Breaking news: Phillies bid farewell to Brett Myers

The Phillies have informed Brett Myers they intend to go in another direction. Myers, in turn, thanked them "for putting up with my (stuff)," according to the Inquirer's Jim Salisbury. [Link]

Beerleaguer: My eulogy to Myers was written May 30, two days after it was announced he would require season-ending hip surgery. Turned out, he was able to pitch again, but he was a non-factor, instead of an X-factor, as many of us hoped. Here's part of my piece from May:

“Even Bill Lyon would struggle to extract meaning from Myers' career. In five years of blogging about the Phillies, Myers has been the toughest player to write. Eight seasons have simultaneously felt like too much and not enough content. For a pitcher who constantly looked uncomfortable in his own body, he's still regarded as something of a work in progress, just two shocking years older than J.A. Happ. Still considered a front line starter by some, mounting evidence suggests otherwise. He never won more than 14 games, setting his career high six years ago.

“But before his career is painted in a broad brush of disappointment, recall the highlight, including two of the loudest Citizens Bank Park moments in history: the 2007 division clincher against Washington, and his amazing at bat against C.C. Sabathia in the NLDS. Ironically, neither had anything to do with starting pitching, yet he earned his World Series ring based on the two postseason wins and a stretch-run surge that guided the Phils to October.”

Back in May, there might have been some thought to bringing him back, but according to the Philadelphia Inquirer, that won’t be the case. I cannot blame them. Ruben Amaro Jr. met with the right-hander and said they won’t engage in negotiations.

Myers, a first-round pick in 1999, was 73-63 with a 4.40 ERA (99 ERA+) in eight seasons as a starter and reliever. He did right by the Phillies, too, earning a generous extension before the 2007 season that took him one-year past free agency.

Considering how slowly free agency moved last offseason, I bet Myers, with all his baggage, becomes one of the last free agent pitchers signed this offseason. On a good team, he’ll become a back-of-the-rotation starter, and as much as he likes touching the ball every day as a reliever, financially, it would be wise to market himself as a capable starter to a lesser National League squad like the Nationals, where he’d be a No. 2 at worst and could end up giving them some decent innings.

Comments

[Willard Preacher]

Brett was a true enigma and a roller coaster ride. To this day, I have absolutely NO IDEA what his ceiling is, what his definitive role is, or even whether or not he even really wants to play baseball.

I do appreciate his contributions to the Phillies as they've built a winner in his time here and I wish him the best, both professionally and personally.

[Willard Preacher]

Glad that they're getting around to looking for "loose bodies" in both Lidge and Eyre (BTW, in all my years following sports, is that a new term? Never heard of it).

Any chance they can have someone look for loose screws in Cole's head?

[mvptommyd]

JW, he will never end up at a lesser team like the Nats because he is going to demand between 7-9 million a year. Something that they won't fork over to him. I expect him to end up with the Cubs, Cardinals or.....the Mets.

[Klaus]

"financially, it would be wise to market himself as a capable starter to a lesser National League squad like the Nationals, where he’d be a No. 2 at worst and could end up giving them some decent innings."

Completely agree. It's inconceivable that a team would pay him decent reliever money: his K/9 has fallen steadily and he's dreadful at keeping the ball in the ballpark.

He's shown he can start, and that's worth something.

[EastFallowfield]

He can't possibly end up with the Mets. All those "wife beater" comments their fans have made over the years must mean that their team would never have someone on it with those issues. All Mets, past or present, are 100% decent and pure.

[Bay Slugga]

Good luck to you, Kenny Powers.

[donc]

Brett Myers a Met? Wow. That would be interesting. There would never be a dull moment.

[Old Phan]

Willard, I'm with you. What is this with "loose bodies"? Is it anything like "restless leg syndrome"?

[Kirk]

Actually, I would not be surprised to see the Nationals take a crack at him. They need some experienced arms to go with their kids and they need someone who can eat innings. Or, he may even be attractive as a closer for the Nationals while they wait for their second 2009 first-round pick, Drew Storren, to be ready to pitch in the big leagues.

