Thursday: Vic sticks the Reds, stuffs the ballot box

If you're casting your emotionally charged vote for Shane Victorino and feeling guilty about it, just remember all the impulse voting that occurs at the highest levels of government - and this candidate actually deserves it.
 
Victorino's walk-off flare to left-center froze in space long enough for flat-foot Feliz to score from second standing up, as the Phillies scratched out a 3-2 win over the Reds last night. Vic is locked in a dead heat with Pablo Sandoval in the All-Star Final Vote ballot headed into the final day. It's making for excellent drama, even though Vic could make the team anyway since outfielder Carlos Beltran has withdrawn with an injury. Underscoring this particular storyline is that the Phils have won five of six, and Vic is a big reason why. Last night he reached base three times, incluidng a station-to-station effort to put the Phillies on the board in the fourth. His game-winning hit erased what started as a sickening series of events, when Paul Bako popped up a bunt and Eric Bruntlett ... forget it. Doesn't matter.
 
With Victorino stealing the show, it was also a night of overlooked moments. Don't overlook Jimmy Rollins' walk, which pushed Pedro Feliz into scoring position. It was just a vital to the win.  Jayson Werth reinforced the stereotype that for every two or three at bats where he does his best to imitate the drunk jock in the slow-pitch league, he's good for one crucial homer or RBI.

Nevertheless, improved pitching rules the Phillies' run, and it all starts with the rotation. Chad Durbin, J.C. Romero and Ryan Madson were excellent in relief of Rodrigo Lopez, and you get the sense that this string of deep outings by the starting staff has saved the 'pen from a complete implosion. Considered decimated less than two weeks ago, they appear to be in full recovery. If Lopez wouldn't have gotten hurt, the Phillies likely would have had their seventh quality start in a row. Lopez, by the way, was given the early diagnosis of a mild shoulder strain and he could be back for his next scheduled turn, which won't occur until after the All-Star break.

Comments

[Dan]

WEithout a doubt this amazing run of quality sarts is the story of the month. I think we've had almost as many in July as we did in April and June put together (slight exaggeration). Is this the true state of the pitching staff or just an amazing series of unlikely events all happening at the same time?

[Run Up The Score]

Can we also vote for which Phillie we'd like to have sent to Lehigh Valley? And by Lehigh Valley, I mean Siberia.

[p. Red]

Good win by the Phils last night. Nice to finally win a close one again. Vote for Vic!

Also, not sure if this has been posted yet, but Jayson Stark was on 950 ESPN yesterday and speculated that to get Halladay the Phils would need to give up Drabek, Donald, Taylor/Brown, Happ and probably one or two more lower-tier prospects. That is crazy talk!

http://950espn.com/Audio/tabid/183/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/4109/JaysonStark.aspx

[Bubba]

Long shot All Star Scenario-Vic gets voted in and Charlie fill the open roster spot from the hated Mets injured player, Beltran, with Werth.
Way too hometown a solution to ever happen, but fun to think about. Werth has been getting his hits and HRs and playing some quality defense.

[Bay Slugga]

Is Eric Bruntlett really a better option then some of the dudes we have at AAA? I'd rather play with the short bench and have Jack Trashner be our 25th man.

[mvptommyd]

Even if Victorino doesn't get "voted" into the final All-Star spot. Correct me if I am wrong, but won't he named in anyway as a injury replacement to Beltran and/or Ibanez?

[RSB]

No offense Jason, but I'm beyond burnt out on the Victorino all-star hype. All this for maybe one AB in the eighth inning off Brian Fuentes or somebody. Why no rallying cry for Jayson Werth, who suddenly has one fewer HR than all-star Ryan Howard?

[RSB]

Two fewer, sorry. Still.

[Bay Slugga]

I'm OK with a Halladay trade as long as we keep Drabek and Taylor/Brown. Also, it would be nice to extend him once we acquired him. This same scenario worked out perfect for the Mets when they got Santana. Gomez isn't playing very well, and Humber was a bust.

