Phillies hope Moyer hasn't reached end of the line

At 46, Philadelphia will likely be the last stop Jamie Moyer will ever pitch at a high level. Seven games into the season, and with another year left on his contract, the Phils pray those days aren't already behind him.

The Phillies know there may come a day when they'll need to have a tough conversation with Moyer, but until then, they made their bed and must lay in it. That means living with a pitcher who's been giving them no real shot to win. After seven turns, he's pitching to a 8.15 ERA, an average of 7.4 hits, 4.6 runs and 5 innings per outing. His last three games may be the worst three-game stretch of his career. Last night, he lived in the middle of the plate. Solid for the first three innings, he missed badly in the 4th and 5th. In his defense, the pitch to James Loney wasn't terrible, but it was middle-in and Loney was prepared for it, pulling his hands back and depositing it into the shallow right-field seats for a three-run homer. Afterward, Charlie Manuel had this to say: "He isn't right. His control comes and goes. He has a hard time getting a feel for where he wants the ball to go."

Moyer, who's entered uncharted territory for a non-knuckleballer, relies on hitters to get themselves out. But what if the National League, in its fourth season of seeing this older Moyer, is through getting itself out? And what if age is creating the physical rust that's causing his command to slip? These are legitimate concerns the Phils don't seem publicly prepared to face. In the meantime, they wait for their 46-year-old southpaw to do what no others have done at his age: bounce back.

Comments

[smetrick]

I hated that 2 year 13 million contract the minute we signed it. It seems like he's done. I'd rather take my chances with a rookie at this point.

[Tony D]

I'd give him 2 or 3 more starts to turn himself around. This is getting ridiculous.

[J A Happy]

Maybe the brass should have a sit down with him,and both sides agree after he noth's win #250 he calls it a career

[TNA]

moyer has earned the right to call it quits on his own terms. he knows as well as anybody what the problems are and whether he's hurting the team in his current role more than he's helping it. at this point, it's up to him whether he should resign from his post, temporarily or not.

he's stated that pitchers have to be able to adapt to new things every time out; they're not going to feel the same day after day; each batter and umpire present different challenges; each set of weather conditions requires different pitching approaches.

There are obviously some things pitchers can't control. But they do need to be able to minimize the variability in things they CAN control. Things like arm angle. Things like mental focus. Things like their physical condition and will to deliver pitch-to-pitch. I wonder if Moyer is losing his grip on these endogenous processes. He did say that he wasn't sure how he (or the other players on the team) would respond mentally from winning the WS last year. That statement in and of itself is telling of his own uncertainty; it's been well documented here and elsewhere how different Phillies responded during the off-season. It drove Howard to greater heights while it lessened the drive to win in others like Hamels and Rollins. It would seem that Moyer, despite being the consummate professional that he is, lost a bit of that edge that drives consistency and high performance from pitch to pitch.

Bottom line: I don't think this is necessarily a mechanical issue nor a confidence issue. I think this is more of a loss of adrenaline due to an understandable loss of motivation.

[GBrettfan]

It's impossible to tell whether it's due to age, but I have to admit, it isn't looking good at this point. I think most of us were hoping/expecting for only a 1-yr. contract. I gotta believe that Jamie himself won't let an entire season go by pitching this badly; either he'll turn himself around (please, sooner rather than later) or he'll hang up his cleats. He has too much respect for the game; his pride in himself and dedication to the team will hopefully make the right decision clear to him. I do hope he manages to solve his problem with locating, however; hate to see him go out with a stink. (Or worse, linger in spite of it, which is a fear although I really think he'll be smart.)

[JB]

There is an oportunity, with a day off on May 18th, to skip Moyer's next scheduled start on the 19th.

If I was Charlie, I would try to be creative with my rotation to hold Moyer off until the first game against the Marlins, and then his next start would be against the Padres. He always has success against the Fish and the Padres can't hit. Maybe this strategy would help to restore some confidence in the old timer.

Also, the last thing I want to see is Moyer go against the Yankees. Can you imagine?

[TNA]

i don't know if this was mentioned before, but Charlie confirmed that Happ was pitching the second game of the doubleheader coming up.

