Phillies 'methodically marching' through second half

I love the phrase "methodical march." I use it every chance I get.

Scott Franzke coined it in the final days of the 2009 season to summarize the Phillies' six-month slog, and I think it applies to what's been going on with the team since the All-Star break, with a couple of key differences. The hitting is much weaker, with injuries playing a big part, but the starting staff is clearly stronger, and dare I say the back of the bullpen is in better shape (Romero's had a nice recovery lately, hasn't he?). Just to put it in perspective, a year ago, there were murmurs about using Tyler Walker in the ninth inning.

The lack of offense negatively skews perceptions since nobody wants to sit through low-scoring games night after night, plus they've been chasing the carrot since late May. But systematically, they've seized 10 of their last 12 series overall and are 28-18 since the break. They finished August with a 18-10 mark, their best month of the season, despite hitting .241 over that stretch. It's all thanks to a 2.93 August ERA. They’ve stabilized away from the Bank, winning four-straight series (9-1) to climb over .500 in out of town games (34-33).

When they stay clear of the Astros they look like a solid bet to again represent the National League in the World Series. Only this time it might be as the league’s wild card representative.

Comments

[Joe Cowley]

This upcoming Brewers series is key, this is the type of team that is usually a problem for us in this spot. And hopefully the Braves will face more stiff competition when they actually begin playing major league teams this weekend again.....

[AL]

Those Braves series will be huge and not just for the division. The Phils have proved they can handle and dominate the Reds (4 game home sweep) and Pads (3 game road sweep), but the Braves are a different story. I expect both of those series to be equivalent to playoff baseball intensity wise. If the Phillies can win both series it sends the Braves and the rest of the NL a very strong message that the Phillies are a dangerous team peaking at the right time.

That said there are games to play in the meantime and they need to continue this methodical march and play to their potential in taking care of business.

[Sophist]

Looking at the Phils losses since the break

lose 3-4 to the Cubs
lose 3-4 to the Cards
lose 2-3 to the Nats
lose 4 to the Astros

12 of their 18 came in series losses with a 2-10 record against the Central.

They're 26-8 against everyone else.

Anyone worried about this Brewers series?

[Joe Cowley]

The only thing we can keep falling back on is that we have the best starting pitching far and away of any of the contending teams. Would have mentioned the Cards in the same breath a month ago but they are going down in flames. Looks like we may have played a huge part in exposing the Padres as well.

[Dan in Philly]

Can't figure out the hitting, Chase and Howard haven't been themselves, it seems. Due to injury? Just a bad season? It seems clear to me that those two are the ones who make the difference between an ok offense and a great offense.

Quick quiz: who is leading the Phils in VORP for hitters?

Jayson Werth! And it really isn't close. http://www.baseballprospectus.com/team_audit.php?team=phi

Second is Howard, third is Utley. The fact that our #2 and #3 most valuable hitters both missed a lot of time, especially Utley, says a lot about the rest of our team's hitting this year, and also just how much time and production we've lost across the board to injury.

If it comes down to a short series with the Braves, our starting pitching is pretty clearly better 1-3. Hudson is a great pitcher, but it's hard to see him over Doc. Hamels and Oswalt are both far better than Atlanta's 2 and 3.

It's no contest compared to the Reds 1-3 starters, and each of our big 3 are better than any of theirs. Sand Diego matches up pretty well against our starters, but they have the same problem with scoring runs as we do without the excuses of wholesale injuries slowing them down.

Over all, if we can make the postseason we would have to be favored in any matchup against any team, due to our top heavy starting pitching and our hopefully fully healthy lineup. Let's go Phils!

[Meyer]

The Phils just need a better record than the Giants as I see them winnging the West. If Timmy comes back, that's a dirty staff.

[Joe Cowley]

Anyone catch the goings on in Florida after Nyjer Morgan's latest bout with insanity last night? All 65 fans were really into it...

[Sophist]

SIERA comparison

Doc: 2.90 ............. Hudson: 3.69
Hamels: 3.21 ......... Hanson: 3.69
Oswalt: ~3.50 ........ Lowe: 4.04

Cueto: 4.23 ......... Wainwright: 3.16
Harand: 4.29 ....... Garcia: 3.76
Arroyo: 4.80 ....... Carpenter: 3.78

Latos: 3.04 ........ Lincecum: 3.37 ....... Chacin: 3.56
Richard: 4.15 ....... Sanchez: 3.78 ....... Jimenez: 3.60
Correia: 4.27 ....... Cain: 4.05 ............. Hammel: 3.75

[jason.tp]

Is chapman supposed to be a starter down the road or is Cincy just going to take the easy road and let him close?

