-season trade in the next couple years.

I'm not saying I WANT to trade him. I'm saying that he has cost certainty for the next couple years and if someone views him as a potential closer, he'll be worth a lot more than he was this year.

[clout]

Brian G: My point about the double standard on Utley and Howard, possibly prompted by race, is amply displayed in your comment. Utley is perfect to you. No holes in his game. Guess he got jobbed on the Gold Glove all those years, huh?

As for the Burrell-Howard comparison, I made that point in my original post by saying that one possibility is that the high expectations are why there's a double standard about Howard by most Beerleaguer posters.

Look, everyone knows you routinely go off half cocked and are one of the least knowledgable posters here, but at least try to get your facts straight. Here's my original post:

"mikes77: Amazingly, I agree with you re: Howard. He gets little respect or support on this blog and I'm sure sure if it's because his MVP season raised expectations so high or if it's his race. I gotta admit I'm a bit queasy about that, as when Utley disappoints not a discouraging word is heard."

[clout]

Hope SE: "Did Boras blink? Of did Madson say 'That's not my way' or something to that effect? Or ....???"

How about this: The original rumor that he'd rejected it was wrong.

[MG]

Truth - You have to wait until the offseason is done so far including the rest of the arbitration hearings. So far, I would give Amaro a C+/B-. He maintained the status quo likely but overpaid to do. He has had a few nice secondary deals too but didn't improve one of his three stated areas so far either (defense, pitching, or a RH-bat).

[EJM]

I love this. I couldn't be more happy with the team over the past four days. Locking up Hamels, Madson and Dobbs tells me that the team is committed to its own players - the core of the team that helped it win a World Series. I'd rather see them commit to their own guys than sign a big bucks free agent that would only tie their hands financially. I want to see them continue to lock in guys like Victorino and Werth for three years and then plug holes where needed - Add a SP here or a RH bat there - I guess the dowsnside is that all of these guys will be free to walk at about the same time. However, it puts us in a good postion to grab another WS title within that window.

[Luckbox]

MG: Did Amaro talk about a RH bat or did Manuel? I don't remember Amaro stating his desire for a RH bat.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: Actually, I would say you have to wait until you see the regular season results before you can fairly grade Amaro. Will Ibanez be the upgrade the Phillies hope he is? Does Moyer have another decent year left in him? Can Paulino upgrade our catching situation by having another season like his rookie year? Was Park's 2008 a fluke or can he be an effective middle reliever for us? Can John Mayberry get a call-up & provide a decent right-handed bat off the bench?

None of these questions can be answered right now, but the answers will have a huge impact on what we think of Ruben Amaro's off-season.

[Jeltz For the Hall]

Carson: Good interview with Doug Glanville. Fascinating guy. But "Ivy Leaguerer"?

[mm]

Solid signing by the phils. He proved he can handle big game situations and seemed to really focus on his craft this year. He deserve this payday. Hopefully the money will allow him to continue to focus on improving.

Question: Do the phils see the potential for madson to improve even further and possibly replace lidge as closer in 2011 or 2012?

[mm]

EJM: "I guess the dowsnside is that all of these guys will be free to walk at about the same time. However, it puts us in a good postion to grab another WS title within that window."

And i think thats about the best you can hope for. I think that once these players are locked in, it allows the phils to focus more on the minor league development in 2010 and 2011 so the next core of young players is ready to replace some of this core that will undoutedbly be ready to move on. Truth be told, this organziation is somehow managing to become a legitimate franchise. Sure there will always be the cheesy give-aways and bush league PR, but at the end of the day, it seems like for the first time in decades that as an organization they have an actual plan besides how to turn a profit on gimmicks.

[doubleh]

Yet another story that the four letter network got wrong; it's not shocking anymore considering all they are about these days is locker room drama and stories about "athletes gone bad" or some other soap opera related crap.

[Brian G]

clout: I love how you can't handle anyone taking issue with one of your posts without claiming that "everyone knows" the person you're arguing with is an idiot. "Nothing to see here people, I just need to put the monkey who learned how to talk back in his cage."

That said, you have still said nothing to justify your injection of race into the discussion. And bringing up Utley's consistently improving to the point of elite defense is an odd way to prove your point about holes in his game.

[PhilsGal]

Jeltz - Glanville went to Penn. What of it?

[J. Weitzel]

With all the money and goodwill going around with the longer deals to Hamels, Madson and Dobbs - rewarding the champs for a job well done in some respects - it says an awful lot about how highly they regarded Pat Burrell.

[bay_area_phan]

PhilsGal: I think Jeltz's comment was directed at Carson's misprint: Leaguerer.