[TNA]

JB - i don't agree with that strategy if it tinkers with the routine of the other starters. if anything, these guys, including Moyer, need to get in a good groove whether it's against the Mets, FLA, SD or the NYY.

Besides, the last time a matchup between Moyer and the Marlins was hyped up because of Moyer's record vs them, he got shellacked.

[JB]

I was a little off - Moyer would go against the Nats. How about this? Assuming that Happ has a nice start against the Nats this weekend. Reward him with a start against the Yanks.

cin 19-May hamels
cin 20-May blanton
cin 21-May myers
nyy 22-May park
nyy 23-May happ
nyy 24-May hamels
fla 25-May moyer
fla 26-May blanton
fla 27-May myers
off 28-May off
wsh 29-May hamels
wsh 30-May moyer
wsh 31-May blanton
sd 1-Jun myers
sd 2-Jun park
sd 3-Jun hamels

[JB]

The only starters that would impact are Blanton and Myers who would go from 4 days to 5 days of rest, but that would happen anyway with a day off. I see no downside to skipping his next start.

[curt]

Whether it's this year or next, the Geezer will absolutely dominate the Old Timers Games.

[Andy]

1) Nice balanced lead, Jason. Except aren't you being short-sighted and impatient? Baseball has 162 game seasons after all. (Okay; the last two sentences are really not meant for you; I agree with what you said.)

2) If there's anyone other than the Fish (and maybe Pads) that I don't mind sending Moyer out there against it might be the Yanks. They have not seen him in years. And it occurs to me that when they did they didn't exactly rake him. (I'll check on that and get back.)

3) Very good news that Kendrick won't be depleting our bullpen against WSN.

4) TNA - "endogenous" Very nice. I feel even smarter today.

5) It's only been seven starts? Watching those interminable innings when it's either a foot out of the strike zone or on its way sharply to the outfield, it seems like 25 games.

[Phils Suck]

Moyer's contract will be worse than Oliver Perez's when all is said and done, mark it down. Especially because your second-rate city and franchise is deeply impacted by a failed 13 mil deal.

Moyer sucks, has always sucked and will always suck. The only reason he was successful last year is because he faced the Marlins at least five times. They can't hit soft-tossers for anything.

We're taking our division back. You know, the one we've been on top of more over the last three years than ANY TEAM IN THE MAJORS IN THEIR RESPECTIVE DIVISION. Yea, that one. The NL East. It's ours, and we're taking it back.

[J A Happy]

He may have earned the right to do alot of things,and i respect that,but calling it quits on his own terms,that is not the real world of MLB.most of these guys who have long careers have to be coaxed a little bit,look how sad SUPER STEVES career ended

[Andy]

On the Moyer vs. Yanks thing...um, wrong, Andy.

They pwn him. Jeter, A-Rod and Godzilla especially. It would be ugly.

[flasportsfan]

The Mets are slumping right now, losing 2 of3 to the awful Braves. They need a nice three game set with the Phillies to get them back going again.

[Bubba]

Have to agree with Zolecki's perspective:

"Moyer has had rough stretches like this with the Phillies, which probably is why he thinks he will get through this one. He went 1-2 with a 9.60 ERA (16 earned runs in 15 innings) from Aug. 12 - Aug. 24, 2007. He also went 0-3 with a 10.06 ERA (19 earned runs in 17 innings) from July 2 - July 16, 2007."

[curt]

KK's already had his 15 minutes....everywhere but BLer, where he'll always be a star.

[clout]

Andy: " Baseball has 162 game seasons after all."

There is a learning curve!

[jon]

@Phils suck

WFC you fucking idiot.

[J. Weitzel]

He was terrific in 2008 but he’s been a horror show this season. I should ignore this? I'm not permitted to wonder whether age has caught up with him? Come on. At what point is this permissible? 47? 48?

[J. Weitzel]

Let's not draw lines in the sand over this, either. All that Zolecki quote tells me is Moyer thinks he'll come out of it. All my post says is that at age 46, I wonder.

[Mac Tonight]

When you're dealing with a 46 year old pitcher that does not throw a knuckleball and suddenly cannot get batters out, the term "over reacting" doesn't apply.

