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Tuesday, June 22, 2010


From the least thread:

****They will not be fun if Jamie Moyer makes the Hall of Fame with 300 wins over 27 seasons and a 4.35 ERA. ****

Come on now...I think that'd be pretty fun.

***Koufax was a journeyman for 6 years***

That's a bit of a distortion, don't you think? He was a "journeyman" because his ass of a manager never gave him a shot at the rotation. As soon as he was forced too, he showed he was the best pitcher in the history of baseball. Do we need to break out the stats of his run of dominance?

On Blyleven: Maybe if he'd stop crying and whining about not being in the HoF, they'd actually elect him. You can't have an interview with him without him crying about it and all the call-ins and the hosts fawning over the terrible injustice. Shut up already.

As for the 40 man roster issue: there's dead weight on the Quintin Berry and Drew Naylor. It wouldn't be a major issue to free up some spots if need be.

"he showed he was the best pitcher in the history of baseball."

NEPP, in the future, please include phrases or acronyms in posts similar to the one above like "IMO" or "IMHO" or "in my opinion".

As the statement I quoted is debatable it will save everyone a lot of grief.

Thanks in advance.

I missed the games over the weekend because I was out of town.

What did Matieson look like?

What did the FO/mgmt see that convinced them he should be DFA'd?

Do they now think he will never be able to get out MLB hitters?

"****They will not be fun if Jamie Moyer makes the Hall of Fame with 300 wins over 27 seasons and a 4.35 ERA. ****

Come on now...I think that'd be pretty fun"

I think arguably Jamie Moyer isn't even getting into the HoF with 300 wins. Right now it's seen as an unattainable goal, so everyone says, "Oh, he needs 300 wins to get into the HoF." What they really mean is he has no shot.

I think some will vote for him if he gets 300 wins, but all the people necessary? That's debatable. I think some folks will look at his peripherals and refuse to vote for him regardless of his wins.

I do like Jamie, BTW, just not so sure about him and the HoF.

Heather, I dont think he ever gets voted in...regardless of how many wins he gets. If he does push 280-300, then there's an outside shot that he gets a Veteran's Committee nod in a few decades...more as a nod to his contributions to the game rather than his overall performance (think Rizzuto).

to awh: I agree, I should clarify that it is a IMHO, he showed he was the best pitcher in history during that peak.

Final 5 seasons:

176 GS, 100 CG, 33 SHO, 111-34, 1.95 ERA, 1377 IP, 1444 SO, 316 BB, 0.926 WHIP

All while playing with a shoulder that hurt so much that he couldn't even throw bullpen sessions between starts or raise his arm above his head (at least in the final 3 years). He retired at Age 30 with a completely shot arm. I wonder what modern medicine would have done for him had it been available.

NEPP, how Koufax's shoulder felt is irrelevant to any evaluation of his pitching effectiveness. If you want to give him kudos for being tough, then go right ahead. I just don't think it ought to affect how one judges his performance.

NEPP: The more I think about it, the more I agree with you. The 300 wins thing is just a smokescreen.

Oh, and NEPP, take a look at this 5 year period:

192 GS, 170 CG, 41 SHO, 147 - 67, 1,779 IP, 1291 K, 334 BB, .936 WHIP

Guess who?

I'm not trying to make a rational argument...just to stand in awe of a great career peak. I imagine that watching Koufax pitch during that peak would have been like watching Pedro in the late 90s...simply unhittable, unstoppable.

Oops, forgot to post the ERA: 1.50

i don't think ruiz actually had a concussion per se.

Oh, and NEPP, if that wasn't enough, the next 5 years he did this:

169 GS, 150 CG, 33 SHO, 118 - 76, 1.69 ERA, 1,648.2 IP, 928 K, 327 BB, .970 WHIP

Walter Johnson?

Yep, it was Walter.

Different era, and also different ballparks.

Koufax pitched in one of the more extreme pitcher's parks in MLB at the time, and is still a pitcher's park today.

I don't know much about Griffith Stadium in DC, but I'll see what I can find out.

