Comments

[Ben]

Not good

[holu mackerel]

it ain't lookin' good sports phans

[Kool Earl]

Not for me. The Phils will hang in there and will be back full strength to tear it up down the stretch.

[dlhunter]

ha, ha, ha...(sobs)

[holy mackerel]

Do you think Seattle mgt will give Amaro a discount for Lopez because we gave them a Cy Young pitcher for a bag of beans?

[dlhunter]

Kool Earl: the problem being, they won't be "back full strength" "down the stretch". Utley's out for 2 months.

[J. Weitzel]

And Chooch isn't progressing. And Ibanez's hot streak never seems to come. And Schneider is hurt. And Brad Lidge ...

[The Truth Injection]

dlhunter: So the season ends September 1st?

[RSB]

*sigh* when are players gonna learn not to slide head first...

[Meyer]

Dear Pat, Just one more ancient Mariner, O, or BJ to perk up this team before August 1st.

[Iceman]

Old Phan (from the game thread):

"people need to be a little patient at this point."

Practical advice, but look at the people you're talking to. They trash the team they root for on a daily basis and declared the season over in early June when the Phils were 3.5 games back BEFORE the Utley/Polanco injuries.

The top/heart of the order absolutely has to step it up and has failed miserably to do so in these first few games after the Polanco/Utley injuries. But being resigned to the fate that they won't do it three games into the bottom of the lineup turning into a massive four batter black-hole is just silly. It would almost be like crying for an entire season for a pitcher to retire, only to see him come back the next season and be the 2nd or 3rd best pitcher on the team.

Some fans are just looking for a reason to give up. If hopelessness and despair is your thing, go be a Cubs fan and cry with them. If this team had the lack of guts of some of the Phans on BL, we'd still be talking about getting over the 'winning the NL East' hump.

[dlhunter]

@The Truth Injection

No, I think with Dobbs/Castro at third it'll probably end in the middle of August.

[jerry]

I don't think I've ever seen a swing like that one by Howard. Wow. He must decide in the dugout which pitches at which to swing ("I'll spit on my gloves after 2 and 3, swing at 1, 3 and 4, and then walk away shaking my head.")

[Heather]

From the previous thread:

This is going to come out snarky, but I keep reading on here variation of "You just need to be patient, the Phils get X back soon, Y will be the true test, that is when they light it up."

I mean, how many articles writen by the guy who writes Beerleaguer itself in the past few weeks have said something along the lines of "This is nearly a must win for the Phils."

Then when the Phils don't win it, I get to hear why it wasn't really a must win and we can't give up the faith, because the Phils will soon have X back, and the true test will be Y.

It's a pattern and it ruins the credibility of those who constantly shift X and Y to suit the circumstances to paint things in a positive light for the team.

This reminds me of a Futurama quote:

Fry: "You can't give up hope just because it's hopeless. You have to hope even harder, cover your ears, and go 'blah blah blah blah blah!'

[gladly]

I was really hoping that when I clicked that button, it would show me the Bruntlett picture. I'll take comfort that we're not ready to take it to THAT level of panic yet.

[Jack]

That Ibanez hot streak is sure to come any day now.

Meanwhile, in totally unrelated news, Dom Brown is the consensus #1 prospect in baseball and is hitting .429 since his promotion to AAA.

[denny b.]

I am not trashing the Phils any more or any less then many of the long-time posters here do.

Weitzel doesn't post much, but he hasn't been particularly positive either with the 2010 edition of the Fightens. I am sure the write-up on this baby won't be good either. Or it will be very "to the point" (which "Panic" says very well).

I just deal in what I see and hear from this team and this organization. And a lot of it in 2010 has not been particularly positive. Should I lie and say things are good and there is no need to worry and that its all bunnies and rainbows? No. The truth is (as LA also said on the postgame show) this offense simply not gotten it done most of the year. Injuries or not, this has not been a good offensive team. Some high priced players are not earning their money. Those aren't opinions. Those are facts. Continually scoring 3 or fewer runs and continually wasting good starts from the pitchers, are also facts.

Hamels is 6-7. With an ERA in the low 4's. That is not the stuff of a "great" major league starter. He was a .500 pitcher last year too. 1 1/2 years is a pretty good sample size. Cole is a slightly above average starting pitcher right now in the majors. That's about it. He's capable of throwing a gem every-now-and-then, but tonight's performance is pretty much par for the course now. He is another one that is not exactly earning the paycheck he receives. You can find a lot of guys out there to be 6-7 with a low 4 ERA and not have to pay them the huge $$$ Cole is getting. Same deal with Blanton. Another average major league starter (who has pitched like a very poor major league starter most of the year). But he's not paid like that. He's being compensated very well to be average.

