Hagen: Phillies should kick Billy Wagner's tires

As a colleague put it, Billy Wags “burned the Betsy Ross, Walt Whitman and Ben Franklin bridges on the way out of town,” but if he can help the bullpen in any way, fans may be willing to forgive and forget. [Link]

Wagner is scheduled to make his final rehab appearance for Single-A St. Lucie tonight and could join the Mets Sunday against the Giants. Daily News columnist Paul Hagen reports it would cost about $2.75 million to assume the rests of his contract, set to expire at the end of this season assuming, as everyone does, the Mets will entertain the $1 million buyout. Hagen believes Wagner could provide insurance for lost closer Brad Lidge and injured cleaner J.C. Romero, slowed by a forearm strain. Wagner, who turned 38 last month, last pitched Aug. 2 of 2008 before the Mets shut him down to undergo Tommy John surgery.

Wagner, who had run-ins with teammates during his time in Philadelphia and was called “a rat” by former Phil Pat Burrell, jumped ship in the 2005-06 offseason when the Phils refused to offer him a fourth guaranteed year. A pitcher with a rocky stretch-run and postseason resume, he may be best remembered in Philadelphia for surrendering a back-breaking three-run home run to Craig Biggio late in 2005.

LV, Reading swap catchers: Kevin Nelson will go from Lehigh Valley to Reading, while James “Tuffy” Gosewisch goes from Reading to the IronPigs, according to an IronPigs tweet.

Comments

[GBrettfan]

Um, no thanks.

But to the person who posted about The Onion's article on Shane, thanks - I love The Onion but usually forget about it. I found this old story on there, following the Dodgers' signing of Manny. Very funny! http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/play_every_day_to_the_best

[Billy Wagner Never]

N and O.

[CJ]

BREAKING:

Brett Myers to begin rehab assignment tomorrow in Clearwater. He'll start but pitch just one inning. He's slated for the bullpen when he returns.

[Pete Happy]

No effin' way that happens. More chance of the Eagles signing Vick.

[Klaus]

"he may be best remembered in Philadelphia for surrendering a back-breaking three-run home run to Craig Biggio late in 2005."

Wagner was my favorite '05 Phillie up until that pitch (I'm a sucker for guys who throw 100mph). At least it provoked Harry's greatest home-run call ever.

Anyway, I'd get him.

[awh]

I saw the headline but didn't read the Hagen column.

If locker room chemistry is worth anything, does it make sense to bring him back, even for the rest of the season?

How much "value added" does he really bring to the table assuming JC, CC and Brett Myers come back healthy?

[awh]

Klaus, I wonder if clout can give us "modesty" lessons?

[Shawn]

Pete Happy +1

[gobaystars]

4 runs none earned, but who cares?

That call almost made it all better.

[CJ]

Pete Happy: Hilarious comment on like 8 different levels. Well played.

[doubleh]

I'd have to see him pitch before I could comment. He's coming off of surgery and he's not exactly a spring chicken.

Burrell's not here anymore, and that was the main source of locker room friction on the team, so I don't think that's an issue. He was buddies with Lidge while in Houston, but I certainly think Lidge would bristle at the issue of Wagner being brought here to seemingly "replace" him.

Bottom line, the Mets would want too much for him. He'll likely be a Type A FA after this season is over, and I don't like the idea of Michael Taylor in a Mets uniform, knowwhatimsayin'?

[craig_one]

anyone have an update on how the prospects dealt in the lee/francisco trade are doing? not that it matters. just wondering, ok?

[CJ]

craig_one: Someone posted it a few thread ago. Carrasco won a couple starts, but was not real sharp. Neither Donald nor Marson have done anything to distinguish themselves. Knapp is still on the shelf.

In the meantime... Brown and Taylor are tearing it up in AA and AAA respectively!

[loqiel]

Please God not Billy the Rat.

[vegas]

No thanks, been down that road before. I rather see them go after a younger arm that dials up 100mph.

[phanatic's brother]

cmon really ?

NOPE

Wags, Pedro, whose next Paul LoDuca...

I think I would rather not be WFC than that.

[kuvasz]

Wags didn't simply burn the bridges, he set fire to the river. I don't think most ball players want a guy on their team who does that.

[TNA]

hh - what makes you think Wagner will be a Type A FA?

[Andy]

not enough rodents
about the only reason
to re-sign Wagner

[Andy]

hh - Forget Taylor. How about we offer Carlos Monasterios and Jesus Sanchez?

[Andy]

The real challenge in acquiring Wagner would be deciding, once he arrived, exactly which bus to kick him under.

[tjc]

Carrasco won his last decision, going 8 innings and only surrendering a run while striking out 10. His other two starts were mediocre. Knapp made his first appearance on the 11th - pitched 2 innings, gave up a run, a hit, 2 walks and 2 Ks. Marson is batting .324 with absolutely no power. Donald is hitting .257.