NEPP, this is not to denigrate Koufax, who was tremendous and deserves to be in the HOF, I just think it's open to debate.

Oh, also, Johnson pitched in the deadball era.

made it "head injury."

Pedro's 7-year stretch between 1997-2003 is up there with anyone's, including Koufax. Again, Koufax was pitching in an extreme pitcher's park in the best era in modern baseball for pitching. In 1966, when Koufax had a 1.73 ERA, the average number of Runs scored per game was 7.97.

In 2000, when Pedro had a 1.74 ERA (pitching at Fenway Park), the average Runs per game was 10.28.

And NEPP, take a look at Bob Gibson's peak years from '65 - '69. Pretty dominant too, and Gibson started out that run pitching in Sportman's Park, which was considerably worse for pitchers than in Dodger Stadium.

NEPP: My memory is that Koufax had to be kept on the ML roster to protect him because he was one of the first "bonus babies". I don't remember the exact rules, but he was very young and wild, and didn't get to develop in the minors. The Dodgers always had a great pitching staff, so you can't blame the manager for not running him out there when he was that young and wild.

Also, the Coliseum was not a pitchers park for LHP. I think the left field line was 260 FT.

Jack, thanks for the support.

Multi year park factors:

Dodger Stadium 91

Sportmans Park 110
Busch II 99

Griffith Stadium 99

Again, not to denigrate Koufax, I'm just not sure that 5 year period qualifies him as the best ever.

Take a look at this 6-year stretch by Pud Galvin:

371 GS, 350 CG, 36 SHO, 205 - 160, 2.51 ERA, 3,263.2 IP, 1210 K, 262 BB, 1.115 WHIP

OT: Does postseason play factor into service time for a player heading into arb?

And Christy Mathewson had a stretch one could argue was a dominant as Koufax's.

Also, it may very well be that the "best" pitcher in MLB history wound up playing the outfield for the New York Yankees. From 1915 - 1918 the Babe was pretty good in Fenway.

****NEPP, this is not to denigrate Koufax, who was tremendous and deserves to be in the HOF, I just think it's open to debate.****

I agree.

****Pedro's 7-year stretch between 1997-2003 is up there with anyone's, including Koufax.****

I agree on this as well. We had this debate back on 2008 I believe where I was pushing that very argument. The only difference between the two is GS and IP...and Koufax destroyed him in both due to it being a different era. Otherwise, Pedro's run was pretty much the equal of Sandy's.

On the Babe thing, I seem to remember a funny stat that showed that Babe pretty much owned Johnson when they faced off head to was something ridiculous like a 9-1 record when the starters were Babe vs. Walter.

****OT: Does postseason play factor into service time for a player heading into arb? ****


Just read zolecki's explanation of Mathieson's DFA/optional waiver situation. Learn something new every day.

goody, the Coliseum is irrelevant to NEPP's opinion. The years he referenced were from '62 - '66, when the Dodgers were firmly ensconced in Dodger Stadium.

phaithful, how about a link?

awh: Thanks. As usual, I posted from memory before checking the facts.

Griffith Stadium in Washington is legendary for the prodigious power it took to clear its walls. It was over 400' down the left field line and had a strange notch in right-center that was 457' at it's deepest (equal to left center at Forbes Field). It had a short right field but, a 30' high wall. I never saw it - was razed before I was born - but it was always mentioned in old baseball books as a touchstone for demonstrating the prowess of hitters like Ruth, Mantle and DiMaggio. Mantle hit one out of the stadium that was estimated at 565'. Allegedly, Josh Gibson of the Homestead Grays had done it before Mantle. Another funny thing I remember, which would have worked against the Big Train is the team supposedly graded hte first baseline downhill to help Washington's hitters beat out singles on the grass.

Hugh, thanks for the info on Griffith.

Sounds like it was a big park without a lot of HR's. Lotsa triples, maybe.

whoops - meant to link but forgot:
MAthieson's DFA/optioned waiver explained

I was a boy when Koufax pitched and I really hated the Dodgers because they were the rave team of the NL. We were constantly being bombarded about howgood Koufax and Don Drysdale was. Maury Wills and his stolen bases were all the rage. All the East Coast beat writers who loved the Dodgers from their Brooklyn days, joined forces with the West Coast media machine to brainwash the nation into loving Dodger blue. I hated it.