[clout]

Alby: Re: The delay on a Feliz decision, your post makes sense. There's a ton of 3B available both in the FA and likely non-tender pool. I'm guessing Amaro and his braintrust are going down the list one by one to decide on who's their best target. But I can't imagine they'd actually sign someone before the Feliz deadline expires.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I can see the Cardinals thinking he'd be a good project for Duncan, though a team like the Nats is exactly the type of team that might go after him. 7-9 Million seems awfully rich for him.

[EastFallowfield]

Anybody buying the WS merchandise advertised on the right should be banned for life.

[donc]

If JW is right that Brett will be one of the last apples left on the tree, and I think he is, Myers will get the Pat Burrell treatment. Take it or leave it Brett.

[mvptommyd]

Bed Beard: He just came off a 3 yr/25.75 extension with the Phillies. No way he goes for less than $7 million, even with his injury. This year he made $12 million. Scott Olsen the Nat's #2 guy is only paid 2.8 million. Small market teams won't pay Myers what he will cost.

[J. Weitzel]

I'm trying to think of a comp for Myers. Jon Garland got 1-year, $7.25 from Arizona in 09 plus an option, and he's had a better career and wasn't coming off injury. And didn't have the same type of baggage. 1-year, 5-6 with incentives is the way to go, but he may actually need to settle for less.

[doubleh]

Let the Mets sign Myers. One of their biggest competitors in the division is stacked with HR hitting lefties, so of course you want to go out and get a RH starter than gives up flyballs by the boatload.

Totally makes sense.

[J. Weitzel]

Cardinals would actually be an interesting destination for Myers.

[EastFallowfield]

I think any destination for Myers will be interesting...

[Bedrosian's Beard]

MVP: Pat Burell was making $15mil but had to take $8mil. Who cares what Myers WAS making via his extension, what matters is his value coming off an injury plagued season and being a headcase. Ithink JW's got Myers' value pegged correctly.

[thephaithful]

re: 3B

of course there is a 'ton' of available guys, but not many guys who should start.

List looks pretty crappy. Juan Uribe had a decent bounce back year, and looked to hold his own at the position(UZR/150: 4.8) last year.

Maybe a platoon option if they decide to give Dobbs a chance again next year.

[EastFallowfield]

WFC WS roster Phils who've moved on:

So Taguchi
Geoff Jenkins
Chris Coste
Brett Myers
Pat Burrell

20 left, but rumors on Feliz, and hopes for upgrades for Bruntlett, Stairs, maybe Dobbs.

So far, no one's chosen to leave, it's all been the Phils' decision, despite the old 'free agency changed the game' theme.

[MG]

JW - All depends on whether Myers is trying to position himself a starter or reliever. If he goes as a starter, he probably get another $1 or $2M in his base but any team that offers him any kind of real money and counts on him to be a starter is probably fooling themselves.

I could see him getting signed a reliever and having a good season as a quality setup man in the right situation and if Myers' prepares adequately this offseason.

Frankly this is one I won't missing seeing in a Phils' uniform one bit.

[TTI]

I know sometimes we get hung up on road/home splits when the Rockies players are rumored to coming here but let's not overllok something.

Whether we like to admit it or not, CBP is friendly to hitters. It's not necessarily a bandbox, but it can play like one and it is deep into the alleys with some funky wall configuration in left-center. CBP is not a big hitters place like Coors Field, but it is not that far off.

Atkins would play half his games in that stadium and if he can give you 90% of his Coors splits he'd be a huge upgrade offensively over Feliz.

Also, he would get pitches to hit in our order as we would be legitimately 7 hitters deep with Carlos capable of putting together some hot streaks.

Wouldn't mind Atkins at all in our colors.

[Chris in VA]

I was at his major league debut ... and am more than glad to see him go. He's got upside, but too bad we haven't seen it too often. And his downside - both on and off the field, on a street in Boston and in the clubhouse - is well recorded.

Good riddance, Brett. You're someone else's project now.

[Bubba]

From philly.com:
"The Phillies are actively exploring options at third base other than Pedro Feliz, general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said today."

Guess that means he's gone, but time will tell.

I'm pretty sure Myers will catch on , but I think that in free agent market it's pretty hard to predict for what amount this early .
My guess is , between injury and personal history , he will be hard pressed to get the bucks he is used to getting.

