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Tuesday, March 10, 2009


Any names floating around out there? I remember the Rosario thing being pretty common knowledge at the time.

JW: Excellent point. Often decisions aren't made until the final games, understandably so. Which makes declarations by MG and AWH in the previous thread laughable.

The urge to make bold declarations on March 9 that this guy has the made the roster or that guy is out of the rotation is certainly understandable, but those who do so look like fools.

Mike Koplove or Gary Majewski are already the Value Village Victors, because I could see one, or both of them helping. Majewski has looked sharp this spring (although I know it doesn't official matter until March 20th/Clout Day).

Carson: Chances of both Majewski and Koplove making the team: 0%

In the battle for 5th starter, everyone assumes that if Park wins it, KK or Happ or both will be sent down. Why? They weren't sent down last year when they got squeezed out of the rotation. Unless one of them is really pitching poorly (no command, mechanical problems etc.) and needs to go down to work on something, I think chances are good that all 3 break camp with the Phillies.

SP ---------------RP

I think it will take an extraordinary spring performance by Majewski or Koplove (or a really bad one by KK or Condrey) to alter that.

Wow, clout, you must have gotten up on the wrong side of bed today.

Please explain to me how expressing an "opinion" or saying one is going to "recklessly speculate" canstitutes a "decalration"?

As "clout Day" gets closer, you're up to your old tricks again.

Ahhhh, JW, excellent thread.

You're right, of course. We don't know who is going to fill out the bottom of the 'pen, and it's probably a little early to handicap it.

Romero, when he returns

The above list are the only "locks" for the 2009 bullpen. I left Clay Condrey off of the list, because I view him as having to compete for a spot every spring.

The "serious" candidates to grab the last three spots are probably

Condrey - proven he can pitch somewhere in the bigs
Majewski - if healthy, see Clay Condrey
Mosebach - Rule 5 guy gets a 'serious' look
Bisenius - only because it's close to 'fish or cut bait' time
Mike Koplove - hometown favorite with MLB experience
I'm not sure I'd pencil in any of the 5th starter hopefuls as bullpen candidates except Park. IMO, it's more than likely the others will get stashed in Allentown in the rotation.

But then again, this is baseball.......

speaking of 'laughable bold predictions on March 9th' - Happ and KK in the pen? That'll do a world of help in their development.


Carson: Chances of both Majewski and Koplove making the team: 0%

Posted by: clout | Tuesday, March 10, 2009 at 08:49 AM

The urge to make bold declarations on March 9 that this guy has the made the roster or that guy is out of the rotation is certainly understandable, but those who do so look like fools.

Posted by: clout | Tuesday, March 10, 2009 at 08:46 AM
It is amazing how a man's\woman's opinion can change in 3 minutes.

From last thread, I agree with Doc's logic in who makes the big club and who gets sent packing. I also agree with the Grand Poobah BL Wizardmeister Jason, that the bullpen 12th pitcher is not here, yet.

Also in a earlier thread, someone wrote that Lidge blew the 2005 NLCS. I seem to remember driving by Minute Maid Park with the lights on at night during a World Series Game in 2005. One does not make it to the WS if they "blew" the NLCS!

Also in the "Luck" thread, I enjoyed Doubleh injecting the topic of betting on ST games. Reminds me of a time I was sitting in a bar room years ago watching Monday Night Football and guys were betting on such things like "will they run or pass" on the next play. Gambling is an addiction.

AWH: "Amaro, Dubee and Manuel have already seen enough of KK's immaturity that they feel he needs half a season in AAA. Besides, according to all the reports he still needs to work on his command and changeup."

AWH: If you equate the chances of Koplove and Majewski making the team to KK's then you truly are out in leftfield. Saying that Koplove and Mazjewski won't both make the team isn't exactly a bold declaration. It's like saying Utley will start at 2B if he's healthy.

AWH that's hilarious. I wish I could filter Clout out of my life. I did that, but it meant not reading the comments for most of the summer, so I'm trying again this year.

As if it takes a genius to predict two non-roster righties won't make the team. (Even though Carson never said they both would.)

Nostradamus indeed...

Not that it means a hill of beans right now, but when I try to work through a 25-man roster right now I come down to 1 spot for Donald-Stairs-Bruntlett-LOOGY. I think Giles makes Bruntlett expendable, and so I'd lean towards the LOOGY or Stairs as a 3rd lefty off the bench

Tim: It's really pretty simple, even for you. You just skip past the posts signed "clout."