In hindsight, as I revisit that era from time to time, I have come to really appreciated how great Sandy Koufax was. I don't think Pedro's Bosox years have that same mystique, IMHO.

In the case of the Phillies, no news is most often bad news.

Interesting stuff phaithful. I wonder how many guys have had as long a gap between ml debut and their next call-up.

Harold REynolds on MLB Network said that he has been watching Rollins in Clearwater, and thinks that he still is showing signs of a calf strain. Cited that he looked to be favoring all of his movements to one side.

If I remember right, Koufax cemented his elite status with the media by refusing to pitch in a World Series because the game fell on a religous holiday.
He was the best for a while, HoF deservedly for sure.
Best ever- I don't know.

I havn't been present for the last few threads. Did any of the writers offer an opinion on how Rollins looked in the rehab games? Meaning, was he operating at full speed and in his normal fluid manner?

Dave - Yeah. Chooch has taken a beating this season already behind the plate. Already mentioned that his shoulder/knee have been bothering him before he got hit in the head. I have a feeling he is going to go on the 15-day DL shortly.

Heh. Phaithful answered my question while I was writing it. I'd rather not bring up a still hampered Rollins and risk further injury. We made that mistake already. The nature of the way he plays the game makes it even more important that he is fully recovered, IMO.

Pedro's stretch of dominance is still underappreciated, IMO.

At the height of the steroid era, when power-hitters were putting up the most ridiculous offensive numbers the game will likely ever see, Pedro put up some absolutely unbelievable numbers. He holds the modern record for best ERA+ in a single season (in 2000 it was 291). From 1997 - 2003, his average season was:

17-5, 201 IP, 252 Ks (11.3/9IP), 2.20 ERA, .940 WHIP, 5.59 K/BB, and a 213 ERA+.

Those numbers stack up against anyone in the history of baseball.

he won't be "fully" recovered til the offseason. he needs months of rest. that injury will recur at some point. that's what happens with them with a ton of rest. more rest than the season gives.

Koufax was ONE of the best ever. Is there really a debate about that?
I saw him itch twice at Connie Mack. The Phils knocked him out early (shocking! How dare they!)and he shut them out them out the 2nd time with one of those Dice-K type performances.

MG: Luckily, Dane Sardinha waits in the wings. It's comforting to have such depth, esp. at the Catching position. Also, is it possible there's anyone named "Dane" on the face of this planet that I'm not destined to revile?

RE: Koufax

He enjoyed the benefit of leaving the game when he was still a dominant player, much like Jim Brown in the NFL. We can only speculate on how much longer he would have been able to perform at such a high level, whereas we've seen other great pitchers (Carlton, Pedro, et. al.) get old while they're still playing.

Did you guys see Rosenthal's piece on Quick Pitch today about the Yankees bench woes?

Even a team with an exorbitant payroll has trouble fielding decent back-ups. Maybe it's just hard to find good bench players.

Pedro in his prime is the best pitcher I've ever seen pitch. That includes Maddux, Randy Johnson, Schilling, Lincecum, Halladay and any of the other top pitchers over the last 25 years.

You didn't hit Pedro in his prime, you prayed for defensive mistakes and/or rain delays to take him out.

chrisvt: everytime someone posts Pedro's numbers, i always have to double check, even tho everytime i know they're right. just mindboggling.

gsl: i am actualy to a point where i think Rollins needs to just suck it up and play less than 100%. I am pretty sure he isn't risking a more serious injury by playing on it, just re-aggravating. Even jroll on one leg is going to help this team.

Dave - This team does have a better winning pct when Chooch is behind the plate but they also have played significant portions of the past few seasons (especially '08) where he was riding the pine for a good part of it.