[Alby]

Assuming Feliz gets shown the door, the only two names on that list on the last thread that represent an upgrade are Figgins and Beltre, aren't they?

Figgins' name has come up on MLB Trade Rumors in connection with every team that needs a leadoff hitter, whether they have a hole at 3B or not; remember, he spent several years as a super-sub. I think he gets at least $10 million per on a 3-year deal.

Beltre strikes me as a player a lot like Feliz, albeit a bit bitter. Still, his career OBP is just .325 -- better than Feliz, but still sub-par. He has more power, too, and plays better defense, but throw out his near-MVP season and you're left with a guy who's a good supporting player but no star.

The big question is how much it will take to sign him. He's made 8 figures for the past 5 years now. Will he sign for only $8 million a year or so? Will he take a one-year offer to try to rebuild his value?

I think he's the only real upgrade out there, but I question how much of a commitment Ruben would make to a guy who's on the wrong side of 30.

I also wonder what the track record is for players coming back from a severe testicle injury suffered because they find wearing a cup "uncomfortable."

[EastFallowfield]

Please note when you compare crowds at the 2009 and 2008 parades...

2008 Parade route: Approx. 4 miles.

2009 Parade route: Approx 7/10 of a mile.

[Noah]

I like Atkins, I think he's a very good right handed bat. I also think he's subpar defensively and I am not sure his offensive upgrade would make up for a defensive downgrade.

I think Beltre fits this team perfectly, he improves their third base production offensively and defensively. If they can't get him, I'd almost rather explore Feliz with a one year contract and an eye towards really solving the problem in 2011.

[MG]

Myers is exactly the type of pitcher who will get hurt in this type of market - a middle-aged starter coming off an injury-plagued season with a checkered personal history.

I bet you even 3 years ago that Myers would have gotten at least a healthy one-year deal a starter if he wanted. Now, he probably will have a modest base no where near his salary last year with plenty of incentive upside instead.

[Brian G]

In each of the last two years before the closer experiment, Myers was a top 30 or 40 starter in MLB. He's still fairly young and has never had any serious arm injuries. There's no obvious reason why a return to that level of performance is impossible(heck, it happened at the end of last season). A smart team will take a chance on him. A borderline contender like the Brewers or Mets would be wise to.

[bay_area_phan]

I know he's injured and barely played this year but, assuming he's healthy, a name I'd watch is Troy Glaus. If he could return to pre-injury norms, I think he'd be a great addition to the Phillies' lineup because he really wears out left-handed pitching. He's good defensively too.

[Burt Lavallo, friend to all]

i'm not too sorry to see myers go, fond memories of 2008 notwithstanding. still, i think it would have been better to bring him back here with an incentive-laden contract, since he potentially gives you depth at starter and closer if something goes haywire.`

[Willard Preacher]

When do we get clout's playlist on the right hand side?

[bay_area_phan]

A good comp to Myers would be someone like Braden Looper, who signed for 1 year, $5.5M last year. Like Looper, Myers has been both a closers and a starter over the course of his career, & his performance in each role was fairly comparable to Looper's. As a starter, I'd say Myers has been slightly better than Looper, but that's probably offset by the uncertainties over his health.

Myers, of course, is considerably younger than Looper and it's possible some GM could become star-struck by his combination of age and stuff, & offer a multi-year deal. But the most likely outcome is that he'll get the same type of 1-year deal that Looper got last year.

[jlwells5]

"Please note when you compare crowds at the 2009 and 2008 parades...

2008 Parade route: Approx. 4 miles.

2009 Parade route: Approx 7/10 of a mile."

A four mile parade through NYC would also disrupt far more people than live in Philadelphia total. It's a lot more densely populated in NYC.

[Joel Goodling]

The 2007 division close out was my Myers highlight with the glove thrown into the air along with the HK call. That's how I'll choose to remember the Phils version of Kenny Powers.

[clout]

Alby: You are ignoring the nontenders who will soon be FAs, including Atkins.

[clout]

Brian G: Agree with you 100% on Myers.

[doubleh]

jlwells5: Exactly, which is why NYers should stop saying their parades dwarf Philly's and other cities. More people live in NYC, so it makes sense.