Oh, and tim, the word "both" was indeed used by Carson.

clout, you are simply disingenuous.

For everyone else, I'll post the complete sentence, the part you purposely omitted will be in parentheses:

"[ I recklessly speculate that] Amaro, Dubee and Manuel have already seen enough of KK's immaturity that they feel he needs half a season in AAA. Besides, according to all the reports he still needs to work on his command and changeup.

Posted by: AWH | Tuesday, March 10, 2009 at 12:37 AM
Yep, only on BL can said "reckless speculation" be mistaken for a "bold declaration". That is, when others PURPOSELY omit beginnings of sentences.

Carson, I, Tim, and (allow me to recklessly speculate) probably others, took this quote:

"see one, or both of them helping."

in context.

We understand that them "helping" does not mean they would both break camp with the big club. "helping" can mean pitching valuable innings sometime during the season.

Majewski and Koplove(not both) probably have as good of a chance of making the team as Kyle Kendrick. KK's unlikely to win the 5th starter job, and they'd probably rather have him starting every 5th day in AAA than moping around the bullpen waiting for a blowout.

I don't quite understand Leslie Gudel, who believes if KK doesn't make the team, his best option is to be traded. Kendrick will pitch for the Phils this season guarateed. If not as the fifth starter in April, later on when guys get hurt or are ineffective.

I could certainly see both Koplove and Majewski pitching for the Phillies at some point this season, which says very little.

I wouldn't be surprised if Majewski made the bullpen over Kendrick. I think they still believe Kendrick can get better by starting in AAA. I think it's certainly possible Happ becomes the 2nd lefty in the pen if he loses the starting job to Park.

Certainly, my hope is that Happ is the 5th starter and Park is in the bullpen, mostly because I think Happ is the better pitcher and has more value as a starter, and because Park is a known quantity in the bullpen (good) and in the rotation (bad). It seems to me a misallocation of resources to try them in the opposite order.

I guess I'm fine with trying Kendrick in the bullpen, but it's hard to be a situational righty who can't strike anyone out. But then everyone here knows how down I am on Kendrick.

It's hard to skip your posts becuase they pollute an entire article by Jason. See, take this article for example.

Anyway... "Mike Koplove or Gary Majewski are already the Value Village Victors, because I could see one, or both of them helping."

See that three letter word, "one"? It's singular and implies an either or scenario.

I will say nothing more about this topic. You are just a miserable human being, but I've known that for three or four years now.

I can't remember a Spring Training where we have fully capable veterans and solid prospects battling for final positions in the field, as well as on the mound. Far gone are the days where an Eddie Orepesa (sp?)and Alex Arias make the squad. You have to give the Phils credit, they have become the real "Gold Standard".

Anyone have an idea of what the plans will be for Mayberry and Donald? Is Donald the 3B of the future, and is Mayberry our 4th OF next year? Seems like they both need to play everyday so, I doubt both will make the team this year, maybe one of them. And here's a vote for Happ to be the 5th starter.

Clout, I don't think Tim had a problem with the "both" part. It was your equation of "helping" with "making the team". That's faulty logic. It's entirely possible they help this season without making the team out of spring training.

JW, I agree.

I don't see any of the 5th spot candidates getting traded. They're, IMO, too valuable stashed in Allentown.

I posted a link to an article about SP health a couple of threads back.

The Phillies were very fortunate not to have had a major injury in their rotation last season (despite the meltdowns).

If I may "recklessly speculate", I think Jr., Chollie and Dubee realize they may need more than one of them to come up and take a spot in the rotation at some point.

Does it make sense to put any of them (save Park) in the 'pen at the Zen when they could be getting regular turns in Allentown and stay ready to be called up if and when needed?

If they are put in the 'pen at the Zen, would they be any more effective than the experienced relievers that are in camp?

If not, then why put them through having to stretch their arms out all over again if they're called upon to start?

The team obviously recognizes the need for [experienced] SP depth, as evidenced by the recent signing of Rodrigo Lopez.

I don't know the answer of who will or will not make the trip North, but I will make no "bold declaration" that certain pitchers will or won't.