That being said, the starting pitching is not the issue with this team. Why in the holy hell is Ruben wasting his time scouting the Dan Haren's of the world? Doesn't that just prove what a collosal blunder he made with Lee, if he is already looking for another high dollar starter?

Great we go out and overpay and give up too much for a Dan Haren. Who is going to hit the baseball? Who is going to catch the baseball? Who is going to get a big hit in the clutch? Those are the issues with this team. And screwing around trying to find another starter does not solve any of those issues. Its just wasting time and money, when the FO should be doing everything they can to improve the offense on this team (everyday lineup and bench). That is the real reason the Phils are in 3rd place and are playing .500 baseball since the first week of the season.

[phlipper]

Heather, it is plainly obvious that there are no "must wins" at this point in the season.

When people are using it now, it is essentially a figure of speech.

And really, Heather, you need to lighten up a bit. The only poster I've read that is as consistently bashing what is essentially a very good team that is fully in contention is BAP - and he's only serious about half the time. I might suggest that if you hate the team as much as seems evidenced in your posts, you try rooting for the Yankees?

[Iceman]

Heather- it's clear you want to root for a loser. You've been begging for it for weeks now. You want to give up faith. May I suggest becoming either a Pirates or a Cubs fan?

And your comment (in the game thread) about not being allowed to trash Ibanez on BL is just bizarre. You do realize 90% of comments regarding Ibanez are negative, right? There are about four glass-half-full people that post on BL. They are outnumbered by about 200 people like yourself that just want to give up and be miserable. Deal with the four people.

[Heather]

That bit of negativity aside, I am looking forward to Moyer's start tomorrow. Every time he comes out and starts a game, he is spitting in the eye of everyone who said he couldn't do it. Him taking the hill tied as the Phils winningest pitcher is downright awe inspiring.

[Heather]

Great we go out and overpay and give up too much for a Dan Haren. Who is going to hit the baseball?

Denny, it's actually a dual pronged attack. Haren is hitting in the .400s at last count. So we're actually scouting him as a hitter and not a pitcher.

That being said, I agree with the gist of your post.

[dlhunter]

But let's look at the bright side.

As of right now, Robert Person is still not on our roster.

[Meyer]

Jamie certainly isn't a quitter. He was too old so many years ago he can't remember.

[BobbyD]

Let's not forget Hamels has NEVER had a GREAT regular season.

[Heather]

Guys, I'm not begging for a loser. The Phils win, I'm not sour. I would much rather they be riding a 4 game winning strek. But I don't see any point in putting on my rose colored glasses either and pretending that we're a lock to get our season back on track. Sure, that's a possibility. But we're kidding ourselves if we think that's the only option or even the likeliest option.

Sorry if you don't like that. If the Phils magically turn this all around and get to the World Series again, I'll buy you all a 6 pack of your choice. Until then, I'm bracing myself for the likeliest case scenario.

[Jack]

denny b: FWIW, Cole is not getting "huge" money. He's getting paid less than Blanton, and about the same as Moyer this year. Also less than Ibanez, and almost every other starting position player.

I agree Hamels has been less than he could be, but it would actually be very hard to find a pitcher of his quality available for 6.5 million, which is what he's making this year.

[GBrettfan]

I don't know. I think as fans we're allowed to alternate hope and despair. Isn't the point of being a fan to be passionate, not clinical? I try to inject a note of optimism before and during games, but sometimes I just want to vent my frustration. I've heard lots of fans say negative things while watching a game, not just BL'ers.

[denny b.]

I don't see many of the posts here being all that "negative".

I just see a lot of realistic and truthful posts by fans who aren't pleased with what they are watching.

I am amazed this team is still 5 games over .500, considering everything. I am not quite sure how they have done it.

But the "its not time to panic" and "we need to be patient" stuff is for the birds. Its July 1st. When are some of these guys going to start producing? August 1st? September 1st? 2011? When?

Ibanez has been hitting in the high .230's to mid .240's with no power for a long time now. Vic has been in the .250's for over a month now. The bench has sucked for 2 years now. When do all of these things change? Tomorrow? Next week? What if they don't?

Lets face facts...This team is literally falling apart physically almost by the day. They have a lot of older guys, who look old and play old most of the time. They have several players now on the 25 man roster, who have no business in the major leagues with any team. They have very little money flexibility and very few high minor prospects anybody would want. They are now stuck with some bad contracts and some players not coming close to earning the money on those contracts. They have been ravaged by injuries and don't have much they can do to combat it (unless you count playing Greg Dobbs everyday at 3B and Brian Schneider everyday at C).