Jamie is one of my favorite pitchers, but the reality of the situation is that he has performed at a level that few (if any) men have ever performed at his age. That age has finally caught up with him. As much as I want to believe that he can "turn it around," there is no precedent to suggest that he will (unless Ponce de León is his trainer).

I'd like to see him finish 2009 in the bullpen. Short of an absolute miracle, I predict that a 2010 spot in the rotation is out of the question.

[clout]

JW: Everybody should wonder. Given his age, it's perfectly natural. But there is a difference between wondering and declaring him washed up, as posters here have.

[TNA]

"Let's not draw lines in the sand over this, either. All that Zolecki quote tells me is Moyer thinks he'll come out of it. All my post says is that at age 46, I wonder."

And all my post says is that at age 46, after winning his first championship after 22 long years in the majors at age 45, I wonder.

[G-Town Dave]

The Psyche Of Mets Fans:

They seek out a Phillies blog upon which to rip Phillies players rather than commune w/ fellow NY fans to address the fact that a showboating Rey-ass cost their team yet another win less than 24 hours ago.

Amazin', indeed.

[clout]

curt: Your reading comprehension has always been poor, but if you think KK is considered a star here, it has deteriorated to an alarming extent. Although I haven't seen anyone say he's washed up as you said about Burrell in 2007.

[clout]

Well, Mac Tonite has decalred that Moyer's age has caught up with him and it will take a "miracle" for him to rebound. That should pretty much settle the debate.

[Lake Fred]

Maybe Moyer can start tinkering with the knuckleball. He'd be great as a knuckleballer that also has six or seven other pitches. That would really keep the hitters guessing.

[Clay Dalrymple]

It's interesting that Baseball Prospectus forecast Moyer finishing at 5-6 with ERA over 5 this year. what did they know that Amaro didn't?

[J. Weitzel]

I don’t see Moyer tinkering with a knuckleball. The only future tinkering will be of the scrapbooking and birdhouse building variety once he retires.

[Erich]

I suspect that when Moyer was signed, there was an understanding that if there came a time when Jamie could see there was nothing left, he could continue as a roving pitching instructor. The effect he's had on the rest of the staff is hard to measure- but think about how much better the staff was last year than expected based on past performance.

[CY]

Erich - Do they get some of their money back if that happens? If not, they certainly overpaid for a roving pitching instructor.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Thou shalt not criticize Burrell or Kendrick.

[BobbyD]

I see Mets fans remain a joke.

[G-Town Dave]

Clay: For what it's worth, Baseball Prospectus has been heralding the end for Moyer for a decade now.

1997 - "... he’s not a safe bet; he’s 34 and if his control isn’t perfect, he’s liable to get bombed."

2000 - "... the Mariners boldly extended his contract through 2001 with a club option for 2002 ... & I expect him to be on life support by the end of his contract."

2001 - "The end is near."

2005 - "There may be no coming back from this. Hitters smoked him for a massive dollop of extra home runs this year."

[Kevin M]

I like Moyer and have so much respect for him. I hope he turns things around, otherwise the Phillies are all of a sudden on the market for a starting pitcher. Who would be available?

[Phlipper]

Though shalt not point out that Feliz plays decent defense. (When you don't like a player, defense is irrelevant.)

[denny b.]

I think Moyer is the type, if things don't improve in the next few starts, will either retire or volunarily take himself out of the rotation.

He won't stay in there, to get his brains beat out, just because he signed a new contract. He has too much pride for that and also now has a WS ring. He will step aside, for the betterment of the organization.

And, with all of the angst over Moyer, people are forgetting that Blanton hasn't been any better. I'd be ready to move him out of the rotation soon too, if he continues to give up close to 7 runs a game. You can't keep running him out there either, just "because".

The Phils people are looking hard at Vance Worley for a reason. And, that reason, is obvious for anyone paying attention. If he keeps pitching anywhere near the level he has been, and he will force himself onto the Phils radar. Carrasco and Kendrick have had golden opportunities, but KK has been inconsistant and CC has really struggled lately (might have some sort of injury issue). Carpenter might actually be 2nd in line right now, behind Worley, for a possible SP callup.