So pretty much par for the course for everyone.

[CJ]

TNA: Check out this link. It gives you the predicted status of every free agent. They've done a good job of making these predictions. Wagner easily qualifies as a Type A.

However... I can't imagine any team actually offering Wagner arbitration, so I think his Type A status is irrelevant.

[Spitz]

HH, I've also read that Wagner will be a type A FA, but that assumes the Mets or whatever team trades for him will offer him arbitration. I don't think that happens. Will anyone want to pay Wagner $10MM next year? I doubt it.

[goody]

When does O.J. get out? Maybe we can sign him to pinch-run.

[doubleh]

Yeah, I doubt anyone would offer him arb, either, but do you you think the Mets would trade him within the division without asking for more than what they might ask for from say, the Giants?

[CJ]

tjc: Thanks for updating!

[Spitz]

HH, I dont think there will be much of a market for Wagner. He's still owed about $3MM plus a $1MM buyout - I don't think many teams have the cash to make the trade. If the Phils are interested, I think the Mets will listen hard. However, I hope the Phils aren't interested.

Plus, Wagner is a FA after this year, and its not like the Mets are competing this year, so why not trade him into the division. Although the Mets still have a magic number (62) so some on this board may argue that they are still in the race.

[Danger Guerrero]

"Phillies should kick Billy Wagner's tires"

Not to nitpick, but you spelled "testicles" wrong.

[craig_one]

thanks guys/

[thephaithful]

haha guerrero.. very nice.

I'd agree with everyone else, but then that would be enough people for clout to declare it a 'beerleaguer consensus'. Can't have that...

[CJ]

doubleh: I'm not convinced the Mets would even consider trading Wagner to the Phils. To the Braves? Or Marlins? Maybe. But the animosity between the Mets and Phils like precludes Minaya from dealing a player to Philly that could help in winning another WFC.

[doubleh]

CJ: I'm with you. The Mets fanbase would lose their collective minds if he was traded to the Phils in the midst of a pennant race. If they have anything left at this point anyway...they've had enough bad PR this year.

I'm sure they'd be happy to make a move that might burn us, though.

[thephaithful]

For all of our closet tomahawk choppers out there, I'll sell you a ATL Home Game 1 World series ticket for $25.

[drake]

i was just looking on phillies.com...

why is saturday's starting pitcher TBA instead of cole hamels?

[Luis Aguayo]

I hear John Rocker may be avaialble.

[clout]

awh: What are you talking about?

[Greg S.]

Damn funny danger. Damn funny.

[bay_area_phan]

After getting swept by the Phillies, the Cubs seem to be taking out their anger on the Pirates. After scoring 4 in the 1st, they sent 10 batters to the plate in the 2nd before the Pirates even recorded an out. The score is now 12-0, with the Cubs still batting in the 2nd.

[goody]

drake: They are waiting to see what time he gets back to his room saturday morning, which might explain his poor daytime record.

[loctastic]

Billy Wagner? Sure, and the Flyers are planning on signing Eric Lindros.

[mvptommyd]

BAP: Yea now 14-0. Pirates are a joke. I guess that is what happens when you trade your team away and your starting pitcher is some guy call Bootcheck. With a career minor league ERA of over 6! And this guy is pitching for the Pirates.

[clout]

I don't understand why everyone assumes Wagner will be a Type A. The Elias rankings are based on stats from the previous 2 seasons. That means the rankings that come up Nov. 1 will be based on the 2008 and 2009 seasons. Wagner has not pitched in 2009. They do not revert back to the prior 2 years.

[mvptommyd]

I mean Morton, Bootcheck can in relief. Morton has a career 5 ERA in the minors in 2 seasons.

[awh]

clout, you have just proven to me that you don't read every thread.

Go back to the previous one and you'll figure it out.

[Spitz]

Actually Tommy, their starter was Charlie Morton, whose ERA (prior to today) was a full run better than Cole's! I think its time for Mr. Hamels to step it up.

[clout]

awh: No time. Fill me in.

[sneed]

F Wagner. He's garbage.

[clout]

The NY Daily News reported last week that the Mets intend to trade Wagner to any team willing to assume the rest of his salary for this year. I assume they wouldn't want much in return. Could he be a Romero replacement? latest word on JC is that it's gonna be awhile.

[ST]

drake, they've been messing up the phillies.com pitching matchups for a little while now. in fact, hamels last start was tba all the way until before the game.

[mvptommyd]

Splitz: Yea, I corrected myself. Being that it is only the 2nd inning I assumed that Bootcheck started but then I went to the first innings and saw it was Morton. But Morton has only started 10 games this year. So that isn't good enough for me to conclude him being better than Cole this year. After today he DEFINITELY won't be. By the way last year he started 16 games in his first year and ended the season with a 6.15 ERA.