[dick allen-15]

lets face it, Sandoval and Kemp have better numbers and deserve to go. For that fact Howard being the fourth first baseman and hovering @ .252 doesnt deserve to go. I have never beleived in the "hometown vote" scenario. Sorry to digress. Should we have taken votes away from Shane for the wonderful defensive play he made which helped Cinn score their two runs ?? I really dont care for the ballot stuffing excercise every year

[loctastic]

'vote for shane' is the new 'michael jackson died'. it's inescapable. having said that, i've voted 50 times so far today.

amaro has to get those incriminating pictures back from bruntlett so he can get cut already.

[sneed]

Well done Weitzel. I've been trying to articulate that point about Werth all year. Until now, I've called it the "clown swing." However, he sure does produce and play a mean RF.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Werth isn't under consideration in the vote for the last spot.

[clout]

Good col today by Conlin on Michael Taylor, whom he says should be untouchable.

P.S. Did anyone else find it hilarious that mac tonight argued all day long that the Jays won't get any better than secondary or B level prospects for Halladay and then last night suggests a deal that includes Carrasco and Knapp?

[Bay Slugga]

I really do not approve of the current system for voting All Stars. With that being said, I think we should stuff that ballot boxes for our boys and show our support. It is obvious that being selected to the AS is very special to the players, and if we have to vote 200 times a day then so be it. It is one of the many advantages to playing in a large market, and we should take advantage of it.

[curt]

Rube, in his best management-speak, saying "forget about Halladay, I'm playing it safe."

[thephaithful]

i do have a major mancrush on Michael Taylor, I'd love for him to survive any trades...but for Halladay I'd make the sacrafice.

clout: I think you should look more at Hairston's LHP splits since his main usage would be RH PH or a platoon with Dobbs if one of our starting OF went down for extended time.

[clout]

Re: The rumored Worley/Hairston trade, I realize Hairston has a big split between LHP and RHP (i.e. he is worthless vs. RHP) but Worley seems a high price for a guy whose only role will be to hit LHP even if he does have a career OPS of .892 against them.

Why? Because Mayberry is hitting .858 against them as a rookie and he's already here.

If we were getting someone who could hit both righties and lefties, I'd be on board, but I don't consider Hairston so much of an upgrade from Mayberry as to warrant dealing Worley.

[curt]

I'm against Vic playing in the AS game, but like the idea of him being appointed to take Beltran's place.

[Bay Slugga]

clout: I would consider Carrasco one of best prospects as he was listed in the top three to start the year. Even though he hasn't fared well this year, I still think he will be a good major league pitcher.

I don't know much about Knapp other than his overpowering fastball, but I may consider him B level.

I think it is obvious that if a deal is made for Halladay, it will have to include multiple A level prospects. Carpenter, Kendrick, and twenty bucks isn't going to get it done.

[thephaithful]

I agree that Worley may be a bit high in value, but I don't share you're optimism that Mayberry is going to sustain(or improve) his numbers vs LHP.

[MPN]

Reposted from last thread:

clout: That doesn't concern me as much as his belief that we are fine as presently constituted to make the post-season, let alone repeat. That illusion could come crashing down if we hit another skid. Anyone who doesn't think that pitching equals success in this game needs to go and look through the San Francisco Giants box scores and examine their record.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I really like Knapp and his overpowering fastball. I hate to say he's "untradeable", but to have an 18(?) year old throwing 98 after his 100th pitch is something the Phils don't ever seem to have. He's no lock to be anything in the bigs yet, but he's a guy to watch.

[Jack]

I would trade Worley for a bench upgrade. Whether Hairston would have been that upgrade is a legit question.

Righty 5th starters are a dime a dozen, and that seems to be what Worley is. A 65/32 K/BB ratio in 100 innings is not exactly an indicator of anything more than back-end potential, although I will grant he's young for the level, and so I would give him next year at Reading.

If those K numbers don't improve next year though, you're looking at a 5th starter.