[denny b.]

Chapman is being groomed to close games.

[Sophist]

I think eventually they want him to be a starter.

[Bay Slugga]

I really like the pitching matchups against the Brewers.

First thing is first though - the Phils need to steal one tonight in Colorado.

Can we have a Franzke love fest today? I freakin love that guy.

[Sophist]

In late June, the Reds' rotation was performing well with no immediate need for a starter. However, the bullpen was struggling for consistency, prompting the feeling that Chapman's best chance to reach the Majors this season was as a reliever. He is expected to return to being a starting pitcher next season.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100805&content_id=13068790&vkey=news_cin&fext=.jsp&c_id=cin

[Bay Slugga]

The remaining six games against the Braves are going to be huge. It is going to feel like playoff baseball for sure. Do the Phillies plan on starting with the rally towels now that it is September?

[johnnyd]

You know, Charlie's managing style is admirable, and one that seems to be pretty effective with this team. His attitude is summed up best with this line, taken from a recent blog, "You just have to let these things run their course..." Can you imagine that coming from Larry Bowa?!? Of course not. Charlie's style demonstrates a true respect and faith in his players to play to their potential, both as individuals and, more importantly, as a team. He won't pull the trigger on a guy prematurely, but rather let him work out his difficulties on the field. That takes a lot of moxie, especially in light of fan and media pressure to do otherwise. Yep, Charlie's a players' manager and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[GBrettfan]

I will be taking my rally towels to Monday's make-up game--Thanks for reminding me, Bay Slugga!

[jason.tp]

Carlos Gonzalez - Home:

.386/.431/.781 - 1.212 OPS !! in 260 PA
23 HR in 233 AB (10.1 AB/HR), 38/20 K/BB

Carlos Gonzalez - Away

.275/.296/.437 - .733 in 257 PA
7 HR in 247 AB (35.3 AB/HR), 75/8 K/BB !!

That is completely insane home/away splits right. No way I go near this guy tonight.

[Joe Cowley]

I agree that Charlie is the perfect manager for this team, but I also think he needs to show a little Larry Bowa once in while, even if behind closed doors, not on the field all the time like Bowa did. I think if he did this team would have gotten motivated a little sooner then they have, and would be closer to competing for the division rather than the wild card. Bowa's problem was that he was all about taking the hard line, and never treated the players with the respect the Charlie does.

[Matt]

You hit the nail on the head, Jason. The offense is what has carried this team for years, even beyond the '08 and '07 seasons. It's struggled this year and fans are panicking. Meanwhile, the Phillies won 18 games in August on the strength of the pitching staff and were a couple of bad umpiring calls away from possibly being 20-8. You would never know it from reading the comments here, though. If the offense finally starts clicking in September, look out.

[Bay Slugga]

Cargo is having a hell of a year, and I'm not really surprised after what we saw in the 2009 NLDS.

Those home/away splits are out of control.

[st]

he looked great last night in SF too. 3 for 4 with an oppo HR off Lincecum. as far as the brewers series, they beat them at milwaukee earlier this year when the phillies were crap on the road. i see them playing fairly well this weekend. tonight, tossup. blanton in colorado is probably not a great matchup but at least we aren't facing jimenez or delarosa

[Dukes]

The Rockies very quietly made out on the Holliday trade. Could CarGo be better? Time will tell, but I think the answer will be "yes."

[st]

i'd be more concerned with the florida series next week because we are going to have to throw a minor leaguer in there, it's a 4 game series and florida plays extremely well at CBP. they win most of the series there. we have a tough time with them at CBP but beat them in florida. go figure

[Joe Cowley]

I cant understand why we win in Florida with that home field advantage they have down there.....

[jason.tp]

st: "at least we're not facing Jiminez or de la Rosa"

Um, how did those two make it in the same sentence?

And on top of him not being good, the Phillies own him even worse. Career vs PHI:

0-3, 9.78 ERA, 19.1 IP in 4 starts and 2 relief appearences.