Since Chooch came back on May 17t after missing a few games, his line is .188/.300/.232 with a measly 3 XHB in 69 ABs. Hard to tell if he is really hurt or if he is entering his annual summer swoon where he does next to nothing offensively except take some BBs. When he goes into these swoons (he has every year since '07 for at least 4 weeks), he is a sub .200 AVG/.550 OPS guy. Even Schneider can give them more offense than that meagre output.

MG: I know you're not as enamored of Chooch's defensive/pitch calling abilities as some of us, but I think the lack thereof will hurt the Phils. We've already seen Schneider unable to block pretty much anything in the dirt. He may well end up hitting better than Chooch would in this portion of the season, but that's a secondary concern to me. Another thing to remember is that Schneider has also been on the DL already this season. The specter of Dane Sardinha ... it haunts me. Who ever thought I'd be so concerned w/ the health of Paul Hoover?

Greg Maddux is the only pitcher I've ever seen in person who came close to Pedro at his best. Somehow, though, watching a guy dominate with finesse and location just isn't as exciting as watching him do it with a 97 MPH fastball, finesse, and location. Maddux had a pretty impressive stretch himself from '92 - '99, but the numbers aren't quite like Pedro's.

He did have back to back seasons (94-95) where he went a combined 35-8 (.814 winning %), 1.60 ERA (266 ERA+), .853 WHIP, 20 CGs and a 6.24 K/BB ratio. That's pretty ridculous stuff; too bad it was during the 2 strike-shortened seasons.

With Maddux you almost always felt that you COULD hit him at some point, he just never gave in and let you. With Pedro, it always felt like the opposing team was helpless to do anything against him.

Not to take anything whatsoever away from Greg. He was ridiculously great for a long time.

NEPP - I think that had a lot to do with the fact that he didn't throw hard. Almost all of the greatest pitchers of the last several decades had at least the reputation of being a hard thrower. Maddux, OTOH, would just sit comfortably at 88-90 MPH with his fastball and make hitters look silly.

The perception of domination is different with a pitcher like that.

Don't the Phils make announcements about roster moves around this time of day?

Jimmie or Chooch updates?

I agree on the perception of it. Watching Maddux crush you with that 90 mph fastball was just damn frustrating...with Pedro, you kinda just stood in awe of his greatness.

Both roads ended up at the same destination though.

I saw Lefty in his prime - during that yr where the Phils won 50 or 60 games...

Talk about dominance...

Best in the game though? Probably not

The Phillies have announced Darren Daulton will be added to the team Wall of Fame on 6 August. Presumably this occasion has been timed so to give Dutch maximum opportunity to enjoy his honor before the world ends in 2012.

A couple Phils-related pieces from Buster Olney's blog this morning:

• Rival teams continue to wait for a signal from Mariners GM Jack Zduriencik that he's ready to deal Cliff Lee. "They've won four straight, and maybe that'll slow down the process," one GM said. Either way, it's pretty clear that Zduriencik will get good prospects in return for Lee, young players that he can build with.

"At the end of the day, it's going to be a win for the Mariners, because they're going to get better players than they gave up for Lee (in the deal with the Phillies). If they get [Twins catching prospect Wilson] Ramos, you ask yourself -- could they trade Phillippe Aumont for Ramos? The answer is, no way. The Mariners haven't won, but this trade will turn out to be a good thing for them."

5. A Dodgers' Rule 5 pick indicated he's not hurt, within this Dylan Hernandez notebook. From the piece:

If Carlos Monasterios is hurt, it's news to him.

Monasterios was put on the disabled list Saturday because of a blister and split nail on his pitching hand.

How's the blister?

"It doesn't affect me," Monasterios said.

What about the nail?

"There's nothing wrong with the nail," he said.

Monasterios was charged with 10 runs in the 6 2/3 innings he pitched over his last two starts. Because he was a Rule 5 draft pick, the Dodgers couldn't send him to the minor leagues without risking losing him to his former team, the Philadelphia Phillies.

Baseball rules prevent teams from stashing healthy players on the disabled list, but [Joe] Torre defended the move.