And, one last one....how much longer can the Phils survive with 4 of their 5 bench guys, hitting well under .200? I believe Mayberry will be called up soon, to get some AB's against lefties in Interleague Play (Mayberry will be the right-handed DH and Stairs will be the lefty DH). I'd think the Phils would be fined by MLB, if they use Eric Bruntlett as a "designated hitter" in American League parks.

[Phlipper]

As much as it kills me, I have to go with Clout for maybe the third time this season.

It seems a bit premature to pronounce Moyer cooked. He had a very nice year last year. His career has been up and down throughout - some years with ERAs well up into the 5 range and following years well down into the 3 range. There are no apparent signs of physical breakdown due to age (loss of velocity in his pitchers, signs of injury).

Why would we logically assume that someone that was a very solid pitcher last year would rather abruptly lose it due to age? Sure, it's possible - but given that he's had a pattern of bad stretches throughout his career - I think it would be a panic move to freak out and shake up the SR and bullpen by making moves at this point (and we all know it ain't happening, anyway - it just isn't Charlie's style).

We're not at a point where we need to be gambling. We're right at the top of the division with very little help from Hamels. The other starters more or less have to begin performing better, as a group.

The Phils made the right moves with Myers and Eaton last year. Pretty much everyone panicked and pronounced the Phils dead last year. Early on in the season last year, pretty much no one thought their pitching would be good enough to take them to a championship.

And personally, I don't care much about the contract issue. In the long run, speculating about whether the Phils might have better spent the money elsewhere doesn't change the facts on the ground. Who knows if they might have spent the same money on someone like Garcia, or make other changes that mitigate signing Moyer if he has lost it.

Of course, clout is still a weasel.

[Jack]

Here's the thing: Yeah, Moyer has had bad seasons and good seasons, and his career hasn't floundered yet. But we won a WS last year with him having an incredible, career-defying season, throwing up a sub-4 ERA at the age of 45. It's likely that he doesn't do that again, or come close to it, even assuming he bounces back from how bad he is right now (which he most likely will). It's also therefore likely that we don't have the same success again.

We won the division by 2 games last year, and Moyer's performance was a huge reason why. Someone else in the rotation needs to step up, because it's clear that, just as he's not going to be this bad the rest of the season, he's also not going to be as good as he was last year.

[The Truth Injection]

What clout said is 100% accurate. It’s natural to wonder if he has been caught by Father Time. However, the urgency of some posters to shovel dirt on him and call him “washed up,” is really ridiculous. Moyer is a finesse pitcher whose whole game revolves around hitting spots and location, location, location. He is missing spots right now and drifting into the middle of the plate with his pitches. However, he looked great thru 3 innings last night and not a single peep was mentioned of him being cooked. Then he started missing spots again and the chorus began. So if he is done do we ignore the first 9 outs of the game?

Couple things:

1.)As was presented by Zolecki, Moyer has had stretches like this in his Phillies career. I would venture in his entire career he has had a number of stretches the same as this one.

2.)Some are saying they should move him to the pen or down to the minors to get right. This is not a mechanical issue or anything that can be corrected. You either hit spots, or you don’t.

3.)There is little evidence that a 46 year old pitcher will be able to turn it around, but there is very little evidence he won’t be able to turn it around. Moyer is in unique territory.

4.)As I mentioned in the thread last night. It is foolish to declare it a bad contract a month into the season- just like it is foolish to label Ibanez’s contract good a month in. What’s even more foolish is some posters are saying we need to wait on the Ibanez deal, while saying the Moyer deal is bad. I know it helps your argument but you can’t pick and choose when you get to apply certain criteria.

[MG]

Couple of points:

- Agree with JW. Phils kind of have made their bed with Moyer and now have see what he can give him over the next few starts. Basically just

- Don't understand why people think Moyer is just going to walk away from over $10M+ yet. This is a guy who never really had a huge pay and didn't start to make decent money until his mid-30s.

He certainly isn't a pauper but he never signed that $50M+ contract either. $10M+ sets up your childrens' families large ticket needs down the road if you have even the most basic financial investment/advisory skills.

