Zolecki: Victorino, Lopes thought the ball went foul

According to Phillies.com scribe Todd Zolecki, Shane Victorino and Davy Lopes, who were standing on first base when Greg Dobbs hit the ball over the pole, said they agreed with Jim Joyce's call, which would explain Charlie Manuel's passive challenge to Joyce. Beerleaguer: Yeah, but they weren't watching it on a 120 hz plasma TV like I was (in reference to my earlier high-definition investigation). One of our readers, who was sitting in section 106 with a clear view down the line, also saw it that way. It's still disputable and probably should have been reviewed, but at least it helps clarify the real reason the Phils lost: the Red Sox outpitched them.

Lose the game, win the war. That's what the Phils will try to do when they go back at it tomorrow. [Link to Zolecki's piece]

Comments

[mikes77phillies]

There is good that come from these games. These tough losses in June and July show Cholly who he can trust in August and September. He does it every year. He keeps playing guys that have no chance at succeeding, (but) in the roles that they were projected. Then in August and/or September, they take a seat for the rest of the season. Jenkins, Taguchi, Helms. Good news is Eric Bruntlett is playing himself out of August and September.
Guys, criticized me when I said in spring training that Miguel Cairo was a better player than Bruntlett, but I bet Cairo can get a bunt down. Getting a bunt down in a critical spot is more important than having a guy who is just good enough at every position, to be below average at all but one (and a butcher on at least 3). Besides, Cairo's OPS+ was 20 pts higher than Bruntlet's last year (which is stunning considering Cairo can't hit HR's). In short, get Bruntlett OFF THE TEAM... And Kyle Kendrick can save himself some embarrasment too, and go sell insurance for a living

[EastFallowfield]

The view from NY:

There is no doubt that -- until further notice -- Boston and Philadelphia are the kings of northeast baseball. They have accentuated that by winning the past two World Series and then reinforced this reality in the three days prior to the first Subway Series of 2009 by again humbling the New York teams.

And if any further clarification were necessary, the Mets and Yankees were playing a game in the Bronx that neither club deserved to win at the same time the Philadelphia masterpiece was ongoing.

[Matt]

From the front page of Philly.com:

Suddenly, but ever so briefly, it was in their grasp, just as it has always been this year for the Phillies. Could they do it again? Then Kyle Kendrick strolled out from the bullpen.

Ouch.

[tg082]

I think -- although I could be wrong -- that there was already a situation this season where Cairo was called on to bunt, and he either struck out or popped it up. I don't feel like trying to dig it up, though.

[The Truth Injection]

Kendrick may have given up the runs but this is a hard loss to pin on him. They had runners in quite a few innings late and couldn't get them in. Bruntlett showed an inability to get a bunt down (something he has been good at in the past). And as poorly as they hit, they had no business even being in a tie game that long.

tough loss, and there is plenty of blame to throw out before you get to KK

[EastFallowfield]

Cairo popped up a bunt in a loss to SD (the Lidge one that came after the Madson one).

Not only did he pop it up, but a smarter pitcher would have let it drop and gotten a DP.

[Jimmie J.]

FROM THE WIRE...
Luis Castillo released from the Mets this morning. Immediately picked up by Chico's Bail Bonds.

[Sct]

Almost entirely lost in the mess this game turned out to be is a nice, tight performance by Joe Blanton. I sure do love to see the starters chugging to life (finally), so that we've got some semblance of an actual rotation going.

At least Howards' HR got Blanton off the hook for what would've been a very tough-luck loss.

And let's all sing the Kotter Song for Chan Ho Park: Who'd've thought they'd lead ya back here where we need ya?

4.22 era from the pen since the shift. Throw out one bad outing vs. San Diego, and it's 0.93, with 9 hits and 3 walks in 9.2 IP. He's gone from being a total tool to being a valuable tool.

[Dukes]

The real issue with this team right now seems to be hitting. The reason why the last 3 nights went so long was because we couldn't hit (and remember, the first extra inning game against the mets was a gift from what should have been 2 errors).

Jimmy Rollins and Jaysen Werth HAVE TO get going or there will be many more wasted efforts like last night - Blanton, Park, Madson, Condrey - and even KK had one good inning. Our pitching can't go out there and continue to hold other team at bay forever. This lineup gets so much praise and while Utley and Ibanez (and Feliz, actually) deserve it, everyone else needs to prove themselves.

[EastFallowfield]

Just as the Phils' brass had to see quite a few bad starts before they realized what Park is as a starter, I need to see a few more relief outings from Park before I declare him valuable.

[curt]

The theory that Werth could play every day has always been just a theory, a hope, and a prayer. He sure does look like a stud -- until you watch him try to hit ML pitching for a month or so.

[ozark]

Any LOOGYs available?

[curt]

Cholly's attempt to coddle Jimmy is costing us games. Every day he hits leadoff someone like Ibanez, Vic or Feliz misses an extra AB.

[Dan]

I saw that Kendrick was left in for the 13th even though we still had Durbin and Taschner available. After Kendrick got into trouble, why was he left in?

[Adam]

I don't know if others feel this way, but I'm starting to get extremely frustrated with Rollins' inability at the plate. Even if he's been unlucky, his production has been awful.

[loctastic]

good job on WIP J!