[Spitz]

Well then, this start by Morton is an exemplary case of reversion to mean!

I still wish we had Jason Jarmillo, crappy defense be damned.

[zp]

Morton is definitely a better pitcher than his numbers showed last year, but he's probably a #3 at best. i believe he was pitching injured last year, which accounted for the ugly ERA.

[Klaus]

I don't entirely get the Wagner hate. Pernicious anti-german bias?

He's still a damned effective pitcher. A straightforward improvement upon Durbin, Eyre or Condrey. As for chemistry, how many players remain from '05 anyway? Burrell's gone and Rollins strikes me as a forgive and forget sort of guy. The rest just want to win.

[CJ]

clout: The people who do the Elias rankings I list understand what the rules are and they reverse-engineered how the ranking is developed. Using this method, they believe Wagner will be a Type A. I don't understand it enough to know, but they seem pretty certain.

Also, even though the Mets seem willing to dump him wherever they can... I'm not sure that will include the Phillies.

[skeeter]

We only have 7 spots for our pen. Here they are:

1. Lidge
2. Mad Dog
3. Chan Ho
4. Condrey
5. Eyre
6. Durbin
7. Moyer

This doesn't include Myers or JC. There is no room for Wagner. I'd rather bring up Matheison if JC or Myers don't come back.

[doubleh]

I don't have an issue with Wagner on a personal level; it just remains to be seen how effective he can be on the mound.

In light of recent Philadelphia signings, by comparison Billy Wagner is a freaking saint. If he can help, go for it. I can't imagine the Phillies would go there, though.

[Pete Happy]

I think that Myers fills the former closer rehabbing from injury for the stretch run role just as well as Wagner. The Phils already have enough injury question marks in the bullpen.

[clout]

CJ: I'm pretty sure that if Wagner doesn't play in the bigs this year he won't even get a rating from Elias. That's the way it's worked in past years when someone misses the season.

[clout]

skeeter: Do you see any pitchers on that list who are having bad years? Or who might not be as good as Wagner?

[gm-carson]

Cubs crushing Pirates with 17 runs and there's still like 5 innings left to score.

[Spitz]

Klaus, its debatable if he is still an effective pitcher. I think he's only had 4 apperences in single A. The Mets won't pitch him on back to back days, so you won't see too much of him in the bigs before he gets traded. I don't know if the Phillies or anyone else interested will have enough information on whether he's effective or not.

Skeeter: Moyer? Really? Great human being doesn't necessarily translate to great pitcher. JC needs to get healthy for this pen to solidify.

[doubleh]

Reading some blogs and Braves fans feel very confident they will win or sweep this series.

I'd sure like them to eat those words.

[skeeter]

Spitz, we aren't going to cut Moyer to sign Wagner---get real.

[curt]

skeeter - how many of those 7 make you want to call your bookie and double down when Cholly's arm twitches in their direction? 0? 1? 2?

[Klaus]

Spitz: True enough. I based my claim on his '08 stats, which are excellent. Without knowing the nature and history of his particular injury, I would still think, given his talent level, that it's a good bet that he would be good. And I don't think we would need to see very many appearances to determine that this is so. He's a two-pitch pitcher--if he's throwing hard and locating, that's good enough for me.

[Spitz]

Skeeter - I agree the Phils wont do that, nor would they want to.

I just don't agree with your BP ranking with Moyer coming in 7th. I'm hoping JC is back before the playoffs (remember, he was lights out last year) and Moyer is kept off the playoff roster.

[skeeter]

curt, I don't disagree with you but do you really think adding Billy Wagner solidifies that group? Someone has to be a fall guy.....I don't see any candidates from that list, do you?

[Klaus]

Rosters expand in two weeks.

[curt]

skeeter - there's no chance we're getting Wagner, but in theory, I wouldn't mind trying Wags out in place of most of these guys, including the 9th inning guy.

[Tom]

Why would a team focusing on the postseason want Billy Wagner? In 10.1 IP over 5 different playoff runs Wagner has given up 10ER and 3 HR and has a 8.71 ERA with a 1.839 WHIP.

Most recently, in 06 with the Mets vs the Cards in the NLCS...
he saved game 1 allowing only a walk.

Took the loss in game 2 after allowing a HR to SO TAGUCHI. Doubles by Pujols and Spezio followed and he gave up 3 runs.

Then in game 6 he gives up another 2 runs on a double by, you guessed it, So "Powerhouse" Taguchi.

Give me a break.

[clout]

Tom: Yeah, Wags totally sucks in post-season and always will suck. Regular season stats tell you nothing about a player's talents.

[CJ]

clout: It sounds like Wagner will be pitching at some point this year so he won't miss the full season. Like I said, I don't fully understand the Elias rankings, but these guys have been pretty good. The full list is linked at MLBTradeRumors.com.