Only way I see Moyer walking away this season is if the Phils' agree to buyout a portion of his remaining deal and that chances of that happening this season I would say around 0%. Already paying a huge amount of dead money on Eaton and Jenkins contracts.

- I thought this was going to happen to Moyer last year and not this year. He struggled badly down the stretch in '07 (including some really poor starts in Aug./Sept.) but people remember his last start of the season and his great effort vs. Rockies in the NLCS though.

- Comparison to Moyer are out the window but I don't think he has lost any "professional edge" or desire. Hell, if anything I would say that he is the most well-prepared on the team. He is just like a car though that has 300,000+ miles. It could just go at any time and has been true for the past 3-4 seasons.

- As much as I am kind of a homer and would love to see Moyer as a pitching coach here when he does finally hang it up, Moyer probably will take at least a year or so off to spend with his family and reevaluate his options. Frankly, this would be the smart move as I would imagine he will have plenty of doors open to him after hanging up the spikes.

[Phlipper]

That is a good point, Jack. There's no way he's going to match his performance of last year if we consider this year as a whole - and it's unlikely that he'll perform at the level of last year from this point out. But that is different than saying that he's cooked.

But even as badly as the pitching staff has performed, the team is in the thick of the race, and it is hard to believe that the pitching staff can continue to perform this badly going forward. It's not panic time yet. I was absolutely convinced at the trading deadline last year that the Phils would probably not get into the post-season and certainly wouldn't advance past the first round because they didn't improve their pitching staff. I doubt that any BLer felt differently. So maybe we should be a little less loose with the doomsday scenarios this year. This team does have a strong character.

[Sophist]

Clay - In other places, BP has said that Moyer "breaks" PECOTA due t the lack of comparable players. At first, they didn't even have a PECOTA card for him.

[Brian]

Even if he has been caught by father time, how about a move to the 'Pen. Moyer is usually better early in the game when players have not had a chance to look at his stuff. What if we use him as a player/coach form the bullpen and allow Happ to take over his spot in the rotation essentially switching jobs. This is just anecdotally, not factual. But it sure seemed it last night.

[MG]

Truth - What about the 4th and 5th innings where Moyer was missing and missing badly? You can't be credible starter in this league if you can't even go 5. Minimum bar type requirement.

As for Moyer rebounding, yeah he might but that is the same kind of reasoning that people who buy junk-rated debt and penny-stock employ. Yeah it might work out but the overwhelming % of the time it won't.

As for Moyer's contract, it is not premature to state that giving a 46-year old pitcher 2 guaranteed years was idiotic. Phils should have gone 1 yr and an option. I almost guarantee that Moyer would have resigned here but it would have just taken a bit of higher kicker potential this year.

Instead the Phils tried to back-load to make a few more bucks this season and hopefully avoid paying Moyer a bunch of incentive kickers next year. They might avoid paying him most/if not all of the incentive kickers if he can't stay in the rotation all year but they still might be stuck with his $6.5M base.

People criticized the Park deal but I wasn't as down on that one simply because it was a 1-year deal with plenty of incentive kickers. Same with Eyre. Worst case story is that Park or Eyre were largely ineffective/hurt and would be released or gone by the trading deadline.

[MG]

I do agree that there really isn't much indication that placing Moyer in the pen will suddenly make him more successful. Nothing in the numbers indicates that really will change his fortunes that much.

Still, if you look his overall numbers I can see why people are down. Hard to find much evidence in the standard peripherals (BB/K, % LD), count split numbers, or the pitch f/x data to support that Moyer has looked like a credible starter this year.

[J. Weitzel]

Rollins back in leadoff spot, per lauber.

[The Truth Injection]

MG: As per usual with you- it's pick and choose what you want to read. I'm not discounting Moyer in the 4th and 5th innings last night. He started missing spots and looked bad. However he was great in those first three and not one single mention was made of him being done. Then the hitters adjusted (which they should do) and Moyer started missing spots. Even when he hit his spot (the Loney pitch) it was crushed because the hitter made the right adjustment. I think people are ignoring how MOyer looked thru 3 and only focusing on the 4th and 5th becasue it furthers their argument. Again- you can't pick and choose which pieces of the puzzle you want. You need to view the puzzle as a whole. Moyer was awful agains the Mets. In the first three innings against the Dodgers he looked like the Moyer we know. Then he looked like he did against the Mets again.