[Fatalotti]

According to thsoe SIERA comparisons, Halladay is the best pitcher on all contenders (duh!), Hamels is 4th among the contender's pitching staffs and Oswalt is 6th.

Hudson, Hanson and Lowe are 9th, 10, and 15th respectively.

Wainwright, Garcia and Carpenter are 3, 12, 13.

Latos, Richard, Correia (should we look at Garland instead Sophist?) are 2, 17 and 19.

Lincecum Sanchez and Cain are 5, 14, and 16.

Chacin, Jimenez and Hammel are 7, 8 and 11.

Cueto, Harang and Arroyo are 18, 20, 21.

I would rank the top 3 like this based on SIERA:

Phils
Cards
Rox
Giants
Padres
Braves
Reds

[Chris in VT]

Gonzalez is another mile-high creation. He's definitely got talent, but names like Dante Bichette, Andres Galaragga, Todd Helton, and Larry Walker spring to mind when looking at his numbers...

[Bob]

They're all important from here on out, but for sure the Braves games will have a playoff like atmosphere.

I keep thinking the Braves' miracle in Atlanta has to come back to earth, but they somehow keep rolling. If that continues, everyone will have a good degree of RA about them by the time theose games roll around. I know in an ideal world I should respect them for hanging tough after Chipper went down, but instead they just tick me off.

[st]

they are a completely different road team though. i mean, it's drastic. eight games under .500. that's the saving grace and the fact that we have a chance to beat them head to head. plus they come to philly first which I think is good. I think we are probably going to be in the playoffs anyway one way or another by the time we face them in october

[jason.tp]

chris: without looking, i think Helton and Larry Walker benefitted but in no ways were creations. Even the bigcat was already a proven player before playing at Mile High.

Now if you woulda said Vinny Castilla and Ellis Burke, i'd agree.

[Joe Cowley]

Ellis Borks wasnt bad when he was with the Giants. Castilla was definitely a Mile High guy, didnt he have 40HR 4 years in a row, then stunk it up when he left Colorado?

[Sophist]

Fatalotti - I just took the top 3 SIERA from each team among players with at least 100 IP.

[Joe Cowley]

oops--Burks

[Fatalotti]

Sophist, thanks. Didn't know how Garland ranked. Would SD consider him be in their top 3, ie, would he start one of the first three games of a playoff series?

[jason.tp]

cowly: ah good call, Burks had a much better career than I thought.

[Sophist]

"i think Helton and Larry Walker benefitted but in no ways were creations"

Probably the right way to look at it. For starters, almost every player is slightly better at home. Also, Helton has hit .291/.392/.482 on the road in his career. Those 8 or so straight seasons of near 1.200 OPS at home is probably a bit much though. Helton's had an excellent career but it's hard to take seriously his 15th all time OBP or 44th all time BA or 11th all time OPS. Is he really one of the top 20 hitters of all time or even the top 50 or 100? His OPS+ is 86th all time.

[st]

if you watched him play the phillies, you'd think he was ted williams. i think he's close to .400 lifetime

[Sophist]

Fatalotti - I'd think so since he's 3rd on the team in ERA and 2nd in IP. Correia has a good SIERA but his ERA is 5.52. Garland's SIERA is 4.61.

In either case they have Latos and then will likely to outmatched by any NL team except the Reds. Puts a lot of pressure on the rookie in the playoffs, esp. since they probably won't score much behind him.

[awh]

One thought:

Until the Phillies, or whoever, clinch a playoff spot, the intensity is going to ramp up to playoff game level, whether it's the Braves or any other team(who will be trying to knock the Phils off).

I was at the clinching game on Sept. 30, 2007. The place was buzzing even before the game and it got more intense as the game went on. It was, effectively, a playoff game.

Second thought:

Sophist's SIERA comparisons pleasantly surprise. Hamels' is better than all but Wainright and Latos.

Third thought:

CarGo's splits remind me of what Holliday's when he was in COL.

Fourth thought:

I hope the offense comes around, because asking the pitching staff to post another 2.93 ERA in September may be asking a bit much. Score som runs boys!

Fifth thought:

I know the Nyjer Morgan discussion was on the last thread, but I must say this: This "unwritten rule" of baseball stuff, while I know it exists, is a bunch of crap.

