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Tuesday, February 17, 2009


Call me ignorant, but when was Derrick Turnbow a Phillie?

Call me ignorarnt, but when was Derrick Turnbow a Phillie?

Former first-rounder. Played in the system 1997-99.

I'd say they have a solid chance at making the World Series...considering the solid clubhouse leadership they have with So Taguchi.

We had some pretty bad 1st round picks in the 1990s...Derrick Turnbow, Adam Eaton...we also had some very good ones (Pat Burrell)

Joe Thurston has the distinct honor of playing left field in place of both Manny Ramirez and Pat Burrell.

Shame about Matt Kata and Chris Woodward; we could really use some more versatility on the bench.

Good article on Howard's fielding work with Perlozzo by Rosenthal. I apologize if this was posted earlier.

Typical "Hope Springs Eternal" ST article but its good to see he committed himself so much to improving his fielding.

LOL...good one Andy.

From the previous thread:
"It is pretty sophmoric to challenge me to "name them," as though my inability to foresee the future invalidates my basic point that Myer is highly paid and to date has been inconsistent."
Hitman, just got back from dinner and read the ridiclulous statement I quote above.

Now you are being downright dishonest.

Do you even care about your own credibility?

If you had made the basic point that "Myer is highly paid and to date has been inconsistent" then almost nobody, myself included, would have taken issue with you.

But that's not what you posted.

What you did write was:

"For what he will demand in 2010, they sure can get a far better starting pitcher than this guy."

You wrote it, no one else did.

That is what I and others are taking issue.

We are not challenging your opinion of Myers behavior, and not what you think of him personally. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

However, which is more "sophmoric" - asking another poster to back up an assertion with some facts, or engaging in diversionary tactics and deceit when your assertion is challenged?
Now, either 1)take responsibility for your assertion by backing up what you say with facts, 2) admit you shot from the hip and were incorrect, or 3) continue to obfuscate and engage it deceit thereby compromising your own credibility.
It's your choice.

MG - On the last thread you asked about the AAA bullpen. By coincidence, Phuture Phillies just ran its appraisal.

In re: the rotation if Myers walks and Jamie grows old, finally. The people to watch are whomever the young guns are that inhabit Reading in 2009. There are possibilities, but they all seem a couple years away. 2010 is only one year away, but desparate rotations (a la 2007) require desparate measures.

What a sad list of has-beens, never-weres and never-will-bes. Cardenas is the only one on the list who has a decent career ahead of him.

Andy: And Jesus Merchan. Unfortunately, that's the price you must pay for talent. And by talent, I mean Julio Mateo.

Latest on Mateo BTW:

Former major league reliever Julio Mateo was arrested on suspicion of forgery last weekend after police discovered counterfeit $100 bills in his hotel room. (Jan. 29)

Re: Rich Harden from last thread. He's got great stuff, but an MRI of his right shoulder looks exactly like a plate of linguini and clam sauce.

JW: They were sitting there when he checked in.

Which brings me to A-Rod's press conference today. Why is everyone giving him such a hard time? Haven't each of us when we were young taken twice-monthly injections of a substance that we didn't know what it was? Yet some of the writers say he's lying.

Yeah, clout. I think they were injection "the cream" and "the clear".

But, just like Barry Bonds, A-Fraud thought it was just linseed oil and Ben-Gay.

Turnbow wasn't a Phillie first rounder, although he was in the system.

Taking steroids is as physical and mental as drinking water is.

Andy - Thanks. It is very likely that one of these guys wins a job with the Phils with the Phils but I don't understand the "Condrey's post is potentially threatened" in the comments section for three reasons:

1. The Phils wouldn't have resigned Condrey to such a deal unless they are figuring he would be in their bullpen on opening day.

2. Cholly loves known quantities. He has seen Condrey a lot the past two years and knows he has - a guy who is largely cannon folder used in low leverage situations but is capable of pitching multiple innings with respectable control and an somewhat of an ability to keep the ball on the ground.

3. Phils are already going to have 1 opening in the pen and I highly doubt that Happ/Kendrick are moved back into the pen if they don't win the 5th starter spot. Both guys will likely start the season in the rotation at Allentown.

I do agree though with the sentiment here that there are likely a few guys here who could give the Phils some average relief in a spot. Largely an upgrade from the list of clunkers in the bullpen last year at Allentown.

Why is everyone talking about Moyer being gone in 2010 - he signed a 2 year contract - hopefully hes pitching well and will be here next year

Matt Kata... "Our scouts have had our eye on him for a while now..."

I love how A-Rod is throwing some nameless "cousin" of his under the bus, too. Think the press is going to try to hunt down this cousin in the Dominican? Not bloody likely. Way to hide your source, A-Rod.

I just wish he would have told the freakin truth already; now we have no choice but to think he's lying about everything else, including that he stopped using PED's.

clout: Maybe they were just "special vitamins," nod nod, wink wink. Didn't Nails tell that to the Philly press corps in the early `90s?

It is pretty funny though about Bonds and A-Rod "plausible denilability" largely consists of a pure ignorance (believable only if they were coked up, drunk, or high for long periods) and pure misunderstanding.