- No it is not the same logic as people buying stocks. I'm just saying you can't look at this in a vacuum. There is not an extensive smaple size for either side of the "age 46" debate. To try and make a final conclusion using the knowledge at hand is premature at best.

- I guess you're a prognasticator then that Moyer would've signed here regardless. Look the Phillies felt they needed MOyer and they offered him a deal that they felt got that done. One month into that does not equal failure. In fact, you are one of the main ones who has been saying you can't judge the Ibanez contract as a success after a month. So for Ibanez we need to wait until year 3 of the deal to see if it was solid, but for a 2 year Moyer deal we can declare it bad after 7 starts? That's some backwards logic you got working there.

[Sophist]

As for Moyer rebounding, yeah he might but that is the same kind of reasoning that people who buy junk-rated debt and penny-stock employ. Yeah it might work out but the overwhelming % of the time it won't.

Well, you partly assume the answer with the analogy. The question is whether or not Moyer is a "junk-rated debt" or something else (e.g., a player with a few bad outings to start the season.) There are clear differences between Howard to start last year and Moyer to start this one (age being the most obvious), but would those who argued that Howard would turn it around last year applying the same kind of reasoning as those who buy junk-rated debts?

[MG]

- Minimum bar for a starter is 5 innings and he struggled for 40% of that sample. Hitters weren't making adjustments as much as Moyer was just largely missing his spots and hitters were getting ahead in the count.

- Sure it is. You have a 100-year sample on pitchers and with a few exceptions almost no pitcher has been effective at Moyer's age and those who have been usually been unique cases (e.g., knuckleballers).

When you have 100 years of data and generally no other person has been able to do what Moyer did why did the Phils think Moyer would be able to do this for another 2 years? Pushing even further on an outlier and a great example counter-example of poor risk management.

- Yeah I do bet Moyer would have signed here if the Phils have given him some incentive upside this year or a higher base. Moyer want a 2 year guaranteed but I bet every other team said "no thanks." It was the same stupidity they employed with Feliz. Sabean flat out said that he didn't offer Feliz a second guaranteed year and it makes zero business sense generally to offer a player a guaranteed deal vs. an option where the team can pick it up or not depending upon performance/cost.

[Jack]

Truth: "There is not an extensive sample size for either side" doesn't work. The fact that no one else has done it isn't neutral, it's a huge part of the argument against. It's not like no player has wanted to pitch at 46, it's that they all realized before that they couldn't.

[MG]

Sophist - No. You can have a much better idea on how to model Howard's performance and the likelihood of success/failure for the rest of the year. Sure he could or have gotten injured but it was fairly reasonable to assume that Howard would bounce back. Same applies to JRoll this year. The question is just how much and when.

Moyer may also bounce back a bit but it is just as likely that he continues to pitch as poorly and really is at the end of his rope.

[bay_area_phan]

Actually, this isn't just a terrible 3-game stretch. He also had two similar games at the end of ST, so he has done this 4 times in his last 9 starts. And, looking purely at the regular season, Moyer's ERA before his last 2 starts was 5.65 and he had had just 1 QS in his first 5 starts. If those first 5 starts represent his upside, there isn't a whole lot of "up" there. And, yes, Blanton has been terrible too, but his statistics are nowhere near as bad as Moyer's and, unlike Moyer, he has had 3 QSs in 6 starts. And, oh yeah. He isn't 46.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, players have slumps, it's a 162 game season, he could turn it around, etc. But, at some point you have to conclude that you've seen enough evidence to take action. KK and Eaton were both pretty decent pitchers early last year. KK lost his job because of a terrible 8-game stretch and Eaton because of a terrible 7-game stretch. So if 7 or 8 games was enough basis to make a move on KK & Eaton, why is 9 games "way too early" to make a move on Jamie Moyer? I understand that everyone likes Jamie Moyer, but sentimentality has no place in baseball decisions. I've been saying that since the off-season when I was opposed to resigning Moyer, and all the sentimentalists on BL went nuts.