[PhilsGal]

BAP: Ah, I must've skimmed over the extra "er." Thanks for clarifying.

[RT]

Makes me wonder if Madson overruled Boras on this.

[EastFallowfield]

Yeah, Madson deal a little out of the blue, but was mentioned in one or both of the Philly papers today or yesterday as a possibility.

[CJ]

I hate saying this, but I think clout is right.

I have a feeling the "rumor" of Madson/Boras turning down this extension was wrong. It wouldn't be the first time a rumor turned out to be baseless.

[CY]

CJ-

Yeah, it makes sense. "Turned down" could just have been that he made a counter offer and they finally came together on terms.

[GM-Carson]

Thanks for catching my spelling mistake, I fixed it. Go figure it was on a question I was referring to "smarts".

[CJ]

I'm having fun reading Metsblog where the readers are up in arms that the Mets don't intend to raise payroll beyond last year's $143M.

[MG]

JW - It is really a surprise though about how they regarded Burrell given the infamous "40 good swings" comment Gillick made two years ago and their numerous attempts to trade him? If not for the no-trade clause that Burrell had, I bet he would have been out of a Phils' uniform well before last season.

[J. Weitzel]

Wasn't it the D-Backs GM who made the 40 good swings comment?

[CJ]

O's just extended Nick Markakis for six years, taking him through 3 years of free agency. It's a 6 year, $66M deal.

[NEPP]

Free Agency is now officially dead...the new trend is locking up core players before they hit the market. Next year's FA class will pretty much suck outside of a handful of guys.

Here's my theory of what happened with Madson.

1. Phillies offered 3 years, $12 million to Boras.

2. Boras rejects it outright without consulting Madson and then leaks the deal to the papers to show what his guy is "worth".

3. Madson reads about that rumor and is confused.

4. Madson calls his agent and asks "Did they really offer 3 years, $12 million?"

5. Boras tiptoes around and kinda admits that they "might" be willing to do that and promises that he will get back to him.

6. Boras calls up Amaro and asks if that deal is still an option.

7. Amaro says "yes, we'll go 3 years, 12 million, is Ryan interested?"

8. Boras says he might be and goes back to Madson...

9. Yes, they'll go for it, Ryan.

10. Ryan says, "Sweet!, where do I sign?"

The End.

[baxter]

I think some MLB scout made the "40 good swings" comment, but a lot of GMs(including Billy Beane I think) agreed with him.

[NEPP]

We have a pretty pricey bullpen now

Lidge - $12 million
Romero - $4 million
Madson - $4 million
Durbin - likely $1.8 million in arbitration (made $900 K this year)
Condrey - $650 K
Park - $2.5 million
Eyre - $2 million

Almost $27 million on the Pen...wow.

[squatter]

We put up with clout because he has the time tolook up stuff that a lot of the adults on the sight don't have time to do. His name-calling propensity is well-known as well. But the issue of race is an important, grown up issue, not to be commented on by the likes of clout. He simply doesn't have the maturity to comment intelligently on the subject. If you are intelligent enough to ignore Al Sharpton, you should be intelligent enough to ignore clout.

[NEPP]

clout's a kid? I always pictured him as an ornery 55 year old Phan that was poking at us with a stick.

Though I admit I do look forward to arguing stuff with him.

[MG]

I stand corrected. It was the anonymous MLB scout who made the comment about Burrell and the "40 good swings a year."

Thought it was odd at the time how you didn't hear a word out of the Phils' FO at the time either to defend Burrell in any capacity.

Either way, water under the bridge at this point.

[Tony]

NEPP

I think you hit the nail on the head with that order of events.

[clout]

squatter: I find it amusing that you, of all people, would comment on intelligence. Oh, and it's "site," not sight.

[Luckbox]

NEPP: That's interesting. I put our starting staff at about $40M. Of course, that includes Hamels, Myers, Moyer, Blanton, Happ, Kendrick and Eaton. Without Eaton and one of either Kendrick or Happ, our starters are about $31M, or not much more expensive then a pen that will pitch significantly fewer innings than our starters!

[CJ]

Grrr... that last one is me, CJ... not Luckbox.

[donc]

I always figure there are a number of posters here that are like 32 and live in their parents basement. They spend 90 percent of their time sitting around in their spiderman pajamas blogging and drinking chocolate milk. Clout isn't one of them. He knows stuff from the 70's and earlier that you can't look up. You could only know it by living through it. I can tell he goes back as far as I do if not further. I do have a vision of him chewing on a cigar stub when he reams someone though.

[NEPP]

We actually have quite the affordable starting staff. Very surprising actually.