[clout]

WP: It would be an eclectic mix of Otis Redding, Shamekia Copeland, DCFC, Sharon Jones & the Dap Kings and Felix Da House Cat channeling Nina Simone.

[curt]

Free agents this year are pretty much screwed. Maybe 3 teams will increase payroll. Most of the rest want to cut payroll. The real unemployment rate is nearly 18% and still rising, and among baseball fans it's a lot higher than that. It's the ultimate buyers market.

[bay_area_phan]

Alby: To clout's comment, I would also add one more. You shouldn't just look at the guys listed as 3rd baseman; there are also guys listed at other positions who have played extensively at 3rd base. Placido Polanco is one guy who has been mentioned in previous threads -- although I'm not sure he'd be an upgrade. Two other guys who are listed as 2nd baseman, but have played 3rd base fairly recently, are Marco Scutaro and Ronnie Belliard. Either, in my view, would be a big offensive upgrade -- particularly Scutaro.

[Burt Lavallo, friend to all]

"Kenny Powers is officially a free agent," he joked in a telephone interview.

http://zozone.mlblogs.com/

I do love that he calls himself that.

[Willard Preacher]

"The real unemployment rate is nearly 18%"

Really? That's a bit of a departure from the numbers just reported (albeit dismal as well)...

[Willard Preacher]

clout, I'll download some of those this weekend. That is, assuming I can find "Felix Da House Cat" on iTunes.

[doubleh]

I met Shamekia Copeland at a random blues bar in Chicago several years ago while there on business. That's the great thing about blues artists; they drop into clubs all the time to work on songs. What a voice.

[curt]

Willard - the "headline" number doesn't include lots of unemployed - people who've stopped looking for work, people working part time for lack of a full time job, etc.

[Old Phan]

Clout, I was expecting Michael Buble on your playlist, not Felix Da Housecat. j/k

[Wayne]

Maybe the safest bet at 3rd for a 1 year contract might be free agent Placido Polanco.

[bay_area_phan]

Wayne: What's safe about a 34-year old singles hitter who hasn't played a game at 3rd base in 4 years, whose only skill is hitting for average, and whose average just dropped precipitously last year?

[MG]

williard - U6 is likely the number the 18% was referring to. It includes those who want work but have dropped out of workforce/stopped looking.

http://www.shadowstats.com/

or the Fed Beige Book is a good place to look for more info on employment.

[CJ]

Willard Preacher: The reported unemployment rate (10.2%) and real unemployment rate are very different. What the government reports as unemployed does not include many people who are no longer looking for a job even though they don't have one.

[brett]

Abolute NO to ronnie belliard. I hate that rat.

[RK]

Polanco would be a fabulous person to sign. He does not strike out, he gets hits and he can play 3rd and 2nd. In other words he is a real upgrade for Bruntlett.

[clout]

BAP: Polly had a really bad year but his OPS+ of 89 was still comfortably higher than Feliz. I do wonder if he still has the arm to play 3B, however. He did 5 years ago.

If you look at the guys who are available, both FA and non-tender, most of them had bad or mediocre years, which is why they're available. At least half a dozen of them would be significant upgrades over Feliz.

[Old Phan]

"The official figure does not include millions of Americans who have given up looking for work in the midst of the deepest economic downturn since the Great Depression, and millions more who are underemployed. Factoring in those numbers, the real unemployment rate is closer to 17.5 percent."

[bay_area_phan]

clout: I agree that Polanco would be a better option than Feliz; it's just that there are 5 or 6 others I'd target before Polanco.

I also agree that all these guys, including Figgins, come with a fairly high element of risk. But so does Feliz; he's 35 years old, his defensive skills & power are in steep decline, and he has 8 straight years of declining OPS. The difference between Pedro Feliz and all these other high-risk choices is that the other high-risk choices all have considerably more upside.

[jr]

If Pedro got the take sign on every first pitch the 3b problr=em would be solved.

[NEPP]

I would definitely look at Polanco...as a BACKUP.