[bay_area_phan]

Jack: Excellent point. This "unchartered waters" argument is pure sophistry. The absence of successful 46-year old pitchers does not constitute a LACK of evidence on the point. It constitutes affirmative -- and overwhelming -- evidence that 46-year old pitchers are not likely to be successful.

[Mac Tonight]

"Well, Mac Tonite has decalred that Moyer's age has caught up with him and it will take a "miracle" for him to rebound. That should pretty much settle the debate."

A 46 year old man who is statistically the worst pitcher in baseball suddenly turning the season around to pitch effectively in a hitters park, and then coming back to do it NEXT SEASON...

It's hasn't happened before in over 125 years of organized baseball.

Yeah, I'd say "miracle" is a pretty appropriate word.

...and you said I was naive about Park's chances to succeed. Clout, I like Moyer too, but the writing is on the wall.

[Mac Tonight]

"if 7 or 8 games was enough basis to make a move on KK & Eaton, why is 9 games "way too early" to make a move on Jamie Moyer? I understand that everyone likes Jamie Moyer, but sentimentality has no place in baseball decisions."

Well said.

I'd be willing to bet that if we check the archives, we would find very few BLers defending Eaton in 2008. If I'm placing bets on the chances of a 31 year old pitcher rebounding vs a man 15 years his senior, the smart money is on the younger man.

Carlton got old and hit the wall. Seaver got old and hit the wall. Ryan got old and hit the wall. Moyer is no Carlton, Seaver or Ryan. He is a very good pitcher who had surprised everyone with his longevity, but there has to come a point where we take our heads out of the sand and realize that he isn't immortal and cannot successfully pitch at the Major League level until he chooses to retire. His body will tell him when it's time to retire, and I believe that time is fast approaching.

Washed up? No. Simply too old to continue? Maybe.

[bay_area_phan]

I agree with MG (as usual) that it's probably wishful thinking to believe that Moyer would retire in mid-contract. Moyer is a standup guy, but he's also got 7 kids & I don't see him walking away from $13M. Besides, very few athletes are objective enough to recognize when their skills aren't there anymore. If 90% of Beerleaguer is still delusional enough to think that Moyer is going to bounce back, why would we expect Moyer himself to think any differently?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I say there's no way he would retire in season. If this year doesn't turn around for him, maybe in the offseason, but not yet.

[Phils Suck]

G-Town Dave:

Get your facts straight. Reyes didn't cost the Mets the game. You watch too much Baseball Tonight and Steve Phillips.

I bet they only showed that play with him getting caught at 3rd and not sprinting on the CBP homer, instead of his three doubles and solid defense. Once Baseball Tonight makes up their mind about a player, they only show stuff that proves their point. But he didn't cost the Mets the game.

That was a double whether he was running out of the box or not. Yes, I think showboating on HRs is stupid, and very Phillies-esque, especially when you've blown two September leads in a row. But note, usually no Met admires homers out of the box. They put their head down and run.

But as for Reyes, he may not have cost the Mets the game, but the lack of hustle is disconcerting, because he came up as such a hustle player. I really think he's been hanging out with Hanley Ramirez (Miguel Cabrera + Manny Ramirez) too much this offseason at the WBC.

That said, I think you guys should get on board with Reyes, actually, and refer to him by his proper name. It's not a stretch that he will end up with 3,000 hits and a ticket to Cooperstown, where J-Troll can come see his entry.

[Matt]

Hey Mets troll - your new park sucks.

[PorkyFace]

I like Moyer but he is done. Myer, Blanton and Park suck too. The starting pitching is a mess. Need to bring up some young arms and see how they do.

[dmarley]

Gonna have to worry about Jamie a little longer, because it's not yet time to pull him from the rotation. He pitched a decent April, and has had 3-game stretches like this several times through his long career, so it's not necessarily the end of the line. I'd bet Moyer pulls out of this and can throw a high 4 ERA for the rest of the season. Not great, but certainly enough for this offense to win more often than lose.