I really wish the FO would bite the bullet and get a guy like Sheets. It'd only be a one year hit as Myers is walking next year anyway so that'd be $20 million off the books between him and Eaton being gone. 1 year isn't that bad. Another playoff run would more than pay for that investment.

It'd cost less than missing the playoffs would.

Disclaimer: I am NOT saying that signing Sheets is the difference between making the playoffs or not making them...just trying to justify why we should sign another pitcher as it increases our chances.

[Luckbox]

donc: Hey... I'm 32. And I like chocolate milk. I enjoyed the first two Spider-man movies. And I have black labs on my pajama pants.

I'm going to consider myself offended!!!!

[Sophist]

NEPP - Like the order of events. Tell the Yankees that free agency is over. I don't think they got the memo.

[CJ]

Okay... I've solved the CJ/Luckbox problem. Carry on.

[Anon]

Clout is the resident cut-and-paste stat man who enjoys arguing for the sake of arguing. I never thought of him as a child; more of a single man with no family whom co-workers see as a Foghorn Leghorn blowhard who thinks they know everything. Every place of business has a curmudgeon such as this. More often than not, I've found that the "know-it-all" attitude is a cover for a feeling of insecurity and general inadequacy. I find myself torn between pity and disgust with such people.

[donc]

Luckbox/CJ/ Jimmy Hoffa/whoever you are: If I wanted to offend I would have said Strawberry milk. That stuff sucks. :)

[NEPP]

****NEPP - Like the order of events. Tell the Yankees that free agency is over. I don't think they got the memo.****

Its certainly changed significantly. Teams are far more apt to lock up their young guys and let the Yankees overpay for the rest. The 2010 class is gonna be Matt Holliday and a bunch of 2nd tier guys...and I personally dont even think Holliday is a TOP player like an Arod or even a Teixeira.

John Lackey and Brett Myers are the best pitchers available...pretty thin FA class. Most guys have been locked up already.

[clout]

Anon: Nice to know I get under your skin. :-)

[CJ]

MLB Trade Rumors says:

"Chico Harlan of the Washington Post was told by an agent Monday that believes Adam Dunn 'will get a max of $5MM per year.'"

Wow. I guess Pat Burrell was right to sign when he did. And I guess Raul Ibanez better be REALLY good this year!!!

[Brian G]

CJ: That'd be pretty incredible if true. I don't understand how a 29 year old who has hit 40 home runs for 5 straight years could be devalued to that degree. It's looking like a one year deal might be his best bet at this point.

[clout]

CJ: That ignores a key fact in the remainder of that WaPo report: Dunn's asking price is four years and $56 million. There is no way he'd settle for $5M a year, although he ain't gettin the 4/56 either. My guess is he goes for $9-10M per. Remember, he's younger than Burrell, not to mention Ibanez could be his dad. Some team will pay him $9 or 10M per.

[The Truth Injection]

MG: I said at this point. I'm not offering a final grade on the off-season yet. I think the pitching staff is slightly upgraded over last year with Park in and Condrey maybe out. The pitching staff at worst is the same which is fine by me.

Keep in mind I placed high value on getting Madson and Hamels under deals. He did that and basically kept the pillars of our pitching staff around and at a decent price for the next 3 years. That is great in my book.

[clout]

If a 37-year-old good-hit, bad field, average power guy gets $10M per for 3 years (Ibanez) and a 32-year-old good OB, bad field, good power guy gets $8M per, the is ZERO chance that a 29-year-old good OB, bad field, great power guy goes for $5M.

[Alby]

Ah, the "40 good swings" comment -- the epitome of Burrell bashing. No matter who said it, plenty of people agree.

Given that he's generally good for around 60 extra-base hits per season, I always wondered how he got those other 20, not to mention the 70 or so singles, a few of which would be doubles if he could run faster than a 70-year-old.

See, I keep wondering why Burrell gets so much hate over his ugly outs, while Howard hacks away like an actor in a straight-to-DVD horror movie and gets plenty of love. Do 15 HR a year really make that big a difference?

[Alby]

Clout: Normally I'd agree, but we're not dealing with a normal off-season. We were wrong about arbitration being offered to Burrell; as it turned out, arbitration was offered to very few mid-level FAs. It's pretty clear that a game of chicken has developed, and -- given that I don't believe in coincidences until it's clear they truly are coincidences -- I wonder how it was that so many teams all decided, completely independently, that this was the year arbitration was being flushed down the john.

I know that nobody has these suspicions beyond me and a few agents, but nothing I have seen -- including the free spending by the Yankees -- has dissuaded me from thinking that the other 29 teams have some kind of fix in. Why else would the Mets, set to move into a lucrative new stadium, sit on their wallets as they have? In what way did low-balling Lowe make any sense for them?