Are they serious?

If you're up or down by a lot late in a game you're not supposed to steal a base? Why? Showing up the other team?

Why is trying or playing your hardest "showing up" the other team? If that's part of "MLB culture" then it's wrong - and for one reason only (especially in modern times):

Fans pay to see the game, and they're entitled to see players play as hard as they can for all 9 innings. Anything less is shortchanging the fans.

It costs over $100 for the average family to attend a game anywhere in MLB (and much more in some cities). It's not 1930 anymore, when games could be attended for a pittance, even adjusted for inflation in relation to today's costs.

Can't steal a base? Does that apply to pitching and hitting too?

Why don't hitters, if their team is up big late in a game, just keep the bat on their shoulders, let the pitcher groove three strikes past them and just sit down?

If Ryan Howard were to have 3 HR in a game, and the Phils are up 10 in the 7th inning, is he NOT supposed to try to hit the ball and get his 4th?

I ask you, what's the difference between TRYING to hit the ball and TRYING to steal a base?

Both involve effort, and if a team isn't putting forth maximum effort then they're stealing money from paying customers. It's an excuse for late-game laziness.

[Sophist]

st - he's a .377/.476/.658 career hitter against the Phils. Ridiculous. One of those situations where opposing fans look down on his possibly environment-inflated numbers, but the loser in the end (relatively speaking) is the player. Probably won't get much HOF attention.

[st]

yeah that's what i thought. i think it used to be even better but he's started to wind down and hasn't hit as good against us recently

[Chris in VT]

Walker was a very good player who suddenly went from a doubles machine to a masher as soon as he arrived in Colorado. His career high for HRs in any season played outside of Colorado is 23. In Colorado he had seasons of 36, 37, 38, and 49(!) HRs. Helton would have been a solid 1B anywhere other than Denver. Instead he's put up video-game numbers that make him look like one of the best of all time. Galaragga was established as a decent 1B with a great glove before Colorado, but he only had 2 800+ OPS seasons out of 8 before he gets to Colorado. His first season there he puts up a ridiculous .370/403/602 line and his WORST OPS in his career there was 842. Dante Bichette was a nobody. Ellis Burks was washed up. Vinny Castilla was a failed prospect. Jeffrey Hammonds was a decent OF, gets to the Rox and goes 335/395/529, by far the best season of his career, etc, etc. I'm not saying these players didn't have talent, but they are all mile-high creations to one extent or another. Same goes for CarGo. It's simply the reality of MLB in Denver.

[Sophist]

Yeah, he's 4 his last 24 against the Phils (that's the last two years with 1 XBH and 2 BB).

So he was a .397/.487/.700 hitter before the start of 2008.

[Fatalotti]

100% agree, awh. Especially in baseball, where there is no time limit, the other team always has a chance to come back. There is nothing wrong with piling on run nor is there anything wrong with trying to get back in the game.

Just last year, the Red Sox took something like an 11-1 lead into the 9th inning against the Orioles. The Red Sox had a terrific bullpen last year, and this didn't happen often, but they coughed up that entire lead to the Orioles (the Orioles, who were pitiful last year).

If the Red Sox had taken their foot off the pedal in that 7th or 8th inning because they had a big lead, well, I'm glad they lost.

[Sophist]

some Away comparisons

Helton: .291/.392/.482
Thomas: .297/.414/.511
E Martinez: .312/.412/.514
Will Clark: .297/.376/.478
Bagwell: .291/.398/.521
Chipper: .296/.395/.512
McGriff: .288/.376/.510
Olerud: .301/.402/.464
Palmeiro: .291/.366/.502

Hard to say what Helton's career looks like if he's a lifetime Met/Giant/Brave, but his away numbers are a step below some likely HOF at 1B/DH/3B but not by much.

[R.Billingsly]

In Re: Nyjer Morgan.

I see it differently than most. I don't see this as being and old school v. new school issue, or an unwritten rule issue. I see it much more simply:

Nyjer Morgan is an a-hole. He has done things recently to stir up controversy and teams/players were getting sick of it. End of story.