As for a starter at 3B, I'd go for Beltre. Though I've heard he has some attitude issues in the past. I don't know how accurate that is though.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

jr: You might think that but, I'm not sure. I have felt for the entire season that he's just better swinging away. I think he could be the most feared pinch hitter around . . . . in the Mexican League. Feliz, unsurprisingly, had more 1 pitch at bats than he had any other number (96). He actually had a .333 average in those plate appearances and a .340 OBP. Not great, necessarily, but, not counterproductive. He had better numbers on the first pitch than he had on 1-0 or 2-0. His average was positively awful on 3-1 (.176), which is a hitter's dream against anyone other than Steve Carlton. In his defense, his OBP was much higher 3-1 than on the first pitch (obviously) but the numbers seem to confirm my feeling that he actually gets worse the more pitches he takes.

[NEPP]

And everyone is correct on the above unemployment discussion...there is a world of difference between the "official" 10.2% and actual unemployment that also includes those that have stopped looking, those that are underemployed, etc, etc.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Amend to say, he only saw 17 3-0 counts last season so, that hardly counts.

[NEPP]

I love Feliz as a person and a ballplayer. He plays hard and he doesn't take time off. He's a gamer and he seems like a great teammate. However, I think its time to go another way. I'll always love his clutch hitting in the 08 WS.

[Tray]

"If Pedro got the take sign on every first pitch the 3b problr=em would be solved."

Actually, when Pedro put the first pitch into play this year, he hits .333 with a .505 slugging percentage. But after taking a first strike, or fouling one off, Pedro becomes, cumulatively, a .225/.247/.331 hitter.

[Tray]

"He actually had a .333 average in those plate appearances and a .340 OBP."

Where does the difference between average and OBP come from? HBP's? Reaching on errors doesn't count towards OBP, right?

[Alby]

Half a dozen? That seems high.

Troy Glaus was a spotty defender before getting hurt, and it took him almost the whole season to get back to the big leagues when the original diagnosis was that he'd miss a month. Plus he was named in the Mitchell report. I love the bat, but they wouldn't live with the glove.

Atkins is terrible. He has declined every year since his rookie season.

If they wouldn't play Polanco at 3B several years ago, why would they today?

I still believe the Phillies will not accept anyone who can't play the position at least as well as Feliz. I can't see anyone but Beltre who fits that description.

Just to add to the fun, Beltre's agent is Boras.

[NEPP]

I dont get the Atkins love. He was brutal this year and has declined continually. Other than being Utley's buddy, he's got nothing going for him.

[Bob]

Never really warmed up to Myers like the other players; this is truly a likeable team. He seemed like the only one approaching a bad actor or divisive influence.

Still, he pulled it together and helped the team to the Series, another of those important cogs that ultimately did contribute in the end. Will never forget that classic AB against CC. Even if he was hanging on by a thread, it doesn't get much more clutch than that.

Thanks, Brett, and all the best. Hope it goes well whereever you end up.

[NEPP]

Yorvitt Torreabla was just released by the Rockies. He'd be a nice backup instead of Bakomania.

Stunningly, Manny Ramirez opted in to stay with the Dodgers because as Scott Boras put it "He enjoys playing in LA". Has nothing to do with the $20 million he'll now get.

[Tray]

Slightly surprising that Colorado would release their best postseason hitter. I'm imagining a Rockies equivalent of davthom bemoaning this move, asking what poor Yorvit needs to do to get respect.

[NEPP]

He's too expensive. He had a $4 million option for 2010 and that's too much for a backup catcher (Iannetta's their starter). Torreabla could probably be a starter somewhere since the bar is so low for catchers.

[clout]

Alby: Atkins declining OPS+, past 3 years:

112
97
67

Feliz OPS+ past 3 seasons:

81
80
80

Atkins is 29 and has a career OPS+ of 103.
Feliz is 34 and has a career OPS+ of 83.

Please explain why Feliz is the better player.

To me this is like Mike Lowell circa 2005. He too had been declining for 3 years. In fact, he was 3 years older than Atkins.

[MG]

I will say this about Myers - his 2008 season was one of the wildest single seasons I can remember by a Phils' player. Went from being one of the worst starters in the NL through June including a minor league demotion to come back and be one of the best 3-4 startes in the NL after the ASB. It was like watching two completely different guys.