[bathtubhippo]

as others have said, jroll is not a leadoff hitter this season. he needs to stop "pulling an abreu" and just hit where he's best suited right now instead of where he wants to and cholly needs to stop coddling him.

[clout]

"Cairo popped up a bunt in a loss to SD (the Lidge one that came after the Madson one)."

Exactly right. Cairo is not known for his bunting skills. Of course, Bruntlett sucks at bunting too so mikes77 is at least half right.

[clout]

Dan: Durbin had pitched in 3 straight games, so he wasn't an option. It was either KK or Taschner. In other words, Charlie had a choice between damned if you do or damned if you don't.

[Bonehead]

I don't like discussing such tangential issues, but...

Our TV announcers are significantly, adversely impacting my enjoyment of watching the games. All three of them.

I miss Harry. Hell, I still miss Richie.

[EastFallowfield]

Harry and Richie will be missed until the last of us who heard them passes on, then our kids and grandkids will vaguely remember some legendary old announcers that their folks talked about and they hear on the old highlight videos from the old days.

[MPN]

Reading the ESPN right up of the game you'd have thought that there was no big whoop on the HR call. Ridiculous. They didn't even report Charlie's talk of how the ump basically told him to eff off when he asked to review it. This game still has me viscerally angry.

[MPN]

write up....... damn I need a cup of coffee......

[donc]

Can anyone answer this for me? In the ninth Tito had to have a lefty left in the pen, didn't he. I was in a crowded watering hole and was absolutely shocked to see Howard facing a righthanded pitcher in that situation. As has been said on here so many times, Howard virtually never faces a righthanded pitcher after the 7th inning of a close game. That was one of the most predictable outcomes I've ever seen. Oh yeah, John Lester is something else isn't he?

[MPN]

donc: Okajima is the only lefty in the Sox pen. He was used in the 8th.

[EastFallowfield]

Francona sure is a smart guy, his desperation reliever throws 100 MPH, and Charlie's hopes that the line drives he allows go right at 'em.

[donc]

Thanks MPN. That would explain it. Couldn't follow the game very closely where I was. I think Francona is a tool but that really would have been a hideous mistake.

[TK]

Yea, Boston's bullpen depth is absurd. Pretty much everyone in that pen can throw mid-high 90s cheese.

[bay_area_phan]

donc: Actually, Okajima was the only left-hander in the Sox' pen & Francona had just removed him for a pinch hitter. One point no one mentioned: Philles were pretty fortunate that Papelbon wasn't available. If Howard had been facing Papelbon, I seriously doubt that 9th inning homerun would ever have happened. Come to think of it, that might have been a good thing, since we ended up losing anyway. Only difference is that our pen would have stayed rested and this morning's angst would have been directed at the lineup, instead of KK.

[donc]

Yes. Even that guy that gave up the Howard bomb was throwing serious gas. What an advantage. And didn't Papplebon look like a mental patient in the pen all night? Weird dude.

[donc]

It would have been nice to get a win in the one game where Papplebon was unavailable. A match up between him and Howard would be fun to watch though. But BAP, you are correct that would have decreased Howards odds greatly.

[Dan]

Personally, I'd rather take my chance in the 13th with a fresh guy who wasn't having a terrible season (Taschner) over the guy who hadn't pitched in the majors all season. Although it's true you don't know how long the game's going to go, you can't assume you'll be coming back for the 14th, either, so you need to make a change if you can.

It was pretty clear that Kendrick had nothing in the 13th.

[donc]

I have never had one ounce of faith in Kyle Kendrick. I think Kyle and I have that in common.

[G-Town Dave]

" ... the real reason the Phils lost: the Red Sox outpitched them."

JW: Really? The Phils' starter goes 7 innings & gives up 2 runs. The 'pen extends their scoreless innings streak to 16 (including 2 & part of a 3rd straight extra inning game) before finally going down. But the Red Sox outpitched the Phillies?

I'm all for giving the other team credit, but there's a difference between great pitching & poor hitting, & there was at least as much of the latter on display last night as there was of the former. At least the pitching staff has come around after being terrible at home. Sadly, the same cannot be said of the offense. 2 runs. 13 innings. PATHETIC.

[mwbbfan]

The Boston pitching was impressive but it might be giving them too much credit to say they outpitched the Phillies because fair or foul, Dobbs smoked that ball.

[Lake Fred]

I watched ESPN's highlights this morning with no footage of the Dobbs foul ball. I guess it wasn't important.

There's a four letter curse word that ends in "K". I am changing it to a five letter work. It now ends in "KK"!

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[taz]

I understand how some may not believe that jerseys are buried beneath Citi Field. Thats ok, I'm not trying to convince people. Take a look at when I posted this on this forum below (LAST SUMMER) This is proof that I've been sitting on this for a while - contrary to what Howard Eskin thinks.

Unlike the dope that revealed his identity for the Ortiz Jersey thing, nobody will even know who I am. Is this an original prank? No, but who cares? Did you invent every joke you ever told?? When your at Citi Field, say hi to the Burrell, Howard, and Utley jerseys beneath your feet.

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ml-phillies&msg=68346.1

p.s. The jinx is on. Since I let this be known to the NY media, the Mets have lost several games in which they had a lead. This will begin their downward spiral. Also, why are the Mets investigating this?