They have lost 2 of their 4 best hitters. They don't have their catcher. They truthfully don't have Rollins (he either can't run or is afraid to). They don't have their best reliever from last year. They don't have their swing-man reliever. They don't have their 2nd best starter from last year.

That's not being negative or pessimistic. Those are facts.

How do they stay in contention in the 2nd half? Halladay has to be special. Hamels has to become more then a average major league starter again. Blanton has to get his ERA under 5.00. Lidge, Contreras, Romero, Durbin and Madson have to be nails in the pen. Howard has to have a MVP-like 2nd half. Ibanez has to have a real "hot streak" at some point. They have to get Polly back and hitting again. Vic and Rollins have to get back to being the energizers they have been in the past few years. Someone from outside the organization is going to have to be brought in and they will need to contribute in a big way at either 2B or 3B. And they need to start playing smarter more fundamentally sound ball against both the good teams and the bad teams.

Can they do all of those things? Most of those things those players have done in the past and many of them have done it here. Its not asking the impossible. But it might take all of those things if this team is to survive. Above everything, its going to take some good health and some good luck...which is something that has been in short supply in 2010.

[Heather]

Hamels seems to be averaging around 4 WAR per year for the last 3 years so I don't think he's overpaid. That's ok for a SP at 6.5 mil.

I think the problem is certain people have been proclaiming Cole is on his way to being a stud Ace and it hasn't worked out like that.

I think it's just the disapointment of diminished expectations...right now it's looking like he's settling in to be a middle of the order guy on a contending team...and that's ok. But that's not really what people were expecting from him so we're disappointed.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I think my last post got flushed.

I love the panic button post. I'm not panicking. I've been pessimistic ever since the Phils were the pre-season favorite to win the pennant. I'm not sure how one can be a Phillies fan and not consider that the kiss of death. With that said, I'm going to keep watching just in case tehy pull it out.

[Heather]

Denny B: Thank you for so eloquently summarizing exactly how it is I feel.

[Kool Earl]

I will sneer at all you whining wallies and sniveling curs when the Phillies clinch the NL East.

[Heather]

"They have a lot of older guys, who look old and play old most of the time."

On a slightly related note, I get the MLB extra innings package, and I am sick and tired of every broadcaster from every team the Phils play saying, "Gee, Ibanez's bat sure has slown down. He's cheating to try to catch up to those fastballs" or variations thereof.

And I'm not talking about one or two, but it seems like literally almost every frickin team the Phils have played this year.

[GTown_Dave]

Amen to what GBrettfan posted, & for posters not afraid to be "vocal" about their team. Dispassionate analysis has its place, but it's disheartening to find some supposed fans are only able to view baseball clinically, like a dead butterfly pinned to a board.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Earl - I will buy the first round when that happens. I was going to guess that they'll need to make up that rain out in Colorado to finally clinch hte division when I saw this http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hWJfIm2UXOwoFXhZksMrr0dPnfbQD9GKO8NO0
which says they are going to make that game up 9/2 when they return from a 6 game west coast trip. so, mark your calendars . . .

[Brian]

How many times in '07 was the season over? This can be overcome. Actually it seems to me that more than a few teams have made a World Series essentially without their best player. Astros without Jeff Bagwell, White Sox without Frank Thomas. There'll also be a high profile trade at the deadline which will improve the team.

[DMarley]

Everybody take a deep breath. I just got off a conference call with Scott Proefrock and the Phanatic and they both assured me the team will be fine.

Looking forward to watching our stopper take the hill tomorrow night.

[Iceman]

GBrettfan- you're right that emotions tend to vacillate from one end of the spectrum to the other with sports fans. And JW provides a great forum for both and drives the discussion well. Often he's the lone voice of reason. And truthfully, this might be the right time to push the panic button- personally, I'd give it to the end of the series to see if they're still playing like this.

But emotions don't really vacillate with the vast majority of commenters here. It's always this doom and gloom crap, even when things are going well, and when the Phils are ACTUALLY sucking, it gets incredibly frustrating and annoying to read. Especially the snarky "I told you so" crap, like they're happy they predicted the team they supposedly root for is going in the tank.

And honestly- and I may be the last person on BL that still feels this way- I think this team deserves the benefit of the doubt until officially proven otherwise, given the past three seasons of winning. They have a track record of getting it done somehow, even though at times they look like they couldn't beat the Iron Pigs. It is certainly an uphill battle this year, but they overcame having the worst closer in the league last year to get to the World Series and a 7 game deficit with three weeks left in the season to win the division.