I also heard Gudel's comments and had the same reaction as you.
A young SP with upside and a track record is too valuable of a commodity to give up on/trade.
Gudel made a comparison to Gavin Floyd, but the Phils have not reached that point yet with KK.

J - Yeah, as everyone has said, there's no reason for the Phillies to rush and trade the losers in the fifth starter competition. That's just a silly assumption for someone to make, especially before Clout Day.

I always wondered why KK wouldn't come up in trade talk. He's got a mlb wins, a sinker and isn't even in arb yet.

There has got to be value in there somewhere.

The Mets released Duaner Sanchez.

Bonehead & JW: I heard the same report from Leslie and my question was why would she throw that out there? Is she hearing something behind the scenes from the Phils' camp or was this just something she personally feels?

I watch a LOT of Comcast sports coverage and it just seemed odd coming from her.

Oh, and I concur that it would be foolish to trade him right now. Some people might be reactionary and say "trade him now" just because he seems to have fallen off in his development, but this is a guy who did a lot for this team over the past 1-1/2 seasons. You have to get him right again.

Bonehead, good post. At this point in his Phillies' career, KK has been more successful than Gavin Floyd was in his Phillies career.

Gudel made a bad comparison.

Holy hell, I get back and see my comment stirred up all this bullcrap. I didn't say both will make the team, because I don't think both will, and possibly neither of them. However, I do feel one, or both of them could help at some point during the season. Clout is notorious for twisting people's words and makin it seem like they said something they didn't. This is the 3rd in the past couple months and it's pissing me off. Thanks to all of you that actually read a comment and understand what it says instead of distorting far from its original intent.

With the dearth in starting pitching in MLB right now as evidenced by the Orioles, Mets' battle for #5, Milwaukee, Dodgers, and others, the Phillies would be remiss to trade any of their "surplus" starters unless they got a really good return.

Park, Happ and Kendrick are all good bets to take a turn or two with the big club in 2009, and Carrasco, assuming he's assigned, may be slated for later in the season after he's seasoned.

That said, then why trade any of them and give up extremely valuable depth?

If they are considering trading them, why not do it later in the season when another team may be more desperate?

I think KK has been getting more than his fare share of opportunity to succeed with the Phillies. A lot of guys get called up once to fill in for an injured player, play well, then get sent down once the regular returns, never to be heard from again. If KK fails this time, I think that's the last we'll ever see him in a Phillies uniform. The Phillies train leaves on time. If you don't have a ticket, it leaves without you.

Bonehead: Gavin Floyd always had much better stuff than Kyle Kendrick. Despite Kendrick's previous success, teams will always take more of a gamble on the more talented player; thus why Floyd had much more trade value.

Tim: Kendrick doesn't come up much in trade talk, because other teams' scouts probably see what the stats say: He's not a very good pitcher.

There's no better example of a change of scenery player than Floyd. The only similarity between the two is that confidence now appears to be an issue with Kendrick. I don't know if that's the case. I do know that Kendrick has accomplished far more with the Phils than Floyd ever did, and that the two do not have the same traits on the mound whatsoever except being tentative.

It would seem to me that the ideal scenario has started to play itself out. I say started to because as has been pointed out here a dozen times is that it is still early. Happ becomes the fifth starter, Park goes to the bullpen and Kendrick heads to LV where he can work on a change up. If Happ falters Kendrick will have hopefully had enough time to have righted the ship. If not, Park is the emergency #5. We know how he has fared in recent years as a starter so he's gotta be the last option. The only doomsday scenarion I can see is if Happ implodes immediately. Or if someone else has a problem or injury. That wouldn't give KK enough time to get his act together. The wild card is Carasco. He will also be down on the farm. With any luck he begins to come into his own too and is added to the equation. It's almost a certainty that you will need at least one more starter at some point. We just have to hope it isn't too soon.

If I may make a prediction without starting a 32 post argument, I believe that Kendrick will begin the season with the Iron Pigs and will be shopped around at the trade deadline to teams plagued by injury to their starting rotation.

I believe that Park will win the 5th spot in the rotation as he was the most deserving candidate all along by virtue of his performance last year and the fact that he has pitched more major league innings than Happ and Kendrick combined.

I believe that Happ should begin the season as a starter with the Iron Pigs instead of in the bullpen with the Phillies, but I fear that they'll stick him in the pen anyway.