I'll continue to believe what they have on the list until I see otherwise. They seem to know what they're doing.

[curt]

Tom - Sorta like Lidge's playoff performance with Houston.

[J.R. King]

All this Wagner talk makes me think of the 4-game sweep against the Mets in 2007.

In the last game, the Mets leaned on Wagner for a 2-inning save. Burrell homered. Werth stole 2 bases. Ruiz and Iguchi got hits. The Mets walked Rollins to pitch to Utley, who won it with a base hit to right field. Incredible. I had that 9th inning on my DVR and watched it 100 times. I can still remember Harry's call on Utley's single (with Sarge yelling in the background).

Bringing the conversation forward to the present day: Isn't there a better option to shore up the Bullpen than Wagner? Isn't there someone healthier?

[Greg V]

Wagner back with the Phillies? I don't fucking think so!

[clout]

CJ: Check with me on Nov. 1st.

[Tom]

If you think getting injured, missing a year, and being 3 years older is going to help him snap his postseason trend that's your call.

It's a glaring disparity in his performance.

[clout]

Tom: Here's what I think. Based on post-season performance Tito Landrum is one of the greatest players in baseball history.

His numbers in 19 post-season games: .347 .360 .510 .870

[CJ]

clout: I'll be happy to! :-)

[doubleh]

I think if Wagner's used in the LOOGY role, he can be very effective, if healthy. Bringing him in to replace Lidge as closer might be another issue entirely.

Again, this is all moot, because I don't see it happening.

[NEPP]

I'd rather kick myself in the balls than see Wagner in a Phillies uniform again.

[doubleh]

NEPP: Is that even physically possible? LOL

[awh]

hh, can you say yoga?

[dlhunter]

@awh

I've seen it done, and no yoga was required. Just copious amounts of cheap beer.

[joe l]

If by "tires," he means "balls," then Hagen is accurate.

[awh]

hunter, lol.

[control13]

Thoughts on Billy Wagner:

1) "You've . gotta . be . kidding . me, 3 run homer craig biggio"

2) "These (Phillies) fans aren't the sharpest tacks in the box, they boo you if you don't hit 100 on the gun"

3) If Pat Burrel says he's a rat in the clubhouse, that's good enough for me.

[limoguy]

Let's check Hagen for connections to Wagner and/or his agent.

Regardless of that, there's no way the Phils give a second thought to this.

[limoguy]

P.S. He also burned the Commodore Barry, the Tacony Palyra, the Burlington Bristol and the Turnpike Bridge.

We've got people checking on the Delaware Memorial. He probably burned that one also.

[clout]

limoguy: What about the bridge in New Hope?

[CJ]

Lineups posted:
Rollins, Victorino, Utley, Howard, Ibanez, Werth, Feliz, Ruiz, Blanton

Standard deal facing RHP Jair Jurrjens (how many players in major league history have had three J's in their first and last name?).

Jurrjens has had good success against the Phils. Only one Phils has an OPS over .735 against him and that's Pete Happy (.857 in 12 ABs). He's got a 2.27 ERA in 39.2 IP.

Also, the Braves have 6 regulars hitting from the left side vs. Blanton tonight.

[NEPP]

No Billy, we booed you because you were a complete POS.

Burrell was the clubhouse leader then..he was likely speaking for the team when he said that.

[NEPP]

****limoguy: What about the bridge in New Hope****

He burned both the highway one and the footbridge/local one over to Stockton. There are no bridges he didn't burn when leaving.

[Spitz]

Erik Bedard had surgery today. Is it safe to say that that trade may have been the worst deal of the decade? The O's got two all stars and a potential HOF (in my humble opinion) in Adam Jones...the M's got a broken pitcher for 2 years.

I wonder what sort of deal Bedard is going to get this off season, and whether the Phils would consider take a 1 year shot at him.

[NEPP]

Why would the Phillies look at Bedard?

We already have Hamels, Happ, Blanton, and Lee coming back in the rotation and Moyer under contract. We don't really need a legit 5th starter like a Bedard.

[awh]

I would sign Bedard to a minor league deal.

[JTH]

Thread de nu

[Z. McCarthy]

No way shovld the Phills even entertain such an idea. The guy is a "rat" and is coming off of major surgery. He's not worth the money or the risk to bring him back now for a post season run especially with the way he acts in the locker room. He's 38 going on 16.

[Tom]

If Wagner gets claimed by the Phillies, the Mets could pull back the waiver claim just for the sake they want him going to their rival (even though their out of it). I think he upset too many people in Philadelphia for them to want him back though. The Phillies may have gotten a taste of bad luck by taking on an elderly injury prone big-egoed over-the-hill heart-of-two collapsing Pedro Martinez. That's exactly what Wags is too.