[gobaystars]

I'm sure its been debated to death, but I'll throw in my two cents and say that getting Halladay, even at Stark's price, is worth it. Donald is a non-factor for the Phillies at the major league level, the only level that matters. He is not playing short anytime soon, despite Rollin's struggles. He's not playing second and two more years of Feliz looks more and mroe likely everyday. I would like him on the bench, but if he isn't there now, why would he be there next year? He is a guy you trade in a heartbeat to win now.
Happ is major league ready talent but he will never be an ace. He is pitching well enough and helping the team but he is expendable, although he is the biggest hang up for me because losing him will hurt the Phillies now.
Brown might be good but he might not. He is years away.
Taylor is older and further along but he might not be the star he looked like in A ball either. Who knows?
Drabek is tougher because he is a pitcher and the Phillies have developed about 1 good starting pitcher in my lifetime. He might be as good as Halladay. He will be a Phillie longer. He will cost less. He will have to struggle a little and take some time before he really contributes to a world series winning team.
With Halladay the Phillies can win the world series this year and next year. It is by no means a lock, but it helps a ton. Brown, Donald, and Drabek will not be important players on this team in this era.
Phillies fans know that it isn't very often that a team has a shot to win the world series numerous times . The Phillies do. They can. I would sell the future for today.
Remember, the parade goes to the team that wins 11 games in October and not the team that is most cost effective or has the deepest farm system.

[J. Weitzel]

Where are these Worley rumors coming from?

[Jack]

JW: Apparently we offered Worley and Correa to the Padres for Hairston, before they traded him to the A's.

[Tony D]

Jason,

The last bullet point at the bottom:

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9785130/Sources:-Rockies,-BoSox-explore-trade-options

[Petey Pablo]

Last night I somehow ended up sitting two seats away from two Mets fans who spent the game cheering for the out-of-town scoreboard and the Reds. From the 7th inning on, both were particularly drunk and obnoxious. Naturally, the rest of my section and I responded in kind. In the 9th, when Vic came up to bat, one of them kept yelling 'you suck Vic, you're no all-star.' I turned and said he should shut the f up, because the Phils were about to win the game. Two pitches later it was "VICTORY"-no time. Needless to say, great game; satisfying finish.

That Stark trade for Halladay is ludicrous.

[JBird]

Hairston's been playing well enough to start this year. The Padres should have gotten more than they did for him.

[SPF]

TRADE: Carrasco, Donald, Taylor, and Dalembert

[Lion's Pride]

Toronto is in such a bind, they need to dump salary and don't want to deal him within the division... this would be my offer
in addition to pikcing up his entire 1.5 years of salary:
Jason Donald
Kyle Kendrick
Joe Savery
John Mayberry

a far superior package to what we got for abreu and very similar to what we got for schilling. Taking on 22 million dollars of salary and parting with top prospects is wayyyy to much for even Halladay.

If they want much more than that I tell thim to have a nice day

[Jack]

Lion's Pride: I'm assuming you're being sarcastic. You can't honestly think the Jays would accept that deal, right?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I think the Jays would take SPF's offer sooner than yours, Lions Pride. That's laughable.

[JB]

Lion's pride - maybe if Gillick still was GM of Toronto.

[JBird]

Does anyone think that the Phils would be willing to take on 1/2 of Rios salary in order to give up fewer prospect? It's sort of win-win. Jay's save $30-something million over a few years. While for the Phillies, it would fill the need for a 4th OF/RH bat off the bench and would cost the team about $5.5 million a year. That's a lot of dough for a backup, but if nets you 1.5 years of an underpaid ace AND it lets you keep Drabek or Taylor under cost controls for 6 years, rather than filling a spot with a FA, it might be a wash $ wise. And if Rios ever regains his pre-2008 form at the plate, the Phillies could start him or flip him. . . thoughts?

[colton]

I don't think Toronto would do:

Jason Donald
Kyle Kendrick
Joe Savery
John Mayberry

...In a million years.

[RSB]

It's time to stop pretending that Kendrick is any kind of trading chip.

[R.Billingsly]

If Stark is to be believed (See p.Red's post of 10:01), then count me out on the Halladay sweepstakes. Too rich for my blood. I posted this at the end of last thread, but it's apropos here.

For me, the "untouchables" are Drabek and Taylor. On the fringe are Carrasco, Brown, Knapp.

[Jack]

RSB: That time was about a year ago.

[Rob]

I think Lion's Pride's offer is a low-ball, but I think Riccardi IS under pressure to deal Hallady sooner than later.. As the deadline nears, the value of each prospect/player will actually be GING DOWN than most people would have thought today. I think we'll all be saying: The (insert team here) got Halladay for who?