It looks bleak, but it's not over. I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt, and you'd think most Phans would, too, after all the winning they've done recently. But some people just want to root for a loser and be miserable. As a result, I expect the calls for Moyer and Ibanez to be DFAed, Cholly's firing, etc. etc., to start back up anytime now.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

DAve - awesome analogy. The clinical fans don't bother me as much as Iceman's d-baggery toward every BL b!tcher. GEt over it - Phillies fans b!tch, often irrationally. It's like he's the "team manager" and someday they're going to give him his own uniform and let him watch the game from teh dugout.

I can't bring myself to go back and read the game thread. Why ruin a 4-pack of black & tan? I take it Cole Hamels is now as suck-ass as Halladay was after that 8 inning 4 run outing. Hamels struggled a bit early. but, he didn't lose the game. The middle of the lineup did squat tonight. Anyone else think it's ironic that the AAA guys that populate the lineup, and are the obvious focus of our collective fears, are the only guys knocking in runs? Did Wilson Valdez really hit another home run tonight? He did - I actually saw it with my own eyes. Not a NASA fraud like htat moon landing, and his last 3 homers.

When Dane Sardinha and Wilson Valdez is hte offense, and Brian Schneider getting hurt is like a sick joke, you're probably boned.

Oh, and how about Gregg - I just got back from AAA (and eventual retirement) because 2 guys got hurt, so don't blame me when I get to first on a throwing error but don't advance to 2d on teh throw home - Dobbs? I'm so glad he's back on the team and still has his head firmly stuck in his a$$

[The Truth Injection]

Being down on the team is one thing. Being down on the team to the point that some people are where they post ridiculous things is another. I can only speak for myself but that's what i tire of.

Today alone we had people trading Werth for David Eckstein. People saying we have no depth at spots on the rotation where we clearly had depth (and then saying in this thread that we are missing our best pitcher from last year who was one of those guys) People have been declaring the season over since May 25th too.

I tire of constant rah rah, and I can understand why the gloomy grumps on here would as well. However, that works the same way when numerous times a day people have to read you saying some version of "the sky is falling."

it's totally possible to be passionate and weigh the ups and downs together. However, there are a select few on here that do that well. The rest operate on opposite ends of the extreme spectrum.

[Iceman]

dennyb- were you not trashing this team last September writing off any postseason chances they had? Did you not say during their most recent prolonged slump that the team has "always" been overrated offensively? And now you declare Hamels as mediocre in the middle of his start.

You have a track record of rooting for failure from the Phils and degrading their accomplishments, which is why your "I don't see much negativity" crap so hard to fathom. It's like TTI said a couple of threads earlier- I just don't even see why someone could take you seriously. And yet I keep reading your comments. I guess they're like a train wreck- I can't turn away.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

In case I forgot to say 'I told you so" tonight, I know for a fact that Ryan HOward knew that Meek would throw him a breaking ball in teh dirt on 3-2. I told him repeatedly from the 12th row behine the Phils batting circle. The man straight ignored me. Either that, or he swung at that crap for strike 3 on purpose.

[The Truth Injection]

the whole "always overrated offense" was really maybe the dumbest thing ever said on this blog and that covers a ton of ground.

The term "overrated" implies a subjective viewpoint is necessary. The Phillies offense was in the top 3 in the NL in runs scored from 2004 on. They were top 2 from 2005 on. Runs scored- the statistic that was used in that discussion is an objective stat. So how can a team that outscores every other team in their league be subjectively viewed as overrated? It makes absolutely zero sense.

[Iceman]

I'm sorry Hugh. I guess in a perfect world, everyone would bitch and leave ridiculous comments ("DFA Moyer! Fire Cholly! Trade Werth for David Eckstein! Sell the farm because the team is 3.5 games back in June!") unchecked. Unfortunately for you, people like me exist who read their team consistently- through both winning and losing- get degraded by their own fans on a site he reads mainly because of the site owner's proficiency both in writing and driving the conversation, and feel the need to opine.

In the future I will join the bitch-fest in order to please you, and join the group of brilliant thinkers begging for Jamie Moyer to retire in May (of last year). Sorry dude.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Serious question - last 2 pitches to Victorino: was strike three a make up call for the previous pitch? holy whipsaw, batman. that's unfair. and, I don't lightly sympathize wiht victorino who is {all together now} actively hurting the team.