"Is it there or is it not?" Torre asked, referring to the blister. "It's not like I'm making up something. It's there."

Shot in the dark: Nothing will be done with Monasterios whatsoever...other than having some Dodgers people rip him a new one.

Teams do it all the time.

"At the end of the day, it's going to be a win for the Mariners, because they're going to get better players than they gave up for Lee (in the deal with the Phillies)."

This is a damning inditement of Amaro's ineptitude in the whole Lee saga. He controlled an asset for a longer period of time and somehow got a fair amount less of value in return. Management Blunder 101.

I'm shocked that Buster Olney would rip the Phillies.

"MG: I know you're not as enamored of Chooch's defensive/pitch calling abilities as some of us, but I think the lack thereof will hurt the Phils."

I do think Chooch is a good defensive catcher. The deference is in his ability to block pitches between Schneider has already been pretty notable this season. On Sat., Schneider struggled to block a few pitches that I think Chooch would have smothered. Cost them on the scoreboard in the 1st inning. Even some of the starters have had trouble working with Schneider the first few times around.

Still you could have Johnny Bench behind the plate and you can't afford to start a C 4-5/week who is in a sub .200 AVG/.550 OPS funk. That is just an automatic out. Especially right now with the way the offense has struggled.

Yeah they will miss Chooch because they don't have another quality backup but if he goes on the DL this team has won before and they easily can do so again.

Losing JRoll has been much more problematic because the dropoff between his replacements (Castro/Valdez) has been so notable offensivley and defensively. Phils have the worst combo at SS right now in the NL.

"Losing JRoll has been much more problematic because the dropoff between his replacements (Castro/Valdez) has been so notable offensively and defensively."

No question about that. It was obvious from the moment Rollins' injury was first announced that this was going to be a rough year at best for the Phillies at SS.

JRoll is the Captain of the team, he is the sparkplug, the guy that stands up, the guy that tells it how it is. People ripped his selection for MVP a couple years ago but alot more came into it than just his stats (which were ridiculous for a SS).

At first I was OK with the Lee trade in a lot of ways...not happy with it, not necessarily in agreement that it was the right move, but I understood the logic behind the trade.

I guess my opinion has changed over the last several months, cause I still get the logic behind it but it seems like it was so poorly executed that it really can't be defended anymore. The fact that the M's are likely to recoup more for him than they gave up, for only 1/2 the season, burns me up.

Rube bungled this one badly.

MG has some of the best spelling errors even in his posts. They almost always completely change the context of what he is trying to say.

Also, we need to wait and see what the Mariners get for Lee before we starting issuing proclamations about moving pieces.

Also, we need to wait to see how the guys we got in return end up. I know many of you don't have that kind of patience though.

TTI - If, as has been rumored, the Yanks were willing to trade Montero (and others) for Lee in the offseason, then Rube did not get the best value possible back regardless of how the prospects turn out. Montero's a top 5 prospect right now, and even if you don't want to keep him long-term you can flip him for a valuable piece during this season. You can't do that with Gillies, Aumont, or Ramirez.

And if the Yanks were willing to trade their best prospect for him, how come they got nowhere near the M's best prospects?

since lee was part of the phillies who were built to win now, i donot think trading away an important cog in the name of the pharm system was a prudent move. The pieces we got in return are not part of the built to win now ... but maybe a built to win later.

Chris - good point

Here’s a thought I am throwing out there & will be probably mauled by some of the BL faithful:

Do you think there was a reason that only Toronto and Seattle were involved? I am surprised a little that Baltimore was not either.

Maybe that is why NYY were excluded.

NEPP: "I'm not trying to make a rational argument."

For anyone who has ever read even one of your posts, that goes without saying.

If st is correct in his assertion the the Rollins injury will nag all year regardless then I can see bringing him up and hoping for the best. However, if the injury would be healed or even more stable with more time off, then I think it is a mistake to bring him up because of panic about the standings in June.

I'd rather lose two weeks of Rollins now then have two weeks of Rollins now and lose him for the rest of the season. The 2 weeks is just an example, not a timetable that I have set for his recovery.

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