[MG]

Werth has some awful swings but to criticize him as a hacker or a free swinger is largely unfair. Man takes some bad swings but more than compensates with his overall numbers at the plate.

He sees alot of pitches per AB (4.52 p/AB vs. 4.12 for Utley & 4.05 for Howard), and the man walks a ton (14% of PAs vs a measly 6% for JRoll and 11% for Howard).

Plus, the man has been on a power tear the last month with 11 HRs.

Werth may do some boneheaded things sometimes but I think he plays a smarter brand of baseball than Vic does and is generally underrated on this team. Hell, he has a shot to finish with 30 HRs/90 RBIs/20 SBs. Not the 30/30 club but pretty damn impressive from your RF.

[rob]

GOING sheesh

[curt]

"It's time to stop pretending that Kendrick is any kind of trading chip."

The legend of KK will live on at BL long after he's become assistant manager of a car wash in Walla Walla Wash.

[R.Billingsly]

MG, I agree that Werth is underrated. He has a legitimate shot at the 30/30 club and 100 RBI every year. He's not going to hit .290-.300, but he will give this team the power from the right side that they desperately needed. Throw in his defense and arm, and you've got a pretty good ballplayer.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I saw many "elect Victorino" signs in Maui last year. Was fun being out there for the first few games of the WFS.

[gobaystars]

Werth is tall so his wild swings look even more wild.

[PHIinBK]

I was thinking the same thing as Jbird.

Toronto is choking on the Wells/Rios contracts. What if we pull a Cashman and give them salary relief in return for a lessor prospect package?

I know we're dying for pitching but at the same time i can't handle bruntlett anymore. I don't know why he bothers bringing a bat with him to the plate. Rios would be a phenomenal RH bat off the bench/4th outfielder.

[Bay Slugga]

I'm not sure why some people think the Jays have to trade Halladay. It is much more likely they trade Wells and Rios.

[JBird]

Bay Slugga: because nobody wants the contracts of Wells and Rios.

[colton]

Ricciardi has said he'll hang onto & pay Halladay next season if there's no suitable package. He & their team president says the money is there for that. I don't think they'll take a lesser package to rid themselves of Rios (Wells contract is simply too absurd & can't be moved). If the Blue Jays are trading their franchise player they'll no doubt wanna maximize the return. They'd be castrated in public relations if they packaged up Halladay + Rios for merely an 'ok' return.

[Jack]

Bay Slugga: Um, who exactly is going to trade for Vernon Wells and the 5 years and 100 million left on his deal?

[Tony D]

Victorino takes the lead!!!!

[JBird]

I don't know Colton, potentially saving $52 million dollars is a pretty big inducement.

[EastFallowfield]

Thought I could scout Halladay tonight (see if he improves on his mediocre post-DL numbers) but turns out the game starts at 8 minutes after noon. Oh, well.

[bay_area_phan]

One thing that must be said about Vic: is there any Phillie you'd rather have at the plate with the game on the line? To me, he's the Phillies' best clutch hitter -- clutch being defined (to me) as really critical game-hanging-in-the-balance situations, as opposed to just RISP situations or late-inning situations.

[JBird]

EastFallow: look at it as a public service and take the rest of the day off.

[JBird]

I agree with BAP I'd rather see Victorino in a big spot late in the game than Howard. I have no confidence in Howard in the 9th against a lefty.

[Terry Harmon]

When Raul comes back on Friday, will they assign Mayberry to AAA or release one of the catchers?

[Bay Slugga]

I would think Bako is going to go over Mayberry.

[baxter]

Toronto is looking to unload the hefty contract of our old flame Scott Rolen...