[hrb]

"In case I forgot to say 'I told you so" tonight, I know for a fact that Ryan HOward knew that Meek would throw him a breaking ball in teh dirt on 3-2. I told him repeatedly from the 12th row behine the Phils batting circle. The man straight ignored me. Either that, or he swung at that crap for strike 3 on purpose."

Ryan Howard has the plate discipline of a married guy locked in the Playboy mansion. He knows he shouldn't, but he can't help himself.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

EDITED TO ADD: except when he's running down balls in center field better than any Phillie since Gary Maddox.

[The Truth Injection]

In the battle of injuries I think the Red Sox still have it worse than we do. Varitek is out now apparently with a broken foot.

That gives them: Beckett, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Hermida, Lowell, Martinez, and Pedroia on the DL

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Iceman - blah, blah ,blah, blah, blah.

I rarely disagree with you, dude. Just don't be a dikc.

[The Truth Injection]

HUgh: It looked like it. The last two pitches were pretty much in identical spots. I was shocked Vic wasn't rung up on the first one.

[Old Phan]

But the "its not time to panic" and "we need to be patient" stuff is for the birds

Then stop watching the games. See how easy that is?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Varitek is OUT? Who will wear the C?

And, what is the record for bunts per AB> Wilson Valdez loves the bunt. ?

[Heather]

Pitch #3 to Vic was on the corner. Should've been strike but as I said on the corner so a ball call wasn't outrageous. Pitch #4 was a bit more up and in the zone so more obviously a strike.

I am getting this off of MLB.com's Pitch F/X

[Hugh Mulcahy]

THanks Heather. I was sitting behind Vic. Pitch 3 looked like it was a strike based on what was being called. Pitch 4 was higher but, I thought it was more inside (thought 3 was a ball because it was low but, hell if I know)

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I'm not going to panic. I am going to b!tch, though, that Yuengling pounders are $7.25 at PNC this year. For those prices, I can get drunk watching TWO major league teams play in a city that has major league baseball, like Philadelphia or Cincinnati. 20 oz. Yuengling drafts are $7.75 at Primanti's, also. And, ask your taste of the burgh tapper if your brew is the real deal or the crap they got Lionshead to brew?

[GTown_Dave]

Hugh: Both pitches were in the Strike Zone, albeit on the edge thereof. Calling the first one a Ball & the second a Strike was BS. What's Shane supposed to do when he takes a pitch for a Ball, & then sees essentially the same pitch in the same location? The most important aspect of quality Balls & Strikes umpiring is consistency from pitch to pitch, & Guccione f'ed it up badly in that AB. Even so, there's no excuse for the Phillies getting 2 lousy Runs off a a guy who came into the game w/ an ERA of 11.00 ... when the Phillies face a lousy pitcher the "P" on their caps all-too-often stands for "Pitiful".

[Old Phan]

mmmm...Primanti's...

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Dave - based upon my in-depth and comprehensive study of statistical win probabilities for the PHiladelphia Phillies, I knew with lead pipe cinch certainty when I left the house this morning that the Phillies COULD NOT beat a AAA pitcher with an 11.00 ERA in the National League in 2010. I just wish I knew a bookie who takes action on Pirates games. They're all augmenting their spray-on tans at whatever they consider the "shore" in the crown jewel of the Rust Belt.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

On the bright side, I am mildly bullish on their chances to win the next 3 games in the capital of Appalachia with the likes of Moyer, Kendrick and Blanton. Hamels was destined to lose based on the logic of 2010.

Old Phan - make sure you go to the right Primantis. And, add the fried egg.

[Old Phan]

Hugh, it's been maybe 30 years (ouch) since I've been there, but I'm fairly certain it was the original one. Then there are the Fries at the Dirty O.

[denny b.]

"The whole "always overrated offense" was really maybe the dumbest thing ever said on this blog and that covers a ton of ground."

I betcha Larry Anderson would agree with me. But I guess he's "dumb" too.

He's been down on the Phils offense for 2 years now. And he's a paid employee.

Halladay was going to win 25 games this year because of that vaunted Phils offense. Remember all of those "experts" saying that last winter?

Charles Manual was not particularly happy with the offense last year either. No .300 hitters in the lineup, if I remember correctly. I think he understands hitting pretty 'good'. He can't be happy with this team either, since the offense has been much worse this year (although health has played more of a role this year). All of these 2-1 games have to be wearing on him.

In 2008, who played the bigger role in the playoffs? Cole Hamels, Ryan Madson and Brad Lidge or Ryan Howard, Chase Utley and Jimmy Rollins? How were the RISP numbers for the great Phils offense in the playoffs? The known "stars" of that team before October were mostly the offensive folks. The guys who got it done in October were mostly the pitching folks.