It was one of the craziest turnarounds you will ever see any pitcher have in a season and Myers was a big reason why the 2008 Phils just beat out the Mets. My bet is that it largely gets relegated to the dustbin of history in coming years but it really was one of the subtle keys to what inevitably turned out to be a championship season.

[bay_area_phan]

Alby: I thought Glaus has always been considered a pretty good defensive player. Yeah, he's certainly risky. But there's a big upside there.

Tray: Errors, fielders choice, & freak plays (i.e., catcher's interference, dropped third strikes) don't count toward OBP. So the difference must be attributable to HBPs. Either that, or he drew some first-pitch walks.

[clout]

BAP: Glaus was once above average on defense, now he is league average. He is better defensively than Atkins.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Where does the difference between average and OBP come from? HBP's? Reaching on errors doesn't count towards OBP, right?

Posted by: Tray

I think he had a few HBP on the first pitch. Must've been mouthing off.

[Old Phan]

I'm surprised I haven't heard more about acquiring a back up catcher, or is everyone ok with Bako and Hoover.

[TBex]

On Hamels, I watched the 2008 World Series DVD. He does not have a 10 cent head, but he still need confidence. His face in those playoff starts looks intimidating. He knew he was going to beat you, this past season he hoped he would beat you. A subtle but very important difference, but potentially the most important difference in getting back and winning it all.

[Zudok]

I think the Phillies just got tired of Brett Myers, all the extras he brings.
That said, we owe him thanks. He was a big part of '07 and '08. His AB against Sabathia is legend.

[gm-carson]

I think it would be fitting to send Brett off in the classy WSBGMs style of a song parody. Today I select Goodbye Earl by the Dixie Chicks to put my twist on.

Goodbye Brett
The Phils thought to bring Brett back in,
They searched for reasons,
High and low.
Then they tipped their hats,
And said "Thank You Brett,
If we need your services, we'll let you know."

Well, the weeks went by and,
Fall turned to Winter,
And Winter faded into Spring.
And it turns out Brett was a missing person,
who nobody missed, that was the thing.

Brett had to leave.
Goodbye Brett!
We need a break.
Let him go to the Royals,
We'll pack him a lunch.
And stuff your suitcase trunk, Brett.
Well, how is KC?
Good? Don't you ever come back.
Goodbye Brett!

[thephaithful]

good riddance.

[WillyFromPhilly]

Myers never got any better after 2002. He became stagnant. Everyone thought he had more upside as a #1 or #2 starter, but it wasn't the case. He was too hittable and threw too many fat pitches.

[NEPP]

He had/has a great curveball. Once he lost his fastball, he lost any chance of being a top starter.

[wolf]

good work on the unemployment rate. the 10.2 is from the household survey, Current Population Survey, and only counts those in the labor force actively looking for jobs. it is how it has always been estimated. there are also other cps figures like MG used. but the best employment figure comes from the establishment survey's, Current Employment Statistics, payroll employment estimate. the 190,000 job loss for october. that is what you really want to look at/use.

as for myers, i'll never forget him out pitching mark prior in wrigley when prior just came up. he never really matched that again. oh and i'll never forget the whole beating his wife thing. so long, not good bye.

[High Hopes]

Any chance the phillies take a look at Kelvim Escobar or Ducsherer?

[clout]

WillyFromPhilly: "Myers never got any better after 2002."

Myers ERA+ by year:
2002 91
2003 90
2004 81
2005 118
2006 120
2007 107

[kuvasz]

Whomever the Phillies get to replace Feliz (one of my favorite Phillies), Brunlett, Bako, Stairs, and Meyers, those men must be chosen to fit in with the team we have now. In other words, no Manny Ramirezes, nor Gary Sheffield-types.

HOWEVER......None of the Phillies mentioned actually caused the loses in the World Series. What lost the Series was that the Yankees essentially had three #1 starters (Saba the Hut, Burnett, and Pettit), while the Phillies had one in Lee, AND....... the Phillies had no closer.

The Phillies were depending on Hamels to step up and instead he fell backward in an epic failure. Lidge just did not show up; regardless of having two strikes on Damon with two outs, he still failed with Teixeira and Alex Rodriguez, his modus operendi for the entire 2008 season.