Finally, I don't know what anyone has to prove by manipulating the words of others in order to give the illusion of their own intelligence. I would appreciate it if a certain veteran Beer Leaguer could do us the courtesy of leaving his or her inferiority complex and home and behave like an adult, not a teenager in a Japanime chatroom.

If Park wins the 5th starter's job, there is certainly a chance that Happ could make the team as a reliever. But the only plausible scenario in which KK, Happ & Park all make the opening day roster would be if KK wins the 5th starter's job --which is unlikely.

Jack -

From the last thread.......

Jack: Appreciate your posts from Florida, I'm sure it's a good time down there. That said, you seem a little bit off on some things.

Doc: "We'll see," said the Zen Master.

Jack: First, "Marson had a good day", but then you go on to say he can't hit very well, only hitting ground balls, and that his arm isn't all that strong. So what exactly is he good at then?

Doc: He had a good day for Marson. As I have previosuly stated, I think that Marson could be the Phils' future catcher. However, he's not ready yet. Pushing him too far and too fast would probably be a big mistake. He has a good glove but I still haven't seen anything impressive with his arm. He makes contact with the bat but not good contact. That having been said, injuries to Ruiz and Coste could still put Marson on the opening day major league roster.

Jack: Secondly, "If the season were to start right now, there's little doubt Donald would start at third." Um, I think there's plenty of doubt on that. I am about 95% confident that Charlie would go with the devil he knows in a Dobbs/Bruntlett platoon, rather than a guy in Donald who's never been above Double-A and played basically no professional ball at 3rd base before. In fact, make that 98% confident.

Doc: I am a big fan of Greg Dobbs and I always hoped that he could be an everyday player for the Phils. The fact of the matter is that Dobbs still has a tough time hitting left handers. That leaves 3B open for a platoon of Dobbs and whoever. If Feliz is not ready by opening day, that whoever will be Jason Donald. If you saw Bruntlet play yesterday, you'd better appreciate that he may be playing himself out of a roster spot this spring. Without going into a lot of details, he didn't do anything memorable offensively or defensively, whereas Donald played a strong 3B defensively and had 3 solid hits. If the Phils thought Bruntlet could adequately fill in for Utley and or Feliz, I doubt if they would have agreed to take a look Cairo, Ozuna or Giles, who didn't even play last year. The Phils' ulterior motive is unquestionably showcasing these guys for future trades if they aren't needed to open the season for the Phils. The Phils knew that Jason Donald impressed everyone in the Arizona Fall League but they didn't know if his performance would carry over to this spring training. Jack, it has. I was skeptical about Donald's chances before I saw him play this week, but the kid is improving every day and gaining confidence. If the Phils open the season with a platoon of Dobbs and Donald at 3B, I'll feel pretty good about things - certainly a lot better than I'll feel with the current version of Eric Bruntlet playing regularly.

Jack: Finally, "If Werth or Jenkins were traded..." I don't even care what was said next. The Phillies just signed Werth to a 2-year, 10 million deal, and he's coming off a great season and is their only legit RH bat. If the Phillies traded him, that would be close to a fireable offense for Amaro, Would never happen.

Doc: Never say never, Jack. If you saw Werth play yesterday, you'd say that he has a long way to go to return to his 2008 form. I am also a Jason Werth fan but he does have a history of injuries and his name pops up repeatedly in trade rumors. From the same source that predicted at this time last year that Joe Blanton would be a Phil by mid-season comes a new prediction that Ray Halladay will be pitching for the Phils this year. Werth and Kendrick are 2 names that have been included in the Phils part of the trade. One thing that has made such a trade possible is the emergence of John Mayberry as an everyday outfielder.

Jack: Again, I appreciate your reports, I just find they need to be taken with a grain of salt, considering these sorts of things.

Doc: We are finally in agreement. I do take what I write with a grain of salt. In fact, as I sit at my laptop computer writing this reply to you, I can smell salt in the air and see salt glistening on Clearwater Beach and in the gulf waters. I invite you to come down to spring traing some time, see these guys for yourself and draw your own conclusions. I am just sharing my observations with other Phillie fans and remind everyone that you are at no obligation to agree with my observations.

Stay well.

There's still a market for Kendrick. Just like teams who sign T.O., every teams pitching coach thinks they can "straighten the guy out".