The pitching carried the Phils to the WS in 2008. Besides Utley, the Phils did very little against the Yanks in 2009 offensively.

Yes, good pitching generally beats good hitting. And once you get into the WS, you are probably going to see a lot of good pitchers. But we have also seen these guys struggle for years against no-name starters, who are new to MLB. How many games did Tim Redding make the Phils look stupid?

"Great" offensive clubs don't seemingly have the same issues year-after-year-after-year. "Great" offensive clubs don't have their cleanup hitter usually nuetered by any sort of LOOGY. "Great" offensive clubs don't have to rely on the long ball to score runs as sometimes their only source of output.

Again (since some you obviously ain't too bright) I said the Phils were a "good" offensive team, that could be explosive and streaky for the past few years. They were never "great" because they have always had problems with RISP, they have had trouble manufacturing runs and tended to rely too much on the big fly. There has always been way too much "all or nothing" with the Phils offense. This year its been way too much "nothing" in that formula. Way too much.

The Phils offense in the past was more of a "bully". They would get a pitcher hurt and then pile on. They'd inflate their run totals, beating the brains in on some scrub middle reliever who probably belonged in AAA. This is not a Phils only deal. A-Rod was guilty of this for years (and criticized by the NY media for it) for hitting those 2 run bombs in the 8th inning of an 11-1 game against some beerleaguer pitcher but not coming through often enough for them when it mattered. I think he's turned the corner on that argument.

I have always thought the Phils hitters and offense have been given too much credit for being a "juggernaut" (much of that coming from the East Coast media folks) and the Phils pitching staff not given enough credit for what they have done (pitching in a tough place to pitch 81 games a year). Its a terrible misconception that the Phils have been "all offense" and "no pitching", when in reality when the Phils have been right its been the combination of the two that is the reason they have won. A "good" but never great offense with a "good" but never great pitching staff.

In 2010, I think we still have a similar "good" but not great pitching staff that we have always have had. But this is nowhere close to the same offense that we have seen recently. With the injuries, its now a below average offensive team. When healthy (which we have barely seen in 2010) I think it would have been another "good" offensive club. Maybe not as "good" as prior years, but still able to win games coupled with good pitching. But not now.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Teh Dirty O stamps you as authentic. I once had a total stranger piss on my shoes while I ate fries at the dirty O. He was eating fries too, I believe.

[Old Phan]

http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/01/keeping-score-149-pitches-once-shouldnt-hurt/?ref=sports

fun article.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Old Phan - adding - the original Primantis is in teh Strip but there are a handful of authentic locations.

point of post- there were a ton of Phillies fans at the game tonight. I'm hopeful that they're boosting the local hospitality industry. didn't sell out the park, though. some of those seats just suck.

[Old Phan]

Hugh, that doesn't surprise me from what I remember of the O. Awesome place, though.

[Old Phan]

There seems to be tons of Phillies fans at every away game.

[Old Phan]

"The known "stars" of that team before October were mostly the offensive folks. The guys who got it done in October were mostly the pitching folks.'

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the case in the majority of post seasons in baseball history.

[MG]

Thoughts:

- Hamels was fine tonight. Got his share of swings & misses (14) and Ks, actually had a pretty good curveball tonight even though he used it very sparingly (9 total), and had decent enough location on his fastball.

Hamels overall though has been a mediocrity this year and hard to argue otherwise when you benchmark him against his own career stats or other starters in the league.

- McCutchen is a not a MLB-caliber starter yet any starter with a semi-decent changeup has a chance against this lineup right now. Big reason why McCutchen throw more changeups than any other pitch (25 tonight) and got some pretty good results including 3 swings & misses and a few strikeouts on them.

Phils have seen the 5th lowest rate of fastballs in the MLB (57.4%) and a ton of offspeed stuff - 2nd most sliders (17.4%) and t-11th most changeups (11.0%)

- Please, please JRoll and Howard be willing to take a BB if guys are throwing you slop out of the zone. You guys just aren't going to see many fastballs and almost certainly never see a first-pitch fastball.

- Meek deserves to be in the All-Star game as the Pirates' representative. Really impressed by what he did tonight in the 8th inning vs. Howard/Werth. McCutchen is by far the Pirates' best overall player (and their only player right now who is any kind of difference maker) but OF will be a pretty place for the NL in the ASG.

- Ibanez is Jenkins circa '08 without the solid defense. Yeah he still has some good swings against offspeed stuff but he just struggles against fastballs and his power is largely gone. Jenkins was also a streaky player who I waited for all summer that year to have one of his patented hot streaks. Never game. Tend to doubt now that it will come with Ibanez too.