...won't even say it

[bay_area_phan]

Back when Pat Burrell's pending free agency was a big topic of discussion, a few of us (AWH and I) speculated that the Phillies sort of regarded Werth as a younger, cheaper, and perhaps slightly lesser offensive version of Burrell, but with far better speed and defense. That's a pretty good description of what he has become. Werth should end up with similar power numbers to Burrell and a similar slugging pct. He won't draw 100 walks like Burrell did, but he'll probably draw 70 and he'll somewhat make up the difference with .10 to .15 extra points of additional batting average. So instead of giving you an .890/.900 OPS, as Burrell did in his best years, he might give you an .875 OPS (which is exactly what 2008 Pat Burrell gave us). Of course, Werth will also steal 20 to 25 bases, play above average defense, and not need to be pulled for a pinch runner late in the game

[Pete Happy]

Baxter, what's he doing in Toronto, I thought he'd gone to "baseball heaven?"

[ozark]

Mayberry needs more ABs at LV.

[JBird]

For what we are paying him ($2.5 million) and what we gave up for him (nuthin) Jayson Werth is awesome. . . He does have a dopey looking swing though.

[JB]

Phuture Phillies latest post is on BA midseason top 25 and the Phils have three on the list:

Dominic Brown (17th)
Michael Taylor (23rd)
Kyle Drabek (24th)

PP also puts in tiers the Phils top 20 - tier 3 has traditionally been the tier 1 in years past.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

"Mayberry needs more ABs at LV."

I agree in theory, but on the flipside, it may be safe to say Mayberry is what he is.

[donc]

BAP: I was thinking along those lines last night. Werth sees a lot of pitches and gets his share of walks but his patience at the plate results in a lot of K's. Very reminiscent of Burrell. Many on here criticized the hell out of Pat for that and sometimes rightly so. Taking a walk in a crucial RBI situation often is not a good idea. Especially when you do see one or two good pitches during the AB. Having said that, Werth has been really something else. Love his defense and underrated baserunning skills. I'm continuously amazed at how fast he is. He goes from first to third like a freight train and is particularly adept at picking his spots to steal third (and home for that matter). He does occasionally do something boneheaded and I wish he would cut down on the strikeouts, but he really is a good ballplayer.

[JB]

JBird - probably to the surprise of alot of posters but Werth was a Baseball American TOP 100 prospect for four years so evidently the talent was well known.

Funny he was originally catcher but hit a few injury obstacles along the way.

[The Truth Injection]

Clout: My favorite part of Mac’s tirade was saying the Blue jays will absolutely not trade Halladay to a division rival but then proposing a 3 team deal where they ship Vernon Wells to the Yankees- filling one of their glaring needs right now. Also we send Mayberry to the Yankees in the deal so they then have 6 outfielders. My mission tomorrow is to come up with some preposterous theory and then challenge you to disprove it all day.

Two things on this thread:

1.) The Jays do not need to dump salary. I’ll say it again and hope it sinks in on the 5th try. Riccardi knows they probably don’t have the money to sign Halladay past 2010. Right now the pitching market is down and Halladay is the biggest chip available. The best way to maximize your return is to put him on the market now. It’s a smart business move- not a salary dump.

2.) Why would we possibly want to obtain Alex Rios from the Blue Jays to be a 4th outfielder. That would be a huge waste of money to pay a guy that good to be the 4th outfielder. If we were to obtain him it would mean moving Werth or Victorino who I’m very comfortable with in the outfield right now, plus they are much cheaper than Rios.

[JBird]

Just to add fuel to the fire, Buster Olney writes about Halladay and the Phillies on his blog on ESPN.com today.

[MG]

donc - Is it really a big deal that Werth takes a BB in an RBI situation especially if Ibanez or Utley/Howard are hitting behind him?

[Jack]

JB: That's impressive that Brown, Taylor and Drabek are all considered Top 25 Prospects by BA.

I think now would be a good time to stop for a second and take a look at where this franchise is. Defending World Champions, with a top farm system ready to produce young talent, and with a great stadium that sells out all the time, and a reinvigorated fanbase.

Did anyone think this was going to happen? Think back to the late 90's. I may have hoped for this, but I don't think anyone really thought this was realistic with this ownership and organization. Hats off to them.

[bay_area_phan]

Mayberry has had 679 PAs at AAA and over 2,000 minor league PAS in all, plus 3 full seasons at a Pac 10 college program. He has had more minor league ABs than Ryan Howard had, and Howard was kept in the minors forever.

Mayberry will turn 26 later this year. In terms of development, sending him back to AAA will accomplish nothing that can't be accomplished at the major league level. Until and unless he improves, he is what he is. Hence, the only relevant question is whether "what he is" can help the Phillies.