If anyone wants an indication of what the FA market has become, take note that today Eric Gagne signed a MINOR league deal with the Brewers.

Link here to an article in the Sporting News on the Phillies' chance to repeat.

man I hope no one sees Matt Smith and starts talking about the Bobby Abreu trade.

oh wait. oops.

Remember Chris Roberson your futures so bright you better wear SHADES!

I think the Brewers overpaid with that minor-league deal to Gagne.

I'm sure Arod's "cousin" will be/was well compensated for getting hit by that bus.

Imagine if we ended up with a Greg Golson, Chris Roberson, Michael Bourn outfield.

Like Wayne's World, that list made me laugh, cry, and vomit.

****Imagine if we ended up with a Greg Golson, Chris Roberson, Michael Bourn outfield.****

I can't imagine alot of flyballs would fall in with those 3 out there...on the flip side, I dont think it would matter as we'd never put up any runs.

It says a lot about our system when we produce three clones like them.

NEPP- You're right -that was a great article on Howard trying to improve his defense- I love spring - Great time to be optimistic.

Let's hope he plays D like he wants to.

I'll just take some fundamental thinking on Howards part. I feel like a bunch of his misques are usually when he gets stuck between throwing to a base or taking it to first himself.

I forget what game it was, but there was a man going on contact from 3rd, Howard feilds a chopper, stares at home for about 2 seconds, then tries to outrun the guy to first, then decides to look to someone to flip to, then just stops and gives up. Haha, i have a feeling it was 8th-9th inning too, but can't remember the game at all.

More on the last thread discussion of Myers role for the 2010 Phillies. I am suprised that no one suggested that the Phils (Junior) will make a deal with Seattle next year for one of their high priced starters (Bedard or Silva) to replace Myers.

Cole on cover of SI

Please, please, please no SI cover jinx injury...

Probably old news to avid BeerLeaguers, but I just discovered that the Zo Zone has been resurrected as a MLB Blog .

Myers for Silva? Seriously? One Eaton is bad enough.

(Bedard i'd take)

To be fair, Bourn's minor league numbers were far superior to Golson and Roberson. Bourn will never hit .300, but his OB skills and speed are enough to give him a career if he can hit .260, which I think he can.

Golson and Roberson will not be having careers at the major league level. Cups of coffee, yes, careers, no.

clout: Roberson's minor league numbers are skewed by the fact that he was a late bloomer. In his best minor league years, he was better than Bourn in every category except drawing walks. Granted, those best years occurred at an older age than Michael Bourn's best years but he was not so old that a decent major league looked impossible.

Michael Bourn could be the next Joey Gathright...if everything falls into place for him.

"Bedard or Silva"? that's kind of a ridiculously huge range in quality and talent. it's like saying the Phillies are looking to trade an infielder: either Utley or Bruntlett.

Bruntlett can play more positions than Utley...thus he is more valuable.

"[Roberson] was better than Bourn in every category except drawing walks."

Er . . . I meant walks and stolen bases.

For a fast guy, Roberson sucked at stealing bases.

just looking at singles, BB, IBBs - Bourne was on first 127 times. Doesnt account for Fielder choices, and also doesnt account for runners blocking him on 2nd.

He had 51 attempts, so thats a 40% clip of him going when on first. So if he had about 15 more singles and 15 more walks, thats another 12 atetmpts right there.

If he hit over .260 he'd probably be stealing a good 50+ bases per year. And if he hit .260, im sure he'd see more ABs than 460.

Gayest ... cover ... ever.

Hollywood living up to his name.

AWH- Putting quotation marks around a typographical error conveys a condescending, arrogant message of intellectual superiority. I would be happy to compare academic credentials. As for your general point,I don't accept as valid argument the obligation to name all the pitchers who will become available next year. As I stated in an earlier post, it is unknowable, except for free agents. But to suggest that better pitchers than Myers will not become available is nonsense, as Myers has proven himself over a seven year career to be no better than a .500 pitcher. There are numerous .500 pitchers out there and at better prices than Myers.

For those who believe wrongly that a pitcher's W-L record doesn't matter because he pitched well in the playoffs, or you can name some great pitchers who at some point had losing records, etc.,I voice disagreement. How he did in the playoffs requires me to accept that a sample size of 4 or 5 is a more reliable measure of his true level of ability than his career stats. Yes W-L records are mitigated by the teams pitchers play for, but that is not an issue in Myers case.

Myers is your classic jock headcase. He pitches lights out for a few games. Then he can't find the strike zone. Then he loses velocity off his fastball. Then he whines about this or that. Sounds like he and Terrell Owens make a fine set of bookends. As a result of his emotional paralysis, he has underperformed over a 7 year career and is, at bottom, a .500 pitcher. Unless he proves otherwise in 2009. Let's hope so.

Does anyone know if Donald being with the big club for two weeks at the beginning of the season is any different than say two weeks in June, arb. clock wise? Its my understanding that service time starts and stops when you come up/go down. I know it would use an option year, but he has 3 right?