Jenkins was a bench fixture in '08 by August and frankly he should be now against any LHP starter.

[DH Phils]

Luckily, denny b's posts are easily identifiable (anything over 15 paragraphs) and as such, can easily be skipped.

[MG]

Primanti's is arguably the single most overrated place in Pittsburgh. It is like Geno's in S. Philly (which make a mediocre cheesesteak at best with weak sides). Went there several times over the years when I visited my sister out while she was going to school and have yet to have a really good sandwich.

Yeah they give huge portions and it is interesting to try once. Should you repeatedly go back? No way. Much better and more interesting places to eat in Pittsburgh than overrated Primanti's.

Fries at the Dirty O though are pretty damn good though.

[Old Phan]

"Jenkins was a bench fixture in '08 by August and frankly he should be now against any LHP starter."

I assume you mean Raul and not Jenkins. I thought he was out of baseball.

[MG]

While being hyper defensive about criticizing this team kind of wears on me, I don't understand why people wouldn't watch this team. There are still plenty of players on this team worth watching on a nightly basis especially if Halladay is starting. Hell, watched/mainly listened to on the radio many a Phils' team that were much less talented and were more difficult to root than this bunch.

Hell, this team is 2 GB in the WC right trailing the Mets. NL is a land full of midgets. Even though the Phils are just 17-23 the past 6 weeks, they only have to keep pace with the midgets around them.

[Old Phan]

On another fun note, Chooch is going to be out longer than expected.

[MG]

Old Phan - Yeah. I wouldn't even mind seeing Francisco start against RHP especially against a starter who predominantly throws a ton of fastballs.

[MG]

I really hope that Cholly keeps starting Dobbs at 3B especially against RHP starters. He was 2-4 tonight and he at least brings some hope that he might regain his stroke if gets some starts.

Castro is utterly useless. Hitting .154 since May 1st with a .420 OPS. You would be better off sending up Hamels to PH. At least No-Hit Nunez was a pretty sound defender and took the occasional BB. Never thought I would long for the days of No-Hit at 3B but suddenly I do now.

[DMarley]

Old Phan, you are my favorite BLer.

My take: Phils will get it together (I truly believe this!). Or they won't. Either way, while I often appreciate their point of view, I can't really empathize with the consistently negative posters because, personally, I love this team and following it day-in day-out through a long season is nothing but a pleasure and a gift, regardless of that particular night's outcome. Having said that, I'll be really disappointed (and surprised, even though we were apparently mathematically eliminated weeks ago) if they don't make the postseason.

Most of the negative prognosticating around here strikes me as positioning for future genius moments and I-told-you-so's. I guess there's some sad glory in that but I prefer to look on the bright side with my favorite sports team. Life is depressing enough without projecting it onto the beautiful and absurd game of baseball.

Humble suggestion: if you're going to be relentlessly negative, please also be funny (some of you do this VERY well, and I thank you for the lulz). There were some real gems in tonight's game thread.

[DH Phils]

MG: Excellent series of posts, pretty much sums up the way I feel about the Phillies right now. Agree about having watched many far worse Phillies teams, agree about the NL being weak, agree about Dobbs vs. LHP, agree about Primanti's being overrated.

Old Phan: Thank you for being a lonely voice of reason amongst the negativity. This team has, after all, won 10 of 17 (for those of us with an attention span longer than 4 days).

[Old Phan]

Marley and DH, many thanks for the kind words.
" I guess there's some sad glory in that but I prefer to look on the bright side with my favorite sports team. Life is depressing enough without projecting it onto the beautiful and absurd game of baseball."
Very well said. Nothing wrong with pointing out the negative, but there comes a time when maybe people should take a break from it if it's killing you.

[Old Phan]

On a completely irrelevant note, I would assume there are some guitar players on BL.

After watching Ibanez for awhile, I was inspired to figure out baseball's all time Guitar team (For those who don't know, an Ibanez guitar) is pronounced "EYE-ban-ez" but so be it. Please let me know who I am leaving out.
1B-Paul Smith
2B-Tony Taylor
SS-Hector Luna
3B-Billy Martin
C-Ed Fernandes
OF-Raul
OF-Reggie Jackson
OF-Dave Parker
P-Bob Gibson
P-Jake Peavy
P-Jarrod Washburn
P-Mike Marshall
Honorable Mention-Carlos Santana

[EastFallowfield]

This reminds me of a Futurama quote:

Fry: "You can't give up hope just because it's hopeless. You have to hope even harder, cover your ears, and go 'blah blah blah blah blah!'