If the Phillies can find 25 players better than the present version of John Mayberry, they should send him back to AAA. If they can't, they should keep him. Considering the Phillies already have at least 2, if not 3, bench players who are plainly worse than Mayberry, I doubt very seriously they can find 25 players who are better than him.

[JBird]

Jack: except for 1993, being a Phillies fan sucked my entire life until the last two years.

[D.Patrone]

Read Paul Hagen's column today. I posted yesterday, don't count on Halladay coming here. Hagen must be psychic. He sums things up nicely.

Halladay to Philly is nothing more than wishful thinking. Ricchardi will not trade him unless he is overwhelmed by an offer. I think the Phils' offer will be strong but not good enough. One thing to remember, the Phils have no position players in their system who are Major-League ready. Getting Halladay will be difficult and expensive.

I don't mean to be a nay-sayer here. It's just my opinion that's all.

[donc]

MG: It can be against a left handed pitcher if he sees a good pitch or two. But in general certainly not. I was trying to equate it to some of the criticism that Burrell used to get. Lack of aggressiveness at the plate sometimes is a problem but in general I would prefer a selective hitter. What I was trying to express was my admiration for Werth. He has greatly exceeded my expectations.

[J.R. King]

Anyone with an ESPN insider membership want to copy and paste Buster Olney's blog post for us? Please?

[Brian G]

clout: I liked Conlin's column as well. But the hilarious thing is him calling the Red Sox prospect Taylor Buchholz, when his name is Clay. Would have been a meaningless typo except he actually used it to make a Michael "Taylor" connection. I guess with their financial difficulties they fired all of their fact checkers. Cuz seriously, how do you miss that one?

[Jack]

Brian G: I couldn't tell if Conlin did that accidentally, or if he was making a dig at the hype around Clay Bucholz by comparing him to failed Phillies prospect Taylor Bucholz.

[donc]

Random thought: Has anyone seen two more impotent back to back non-pitchers in a crucial situation than Paul Bako and Eric Bruntlett. That was embarrasing. And let's not forget Bako did the blind squirrel thing last night only to get doubled off of second.

[CJ]

Here's why Mayberry is staying... Ibanez will get more time off when he joins the club. He WON'T be starting every day and it will make more sense for him to rest against lefties.

Mayberry is staying.

[timr]

Halladay is available? I hadn't heard that. Think the Phils have a shot at getting him?

[CJ]

Buster Olney:

Ricciardi would love to keep Halladay, but the right-hander is eligible for free agency after the 2010 season and he is unlikely to re-sign with the Blue Jays. So Toronto will look to make the move now or in this off-season. It all depends on who is willing to pay the price.

When it comes to players like Halladay, there's no such thing as sticking a toe in the water. You dive in or you don't get the player. So while the Phillies might want to make outfielder Michael Taylor an untouchable, as Bill Conlin writes, they would have to be willing to give up a Kyle Drabek and discuss the rest of their prospects. Or maybe they'd want to hold back Drabek, but they'd have to be ready to part with Taylor, Jason Donald and J.A. Happ. They cannot open the conversation with the Jays by listing three to six prospects they absolutely will not trade and then expect to get one of the two or three or four best pitchers on the planet.

No, if any team wants Halladay, they're going to have to be prepared to give up a lot.

[donc]

I think BedBeard is right. Mayberry is what he is. Ineffective against righthanders and most tough lefties. And while he seems like a good kid he's made his share of mistakes too. I have a feeling what you see is what you get. Still I would MUCH rathere see him pop out of the dugout than the gnome.

[donc]

If I'm Ruben Amaro I've got to be thinking like this; We can win the division the way we are presently constituted. With a little tweaking along the way of course. Some moves MUST be made. But I'm not thinking this for any other reason than the division is very weak. But say we do get to the post season. Without another very strong starter (doesn't neccesarily have to be Halladay) you go quickly and quietly in the playoffs. So I guess the question is, is just making the playoffs good enough? And of course this supposes that we can take the division. I tend to think all of the competition sucks so we should, barring one of them making some giant sized move. I would love to know what Rube is thinking.