Someone actually traded for Adam Eaton once upon a time remember...and there's a guy who seemingly had good "stuff" but absolutely nothing between the ears to channel it.

Kendrick = TO? Wow. That's a bad comparison HH. But I know what you mean. Struggling players are acquired all the time. Sometimes a change of scenery and coaching can work. Who knows John Mayberry could be an example of that. Little early to tell though.

donc: I didn't mean mentally crazy like T.O. I just mean everyone thinks they are a wizard as a coach.

Bad comparison, but you get my main gyst.

Doc: Nice post. You hitting up Shephard's in Clearwater? Nice little club down there if you're into the nightlife.

Fair enough on some of your points. I don't disagree that Donald is probably a better option than Bruntlett- I just don't think the Phillies will go with the unknown.

Would certainly be fine with Roy Halladay pitching for the Phils... although I'm skeptical of the idea of John Mayberry as an everyday player. I think he'd be exposed in that role.

"Chances of both Majewski and Koplove making the team: 0%."

That actually sounds like the kind of hyperbole that I would write in the moments after reading a boxscore of a ST game in which Majewski & Koplove each allowed 6 runs in 1 inning of work.

In fact, the odds of both Majewski & Koplove making the opening day roster are far from 0%. There are 2 vacancies in our bullpen. One of those vacancies is for Park if he doesn't win the 5th starter's job. But if Park does win the starting job, there's a good chance that Happ will be sent to AAA. That leaves 2 vacancies. Koplove and Majewski would appear to be the clear front-runners -- and their early spring training performances have only confirmed that.

The other scenario in which both guys could make the team would be if someone gets injured between now and opening day. I'd put the odds on both guys making the opening day roster at about 30%. And now that clout has boldly stated that it has 0% chance of happening, 'm sure there are quite a few Beerleaguers out there who are rooting for it to happen.

In re: Fifth Starters
1) Happ has not done well as a reliever. Everyone penciling him in as some kind of situational lefty needs to remember his splits between SP and RP. Far better to acquire some like the (now not coming here) Ohman or the (not very good at all with inherited runners) Beimel.

2) On the one hand Kendrick has not shown great improvement; on the other, if he's working on a change, he's not going to show that improvement right away. The prudent may wait a couple weeks before any definitive bold predictions.

3) Kendrick does not have any lights out pitch like Gavin Floyd's killer curve, right? I'm not sure how you can compare them. And "teams will always take more of a gamble on the more talented player."

4) The main reason we have not heard/seen rumors than anyone is breaking down the doors for Kendrick may be that many teams have someone high in their system who projects better, and other have someone who looks to have about the same ability. Moreover, Kendrick is worth more to the Phillies as a fallback option than to anyone else as anything else - forget "fair" value, no one will ever give us acceptable value back.

5)It would be beyond nice to have Koplove and Majewski available at AAA for the inevitible injuries - it would be helpful.

6) It would also be helpful to have one more real situational lefty. Given the Phils history, that commodity must be amazingly difficult to acquire. It's not like you can pick up the phone and hire, say, Ohman or Beimel. I guess we wait for that value village lefty that no one sees coming. (Call him "Zagurski II.")

7) I wonder how Lahey's doing. Is he still pitching or has he reverted to catching? (Guess I'll go find out now.)

Typo -

Roy, not Ray, Halladay.

Stay well.

"Someone actually traded for Adam Eaton once upon a time remember"

Not only that: they gave up Chris Young & Adrian Gonzalez to get him. That's gotta be one of the more one-sided trades in recent baseball history.

Re: Mayberry

Golson is hitting pretty hard this spring too. Who knows what either of these clowns will do.

Clout needs to drink some more coffee and relax.

Maybe the last BP isn't in camp yet especially if the Phils go with 12 pitchers and put Park in the 5th spot. In that case, it is likely that a Happ or Kendrick may open the season in the pen along with one of the veterans that the Phils picked up this offseason.

Frankly the Phils actually face more choices with their surplus of positional players especially if Feliz/Utley are healthy to start the season.

That would

khaio -
I was actually thinking we should begin a daily comparison of the two: just run their OPS with BB and K numbers. It would make it easier to understand the early success and easier to digest if (when?) reality sets in.