I offer the following plan. Let Lidge know that if he does not revert back to 2008 affectiveness he will be traded by the end of spring training and let Hamels know that if he remains as inaffective as this year up to the July 31st 2010 trade deadline he will be moved to another team.

Maybe Amaro doesn't have to tell these players out-right, but he ought to recognize the potential serious problems for the team if these men do not return to their 2008 performance and have "arrangements" prepared for the worst.

When ever either of those men were on the mound this year I started calling them "box-of chocolate-pitchers," ala Forrest Gump, because you never knew what you were going to get.

I know trading an inconsistently performing Hamels removes a starting pitcher from the rotation but it is likely that the Phillies can get a "less-than-50%-winning" pitcher for a lot less money than Hamels.

Regardless of my affection for both Lidge and Hamels, baseball is not only a game it remains a business and sentimentality does not win games. My position is that the Phillies management met both players more than half-way throughout the season and it cost the team immensely; likely, it cost the Philadelphia Phillies the World Championship, so these men already have used up all their good-will chips with management (and many fans) over the last 180 days, especially over the last week.

I would hope that Jimmy Rollins matures as a real adult this off season and admits that he is no longer 23 years old and is now incapable of being a consistant lead-off hitter. If he is the "team" player he conceives he is, he will admit that he is hurting the team by getting on base less than 30% of the time as a lead off batter.

2009 was a great year. I have so many fond memories of it and I salute the efforts of these great athletes. They played baseball the way it ought to be played and they did their best.

That makes them winners in my book.

I leave you with this......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4Lhw4M-GTg&feature=related

[Alby]

Ah, Clout; can you live without bickering? I like to think you're a marriage counselor, is this is the way you vent.

You have no idea what Glaus' defense is like coming off a shoulder injury that kept him out of the big leagues all year. He started rehabbing in June. He wasn't brought up until September. That doesn't sound like a guy who's bouncing back all that well. And he had one terrible fielding season before the shoulder went completely. Way too dicey to rely on, IMO. If the scouting reports say otherwise, fine, but I don't think you have any, do you? If you do, I'd love the link.

I never said Feliz was better than Atkins. I said Atkins was terrible. Until he shows he's not a 67 OPS+ player, I stand by that. And I'd prefer he prove he's not that player somewhere else. If he does, then he's an option. Not now.

This is a championship team, not rec league. You don't hire question marks if you want to go back to the big stage.

Feliz' OPS+ the last three years: 81, 80, 80. Any guesses what it will be in '10, assuming he gets a job somewhere?

I'm sure they'd love Beltre. According to Martino in the Inky, they haven't decided yet on Feliz, so we'll know whether this is worth arguing about soon enough.

[Cliff]

Looks like ECON 101 has paid off for a lot of posters. We now know the definition of the unemployment rate... 12 times over.

Next up: marginal rate of return.

[clout]

Alby: You said Glaus was a bad defensive thirdbaseman. You may be right, after his injury, but you have no way of knowing that. If you're saying he was bad fielder in 2008, which is what you seem to be saying, you're flat out wrong.

Also, you seem to be saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, that since Feliz is a predictable producer and everyone else is a question mark, the Phillies should keep him despite his declining defense. Is that what you're saying?

[clout]

kuvasz: Let me get this straight. If Hamels is pitching the same as he did this year (ERA+ 99) on July 31 he should be dumped to another team for whatever we can get and the Phils should sign someone cheaper?

Interesting strategy.

[clout]

BTW, I stumbled onto another major league pitcher who somehow had a good career despite having a K/9 of below 5, which numerous posters say is impossible.

Bob Purkey had a career K/9 of 3.4 (even worse than Kendrick's). He pitched 13 years in the 50s and 60s, was a 3-time All Star, went 23-5 for the Reds in 1962 and finished with a career 128-115, 3.79, pitching mostly for bad teams.

Imagine that.

[vegas]

Imagine this: Lidge is having elbow surgery. Do players hide these injuries or is it the coaches? Like we needed him out there in the WS giving up three killer runs. Nice gamble.