Did Fry survive the episode?

[Cipper]

Werth to catcher, BRING UP DOMONIC!

I enjoy ways of twisting everything around so Dom Brown can come up...

[Marc H]

Teams that are short-handed react in 1 of 2 ways. They either circle the wagons and play through it or press and make it worse. Right now, the Phillies are pressing and making things worse

[A-Train]

"Looking forward to watching our stopper take the hill tomorrow night."

I am too. I'll be on the road by 10. Looking forward to seeing other Phillies fans on the PA TP. 9 of us will be sitting near the Phils dugout.

Don't fret everyone. The Phils have been rather lethargic despite good starting pitching. The good starting pitching will keep them around until we start getting healthy again. They'll be in a position to make their move. Not sure they'll win in the playoffs with just one ace but I still believe they will get there.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Marc H - I think they are pressing and, playing teams like the Pirates exacerbates it because they've got the added pressure that they're expected to win. It also doesn't help that every team they face has the Phillies circled on their calendar as a measuring stick series and, they're all doubly motivated by the fact that the Phils are a wounded animal.

[R.Billingsly]

I hate to give up on the season this early. Especially since only a few short days ago, I post how there was never a good time to push the "panic button" (pictured above). But, it's getting darn close. Wilson Valdez is not going to continue to hit HRs at a Ruthian pace for much longer. A move has to be made. And a major one.

Rube better be on the phone all day, all night to fix these problems.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Trade Vic, move Werth to CF, and call up Brown. Not sure where the team speed would come from.

[dlhunter]

It's worth mentioning all my comments are to some degree or another tongue-in-cheek. Realistically, the season is far from over.

And I understand the calls here for a move to bring in a quality infielder, but by what magic could Rube pull that off (emphasis on quality)?

What trade pieces do we have left? Jon Singleton? Tuffy?

[JoefromCamden]

Have a question: if Utley is out until Spet, can the Phils put him on the roster for the playoffs (assuming they make it)? Not sure of the rules for an injured player.

[Tim]

If they are five out at the deadline the Phils will trade some combination of Moyer/Kendrick/Werth/Contreras for a young right handed outfield bat. The drunk frontrunning masses at CBP will jump off the Walt Whitman. But with the call up of Brown, and with Ruiz, Utley, Happ and Madson back the Phils will still win the wildcard after an insane August/September and I will again sell my extra playoff tickets on stubhub for 4x's their value, financing the next years season tickets.

There will be no trade for a middle infielder, Poly will be back in no time.

See, no reason to panic.

[Bruce Ruffin]

This is really simple. If the pitching continues just as it is -- with at least Madson returning to add depth to the pen -- the following gentlemen had better report for duty at the dish:
* Rollins
* Werth
* Howard (yes you, Ryan. I loved dennyb.'s comment about our $125mm man's vulnerability to LOOGYs!)
* Victorino
* Ibanez
If these proven players close up shop, Jayson’s graphic is indicated. However, if these 5 battle-tested veterans step up and play 27 outs, good things will happen. It’s not quite time for Jayson’s graphic. However, this is an epic gut-check for a team that Father Time is starting creep up on.

[Andy]

Nice graphic, JW.

[Jack]

There's some troubling signs (mainly the injuries to key players), but no reason to panic, yet.

I also agree that the "overrated offense" thing is an absolutely idiotic notion. This team has been in the top 3 in the league in runs every year since 2004, and also, in case you didn't know, won the division the last 3 years. So the offense is doing something right.

Finally, I think people should chill out overall, but bashing other fans for being "negative" and acting as if they're lesser fans is stupid. People are fans in different ways--some fans, whether in Philly or any other city, are the type of people who take a negative outlook on things and then are pleasantly surprised (or not). So be it. If you don't like it, don't read it. But these people on here are also on a Phillies blog day in, and day out. They clearly follow the team, watch them every day and night, and spend time thinking about them. They are certainly better fans than the drunken idiot who shows up to Dollar Dog night with a J-Roll jersey and gets kicked out by the 7th inning. Just because someone on here would take a different viewpoint than you doesn't make them any more or less of a fan--the fact that they are here day after day pretty much puts them in probably the top 5 percent of committed Phillies fans, and I think people should keep that in mind.

[Kozmo Kramer]

When the Phillies win the next 3 and then take 2/3 from Atl, Heather and the gang will be back on the bandwagon. Then they might lose the next series and they will be back off. That must be a tough way to go through a 162 game season.

[jr]

For you stat guys: What kind of run support is Jamie getting compared to Doc and Hammels?