Jack -

I hit Shepherd's every year when I come down here for spring training. They have great seafood buffet. However, I discovered a new place last night in Indian Rocks, just south of Clearwater. It's called Keegan's Seafood Grille. I saw it on Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives a few months ago. They have great seafood at very reasonable prices. I had fried shrimp, scallops and oysters last night as well as the best She Crab soup I've ever had - even better than Captain George's in Virginai Beach. Washed it all down with a few pitchers of Shocktop, a belgian White Ale. I plan to go back later in the week for their 1/2 pound lobster tail. I've been coming to spring training in Clearwater for quite a few years - even before Bright House, and the food has always been very good and very reasonably priced. My current faves down here are Keegan's, Shepherds, Cody's Roadhouse, Sam Seltzer's and Quaker Steak and Lube. Nice talking with you. Stay well, Pal.

As of the last post

Mayberry .859 OPS, 2 HR, 1 SB, 2 BB, 9 K
Golson 1.221 OPS, 1 HR, 0 SB, 1 BB, 4 K

Golson's on fire!

Good thing it's only March 10th.

To all going to/in Clearwater: Check out the Island Way Grille for Sunday brunch. It's all you can eat and the absolute best meal I had while vacationing there.

Wow. When I posted about a change of scenery working for Mayberry I didn't bother checking on Golson. I am not too worried about him becoming a regret for the Phillies though. I'm sure both Texas Ranger fans feel the same way about John Mayberry at this point. Change of scenery can definitely help though. Hell, I remember it working for Greg Luzinski almost 30 years ago. It was clear that he wasn't finished. He still had some good years ahead of him but he had reached the end of the road here. The fans were all over him. He needed a change of scenery and he had a number of good years with the White Sox. Of course, he also was able to move to DH which helped, but I think a new start had a lot to do with his resurgence.

Andy - Jesus. If we're talking about Mayberry so much, think about what Rangers fans must be saying about Golson, if they existed!

Both Golson and Mayberry will be coming back to earth as pitchers begin using their off-speed stuff more often. These guys are prime examples of why we have "Clout Day."

Also... regarding KK... we'd be crazy to trade him unless we get a steller offer. You really can't have too much major league ready starting pitcher depth.

I see Happ and KK flip-flopping in the 5th starter spot throughout the season, with a freshly fueled up express bus between LV and Philly waiting at the helm.

Park as the bullpen option taking Durbin's role from last year, with Durbin getting a bit more of a break this year and thrust into some more short order, high pressure situations. Park will inevitable get a few spot starts, like Durbin did, as well. Just my two cents. Clocks are well started with both Happ and KK and both will have significant ups and downs through a very long season.

Too bad Golson can't pitch. Rangers likely will put up a ton of runs again this year and likely even give up more.

Normally I wouldn't think Kendrick would get anything of value in return but looking over some team box scores this year there are a few teams where he would have a pretty decent shot of making the Opening Day roster.

Pirates, Padres, and Orioles come to mind.

If Mayberry merely ends up as a 4th OF for a few years and some decent bench numbers and Golson turns into a star - i still think the Phils were right to trade him. His time ran out here in Philly, it was clear that he wasn't going to be productive for them. It will sting if he does outshine Mayberry, but I'm sure the Rangers would say the same thing if the opposite happens.

Alright, say KK has value to some of the lesser teams and we try to trade him, what are we going to get? Those teams arent in the business of giving up prospects, so what do they phils target? Bench players? Relivers? Is that really more important than rotation depth?

The only way KK will have value is if he was packaged with others to help sweeten the pot so to say. I cant see him alone netting the Phils anything of relevance.

I don't have a lot of faith in KK but agree with most on here that you can't give up on him yet and you most certainly can't give him away. If somebody like the trio that MG mentions wants to make you a nice offer, you've got to listen. But it should be a darn good prospect.

WP: Durbin did not get any spot starts last year. He pitched in 71 games, all in relief.

Ah, my mistake. I know he was mentioned as a possibility for a spot start or two, but I guess they turned to AAA then.

Still, nice to have Park as an emergency starter option, with long relief as his primary role. I like him a lot better there than having to trot him out every 5th day.

Carson: Don't get your panties in a bunch. Site's been dull lately, posts are down and I was just trying to stir things up.

phaithful - That is the crux of the manner. Kendrick has some trade value but would it be enough to really fill a need on the Phils' team right now? Probably not. Plus, you can't ever have enough pitching depth. Phils will likely need at least 8-9 starters this year and that means Kendrick will almost inevitably get at least a spot start or two.