****AWH- Putting quotation marks around a typographical error conveys a condescending, arrogant message of intellectual superiority. I would be happy to compare academic credentials.****

I love pissing contests on internet sites.

****Does anyone know if Donald being with the big club for two weeks at the beginning of the season is any different than say two weeks in June, arb. clock wise?****

No, it doesn't matter at all. Options go by years and service time is calculated the same no matter when it is.

Thanks NEPP. So basically they would just need to have Donald sent back down to AAA once in order to avoid losing a year of control on him (although if he is up with the Phils for most of the year he would be a super two a la Hamels and Howard and have an extra year of arb). Since you have to figure Donald will be called up at some point this season, if Feliz starts on the DL, it would be silly for them to base the decision on whether to have Donald start in the majors on anything other than baseball skills.

Interesting news from Jerry Crasnick: "There are indications that the Phillies might toss out an all-purpose offer to Will Ohman, Joe Beimel and Dennys Reyes and sign whichever reliever takes it first. A baseball source said it's unlikely the Phils will offer anything more than a one-year deal in the $750Kto $1MM range."

Hmm...can't argue with that. Go Rube the Negotiator!!!

NEPP: that's actually not true. if you refer to cot's transaction glossary, "Super 2" arbitration players (like Howard in his first arb hearing) are eligible if they have at least 2 years of service, plus at least 86 days, plus are in the top 17% of 2-year players in terms of service time.

They lose a year of control on him once they put him on the 25 man. He's never been on it yet so they haven't used any of his options...once he's brought up, the clock starts ticking towards Arbitration and the "option" is burned.

****NEPP: that's actually not true. if you refer to cot's transaction glossary, "Super 2" arbitration players (like Howard in his first arb hearing) are eligible if they have at least 2 years of service, plus at least 86 days, plus are in the top 17% of 2-year players in terms of service time.****

Yes, but if its only for 2 weeks, that 2 weeks counts the same no matter what. Now if they were to bring him up sometime in May for the rest of the season as a opposed to April 1 (see Evan Longoria last year), then yes that would be to avoid the possibility of him being a "super 2".

right, I actually misread your previous post. sorry!

I meant 'year of control' as year before free agency, not option year, but I appreciate the clarification. This website is great.

MLB free agency/arbitration/Rule 5/waivers system is perhaps the most confusing and complicated subject I've ever read into.

It is very confusing. But I finally know the difference between 'optioned to minor league camp' and 'assigned to minor league camp', and I now have higher self-esteem.

My bad, J. Donald is not yet on the 40 man roster, so he won't need to burn an option if he's sent down at the end of ST (40 man roster guys use an option year at that point). Hence, they will probably be less likely to put him on the MLB roster unless they think he'll get significant playing time this year.

But with a guy like Donald, will he really need 3 option years? Cole Hamels 3 remaining option years are a real feather in Amaro's cap, we should be needing those any day now...

Most likely not. But based on their history with keeping Utley and Howard in the minors, I wouldn't be stunned if they don't bring him up barring a substantial injury to Feliz, Utley, or Rollins.

Very true, I am just setting up my eventual outrage at Miguel Cairo ABs that could have been taken by Donald

Yo, new thread

Phils definitely want to delay Donald's arbitration clock by 1 year. I am with NEPP that I would be stunned with a call up prior to June.

Hitman, for the record, all I did was 'copy and paste' what you had written in your post.

If you feel somehow that was conveying some sort of supposed 'intellectual superiority" on my part, than you are, quite simply, incorrect.

Still, you choose to engage, once again, in diversionary tactics, as though any supposed intellectual superiority, or even academic credentials have anything to do with the question I posed to you.

Now, to your point about not accepting my query as a valid argument:

Since when is a question a "valid argument"?

You are choosing to overcomplicate this to no end.

1) You made a statement which I thought was dubious.
2) I asked you to back the statement up with some data.
3) You chose not to answer the question.
4) When I pressed the issue, you resorted to namecalling.

Nice, intellectually honest job by you!

I, OTOH, conceded Harden would be an upgrade, but wagered that he wouldn't qualify under the 'cost' portion of your statement.
But then, I guess you did answer it in a way, when you posted:

"Make a list of better pitchers than Myers who may be available next year? Who knows who may be available."
Posted by: Hitman | Tuesday, February 17, 2009 at 05:47 PM

and above

"As I stated in an earlier post, it is unknowable, except for free agents."

But, if your two assertions above are true - that is, that it is unknowable - then how could you with any intellectual honesty have made your original statement?

Which was:

"For what he will demand in 2010, they sure can get a far better starting pitcher than this guy."?
(BTW, regardless of any supposed academic credentials on your part, it seems that you've much to study about baseball.

Some of the other posters here challenged you reliance on W-L record as a way judge a pitcher.

I'll help you out a little, but suggest you 'bone up' those academic credentials of yours, particularly where baseball is concerned:

From Bill James 1988 Primer (21 years ago, BTW):

Primer #8. "Single-season won-lost records have almost no value as an indicator of a pitcher's contribution to a team.")

I hope Sal Fasano plays another 10 years in this league. He kinda sucked, but he was the man in his own way!

Check out this Phillies fan forum

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