[sneed]

Did anyone else notice that Jason Knapp was in the first half of the next 25? We've got 4 of the top 50 prospects and that doesn't include Donald, Marson and Carrasco.

[Brian G]

After the Baseball America top 25 prospect list, they list "The Next 25", and Jason Knapp shows up in there. So that's 4 top 50 prospects. We definitely have the bullets.

That said, Amaro's quotes give me the impression he has no serious interest in doing what it really takes to get Halladay. Being a young and new GM, it wouldn't be surprising if he'd prefer to position himself for long term success. If he wins this year and we fall off significantly in 2-3 years, he's looked at as a guy who inherited a WS winner but couldn't sustain success after that on his own. I think if Gillick was still our GM, we'd get Halladay. But he's not. Amaro is, and his main concern may be to avoid becoming the next Barry Switzer.

[MG]

Bako stinks. He has largely been stealing a paycheck everyday since he has been on this roster and I doubt that he is going anywhere because Cholly like his "veteran presence" (he said that the other night) and "good defense behind the plate."

What I don't understand is why Cholly wants to start this guy now at least 2 times a week.

Bako is the kind of guy you keep at AAA during the season in case one of your catchers on the MLB roster goes down. You don't give this guy potentially 15-20 starts down the stretch of a playoff run unless you don't have a choice.

[sneed]

Brian G: Agreed 100%. His longevity will be determined more by his success 3-4 years from now than this year. If anything, expectations have changed quite a bit since the Wade era and I believe that management will have Amaro on a short hook after seeing what happens when you fire the home grown guy and hire a proven commodity.

[Brian]

according to BA Drabek, Brown and Taylor are in the top 25 prospects list.... just an FYI... the Jays can have one of the 3 ... not all 3

[MG]

Halladay trade is great conversation but does anyone really think the Phils would make that kind of bold move?

It is just not that style (right or wrong) and I can see some reasoning behind that especially if it is likely going to take 5 yrs/100M+ extension to lock up Halladay.

They still likely are going to need another starter though and I am in favor of them going the middling route for the likes of a Washburn or a Marquis.

Are those guys a No. 2? No, but you aren't going to have to give up the farm to get them and this team really doesn't have any great options at the No. 5 spot. Maybe Lopez stays healthy/effective but wouldn't it be better to have a known commodity out there who would give the Phils a chance to win most times out? A guy like Washburn or Marquis would fit that bill.

The goal really should be to maximize their chances of getting back to the playoffs. Yeah, the Dodgers have played well this year and the Cards might be tough with Carpenter in a short series but really the NL is wide open.

Last two years, there were two NL teams that were great teams but got hot at the right time and cruised to the WS. Likely will be the same again this year because the NL doesn't have a dominant team unless you are sold on the Dodgers (and I am not yet).

[Morty]

Happ, Carrasco, Donald, Marson. Two potential top half of the rotation starters and two quality prospects at positions of need. And you throw in some dude if need be.

[bigmyc]

BY NO MEANS are the Phillies into calm waters for a nice, leisurely cruise into October, but I love thinking about all the Doom and Gloomers just two weeks ago. Granted, these guys were bad, but it just goes to show that people without forsight and faith make up for it with poor speculation. See how that works?

[MG]

One last point - What happens if Hamels/Moyer/Blanton/Happ goes down with an injury at some point down the stretch?

Phils would be in a much better position to buffer they have traded for a starter and have to reach for a Lopez or Carrasco to round out the NO. 5 spot.

[J.R. King]

Another 7 shutout innings from Andrew Carpenter last night ... That guys gotta wonder what it takes to get another shot for the big club.

[doubleh]

I just think the Phils have as few issues to address and going all in for Halladay would prevent them from solving these other issues. A bat for the bench is of the utmost importance in addition to another SP. I cannot watch another scenario where Eric Bruntlett is up to bat with the game on the line. Opposing managers are not shaking in their boots.

It's all moot because there is no way the Phillies make this trade. It's a nice dream, but Halladay isn't coming here. It's just not how they operate as MG notes above. It's doubtful that Amaro wants to take such a risk so soon into his tenure.

[CJ]

Yo, new thread.