Clout- panties are officially unbunched now, thanks for granting me permission.

I understand attacking someone when they say something stupid (I'll do that from time to time), but don't misquote people or pick and choose certain words from a block quote to change it into something to fit your method of madness.

"...should be a darn good prospect..."

That's the rub. If they have a prospect who's a pitcher they don't need Kendrick. So whatever anyone offer to the Phils for Kendrick, will not likely provide rotation insurance - which he will.

If they have a prospect who's a position player, they'll most likely still want more than Kendrick for him since a pitcher is seldom of equal value than a position player. In other words, any position player we get for Kendrick, straight up, will not be as good a player as Kendrick.

Since Kendrick, even without a working change-up, provides necessary insurance in the system, he is worth far more to the Phillies than he is to any trading partner.

It will be interesting to see how the three horsemen of the apocalypse fare as the witching hour of 3-20-09 approaches.

Kendrick is far more likely to start the year at AAA than to get traded -- for reasons already stated by others. If he is eventually traded, it would almost certainly be a Golson-Mayberry kind of trade in which the Phillies get back a similar type of prospect. In this case, that means someone with a chance at being useful, but with limited upside.

Andy: Agreed. If the Phils move Kendrick I would think the biggest thing that it would signify is that they've kind of given up on him. In which case the only decent prospect they could expect to get would be a long shot that is 3 or 4 years away. Which is I suppose an oxymoron.

"It will be interesting to see how the three horsemen of the apocalypse fare as the witching hour of 3-20-09 approaches.

Posted by: Andy "

Andy, keep in mind that 3/20/09 is an arbitrary day chosen by BL'rs.

It will still be 2 weeks before opening day, and I sincerely doubt the Phillies will make any decisions based on our time schedule.

I'll go as far as to say we won't know what the final roster looks like until the day they break camp.

I'll predict this:

Because of the WBC 2009 c***t Day is a week too early.

I didn't read through all of the comments, so apologies if this was mentioned.

Lahey did wear pinstripes in a few (at least one) games as I recall watching him in maybe the on-deck series. Reason I know is that he is best friends with a buddy of mine from college up in Boston. I was really hoping he'd turn into a regular and maybe get to hang with a real live Phillies player and maybe even some free tix. Alas, he didn't stick.

AWH: I'm fairly certain Ruben Amaro and Charlie Manual are fully behind the importance of "Clout Day."

{Mackanin enters dugout, spits, removes dirt from cleats, etc. Thompson, Dubee and Lopes confer on other end. Dubee looks up.}

Dubee - Hey, New Guy.

Mackanin - {looks around} You mean me?

Lopes - Of course we mean you. How many other New Guys are here?

Mackanin - Um...whattya want?

Thompson - We got something real important you need to do.

Mackanin - Important? Is this a bench matter?

Lopes - It don't matter if it's a bench matter; it's just important.

Dubee - You got to order the cake.

Mackanin - The cake?

Thompson - Chollie is pretty particular about his cake.

Mackanin - What cake?

Thompson - We always have cake on Clout Day.

Lopes - An' don't tell me you never heard of "Clout Day."

Dubee - 'Cause everyone knows about "Clout Day."

Mackanin - Sure I hearda "Clout Day." But I'm the bench coach. Orderin' the cake is Perlozzo's job.

Other three - Oh. Right. We forgot, man. Sorry.

Question: Why would the Phillies want to trade Kyle Kendrick when his value is pretty near its nadir? It makes no sense. Send the guy down to the Lehigh Valley to learn how to throw a change up and hopefully build up both his confidence and his worth.

JA Happ should be sent down to the Lehigh Valley too, should he not win the 5th starter job. His value is as a starter, not as a LOOGY.

@clout -- "Carson: Don't get your panties in a bunch. Site's been dull lately, posts are down and I was just trying to stir things up."

These are the kind of posts that could stir up the old clout is JW's alter ego. :)

Yo, new thread.

I haven't read all 70 some posts, but I have to comment on the article in the last paragraph. The writer uses the expression "have a beat on." It sounds a little lurid, but he gets it all wrong. It should be "draw a bead on." It's a hunting term and has to do with aiming at a target.

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EST. 2005

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