Go ahead, mock me for my paranoia. But I can't help but get suspicious when owners suddenly display restraint and foresight, two qualities I haven't seen from those quarters since Lance Parrish was an All-Star.

[CJ]

clout: Is it possible GM's know (or believe) something about Dunn that we don't know? There's been talk of his attitude...

I think it's stupid. He'd improve pretty much every lineup in baseball.

[Andy]

Missed a lot today, evidently.

Another good signing by Junior. Yippee for a killer bullpen.

P.S. CJ - Really. "Luckbox?"

[Brian G]

Alby: You probably are being paranoid, but it's also possible that baseball FOs are as well. And I don't think coincidence is the right word, as the case can be made that there was obvious economic uncertainty that caused teams to go ultra conservative spending-wise. I think the better phrasing would be that it's "a little too convenient" that every team all at once was able to realize that the Adam Dunns and Pat Burrells of the world would be overpriced even on one year contracts.

And as for Burrell, the other 20 extra base hits come from when pitchers like Billy Wagner would accidentally throw it on his one path swing. Duh.

[mikes77phillies]

"40 good swings a year" The best discription of Burrell's game... ever.

"Do 15 HRs a year really make that big a difference?"

Naaa. A 15 HR per year difference doesn't mean anything. Very insignificant. Gimme the 30 walks per year instead.

[mikes77phillies]

Btw. Bobby Jenks settled before arbitration for 5.6 million, per mlbtr. They expect Papelbon to get even more. How is it that a closer can command 5.6 in his 1st year of arbitration? A great starter like C M Wang loses his case and gets only 4 million and Hamels has to settle for 4.35? That does'nt make a bit of sense.

[Anon]

15 HRs score more runs than 30 walks in almost every situation.

[hamels' left hand]

mike77:

closers are overvalued? duh.

[NEPP]

Yeah, I really "feel" for Hamels "settling" for 4.35 million. He signed a 3 year deal, he didn't settle for anything.

[CY]

anon - that had to be sarcasm from mike. or is your post sarcasm too and I am just missing it?

that is a nice deal Jenks got.

what is the highest deal that a starter with the same service time recieved?

[mikes77phillies]

I think Zambrano is the highest arbitration winner at 4 million and Wang is the highest loser, also at 4 million. Either way, a closer should'nt get more in arbitration than a great starter with the same service time.

[CY]

agreed. in the open market a top flight starter will make more than a top flight closer.

i wonder why it is different wit younger guys in arbitration.

Papelbon will probably get 7 million. he is a freak.

When Tim Lincecum hits arb shouldnt he make more than papelbon (in theory)?

[Goody]

donc: I'm 66 and love Kreiders strawberry-banana milk. (lancaster co. dairy) And its real milk, not that 2% crap.

[AWH]

Wow! Posters comparing Jenks to Wang, as though there is an objective comparison.
Lets start with this:

Different years.

Different teams.

Different agents.

Different team management.

Gosh, that's 4 different variables I came up with in about 15 seconds with about 5 whiskies on board.

Think, people. THINK.

[Alby]

The difference between 15 HR and 30 walks is 30 total bases, or 7 1/2 runs. That's 3/4 of a win. That hardly accounts for the difference in attitude towards Burrell displayed by Mikes and Brian G, which goes a fair bit beyond disdain. I contrast this with the hissy fit thrown when someone dares mention that Ryan Howard isn't the second coming of Willie Stargell.

I know some of you don't "believe in" sabermetrics, but really all you're showing is ignorance. You, Mikes, especially ought to show a bit more humility. If you don't understand the concepts, mocking them makes you look dumber, not smarter. I never said 30 walks were better than the 15 extra HR. That's obvious. What I asked was, does it really make that big a difference. Thanks for answering it for me: Yes, it does, particularly to those who don't understand the concepts pioneered by SABR 25 years ago.

[Alby]

"Either way, a closer should'nt get more in arbitration than a great starter with the same service time."

Arbitrators set their sights by the contracts given to other players in similar jobs with similar service time. If you think closers are overpriced, your argument is with baseball's GMs, not arbitrators or the arbitration process.

[CY]

That is why I was asking AWH. Who is a comparable SP to danks that signed a 1 year deal to avoid arbitration?

Is there one that made more than Danks?

Different teams AND different team management?? Surprised you didn't throw different color uniforms in there.

AWH - do you think the arbitration awards and 1 year deals signed to avoid arbitration reflect an open market situation? If not, why? Please enlighten