[GBrettfan]

We also gambled by letting Ibanez and Eyre play injured, and by letting Utley play injured in 2008. I'd agree it's a bigger gamble with pitchers, whose role is so key while they are out on the mound alone. Lidge and Eyre did manage to pitch effectively at times in the postseason despite their injuries. I suppose we could have left one or both of them behind due to their injuries. It's akin to letting Pedro pitch sick - and Jamie Moyer pitch sick in the 2008 WS. I won't deny I'd wonder, too, what would have happened if Madson had been back out there that 9th inning of Game 4.

I would like the question asked of Charlie and Ruben, however - the question of how it is determined whether to sit or use a player who is injured/ill. I can't imagine there's a scientific answer to that. I'm guessing it's based on watching the player perform and judging whether he has enough to give you in spite of the illness or injury; in addition to speaking with the player and the trainer; and finally, judging whether a replacement player is likely to perform better or worse than the injured/sick player.

I just figure at this point, what's done is done. I'm not certain it would have made a difference if Madson had been shifted to 9th inning and someone else had pitched the 8th, etc.

Actually, it makes me feel more hopeful about Lidge's return next year to know that he will not be pitching injured. At the same time, I'm wondering how likely he is to remain healthy, as he's experienced a number of injuries in the past few years.

By the same token, I'd have liked the Phils to take Myers up on the 1-year, incentive-laden deal he supposedly expressed an interest in pursuing with them, since I am curious to see whether pitching with a healthy hip for the first time in a long time will improve his consistency. I'm not sad he's gone, and don't think the decision to let him go was wrong, but I do wonder about his future performance. I see him as a great project for Dave Duncan who might pitch very well against us next year.

[pb]

if you don't get the mlb network the AFL's future stars game is online at mlb.com/live Phillies prospect Dominic Brown is in RF batting 7th, the game is on now by the way

[len39]

Dominic Brown just ripped one, nice swing. Is he Werth's replacement if Werth reaches free agency after next season? Good job by Armaro not to deal him to Toronto. Cliff Lee trade keeps looking better and better.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Bob Purkey? Sounds like a game show host, not a pitcher from the 50's and 60's who won games and had a low k/bb 9IP. Bob Purkey?

[NEPP]

Odds are he's more like Raul's replacement as Taylor is older and more MLB ready. Both should be in our outfield at some point soon.

[Alby]

Nice try, Sparky. I asked you what you thought Feliz would post this coming year. If you're not going to answer questions, why should I?

The facts are what the facts are. The question is which way to place the bet. What I think doesn't really matter. What the FO thinks does, and we shall soon see what that is.

I don't know much about defensive stats, but by whatever that number is that Baseball Reference uses, Feliz is about 4.9 runs above average a year over his career, and Glaus is about 1.3. If you prefer older metrics, his fielding percentage is about .10 higher for his career, too.

So what have you found out about Glaus? For what it's worth, the guy at Viva El Birdos! says he was playing good defense (but not hitting) during the games he played in September. If you take a risk like this, isn't a viable plan B a must?

[Brett]

Hell no to Glaus. He is injured more often than Chipper. My preference for 3rd base (in order preferred):

Chone Figgins
Adrian Beltre
Pedro Feliz

1. Figgins would be the best pickup. The Phils would have a more prototypical leadoff guy who'd set the table nicely for the heart of the lineup and disperse more speed throughout the lineup (by pushing Victorino or Rollins into the 7 spot). This could also help turn the lineup over more frequently. The lineup would be better than the Yankees was this year. Apparently he is an upgrade defensively as well. I hope that finances don't block this signing.

2. Adrian Beltre seems to be the more likely acquisition. He is younger than Feliz, relatively same batter with more pop, and (somehow) a defensive upgrade as well. Hopefully he grounds into less double-plays than Happy.

3. Pete Happy. He's got a great glove--it's hard to believe both those guys are defensive upgrades over him, as I haven't seen them play too much--but his bat is below average and it hurts the bottom of the lineup. Despite this, the Phillies have the best offense in the NL and defense is a premium in the NL. He should come relatively cheap considering the crop of FA 3rd basemen this offseason and I'm pretty sure he'd love to return to this elite team (possibly at a discount).

All this being said, if the money it requires to upgrade at 3rd inhibits the Phils ability to upgrade either bullpen or bench, stick with Happy.