[Joe Cowley]

Helton's 2000 season was ridiculous: 216 Hits, 59 2B, 42HR, 147RBI, .698 Slugging, 1.162 OPS....similar season in 2001, then a steady decline ever since

[RSB]

AWH - as I understand it, Morgan stole those two bases after being hit with a pitch - this apparently in response to separating the shoulder of Florida's catcher Brett Hayes in a collision the night before. *Then* in his next AB, he got thrown at again. To me, the guy was asking for it.

It's sort of amusing and sad to see the Nationals, who had seemed like they were on a course to respectability, unravel in a matter of days since they got the bad news on Strasburg. It has to totally deflate the whole organization to know they won't have him next year...and then they fire their announcer and see their leadoff hitter suddenly turn into Milton Bradley. Don't think we'll have to be worrying about that bunch for awhile.

[Joe Cowley]

Morgan is from the Albert-Belle/Milton Bradley school of headcases. He's lucky they didnt carry him out from under that pile on a cart, in fact it's pretty hard to believe he came out of it unscathed. Next time he may not be so lucky.

[Edmundo]

"Same goes for CarGo. It's simply the reality of MLB in Denver."

Don't forget that there is the humidor in COL now, which has drastically shifted the "park" from being a wiffle ball field to a general hitter's park. You can't compare CarGo's COL #s directly to Castilla, Bichette and the others from 10-15 years ago.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I might be wrong, but I never thought or heard about attitude problems involving Morgan. I live in the DC area. There have been talks of him losing his job as leadoff/CF, which obviously would hurt his career. I wonder if the pressure of that got to him. Plus, he's on the Nats.

[phils and nova]

awh, you mentioning the clinching game in 2007 made my morning.

i remember getting there about 25 minutes before first pitch at 1:35. The mets and marlins started at 1 and people were just going nuts in the parking lot as the marlins were on their way to scoring 7! runs in the first. everyone in the lot just knew it was the phillies day before the game even started....good times

[Joe Cowley]

Adam Dunn should use him as a fungo. That may convince him to end his antics.

[Chris in VT]

Edmundo -

CarGo @ home, 2010: 386/431/781 (1.212 OPS), 23 HRs, 60 RBI, 38:20 K/BB.

CarGo @ road, 2010: 275/296/437 (.733 OPS), 7 HRs, 32 RBI, 75:8 K/BB.

You're right, there's only a slight home-field split there...

[Jack]

Before the last two weeks, Morgan was always considered a great clubhouse guy and the kind of guy you wanted on your team.

Not sure what's happening with him but hope that if it's personal issues like Milton Bradley, he's getting them taken care of.

[R.Billingsly]

Bed Beard:

I'm honestly surprised to hear that. Watching MLB Network and ESPN, they make it seem like Morgan is an issue. Watching him play, it seems true. Obviously we'll never know 100% how he is as a teammate or a person in general, but there is anecdotal evidence to say he is a problem. Recently though (as other posters have pointed out), he has done some pretty classless things, including but not limited to the incident in Philly (he got a 7-game suspension, for Pete's sake). Nothing major (up until this point), but a bunch of arrogant, unnecessary acts that have really put a black mark on his season.

[R.Billingsly]

Jack: Really? Never heard he was a good clubhouse guy. From anyone. Am I that far out of the loop?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Morgan beaned a fan in Philly with a ball so, he obviously has some issues and he's definitely playing with a chip on his shoulder. What happened in Florida, though, was a two-way street. You can say he was asking for it but, Morgan showed the Fish that he's not backing down. The guy took on a pitcher who had 8" on him, and the rest of the team to boot. That's Tanner Boyle-sized balls right there.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

There was a blurb in the Wash Post following the ball throwing incident at CBP. A Phils Phan sitting in the section said he was getting harrased by a phan, but it was mostly good natured stuff that Morgan acknowledged by laughing at. He caught the 3rd out and tossed the ball into the crowd as fan friendly thing to do, but the guy who got hit wasn't paying attention. Wasn't meant as a dirty thing to do.

That's all paraphrased from the Post. I wonder how true that account is.

[Joe Cowley]

I'm sure the Post's article isn't tainted by the national media's obsession with portraying Phillies fans as animals, or maybe bitterness that whenever we play the Nats on their turf our fans pretty much dominate the stadium. I cant picture a playful Morgan playing soft-toss with a goodnatured Phillies fan, all in good fun. If anything, his antics after that incident are proving this story is BS

[no name fame]

"There's nothing good I can say about someone who doesn't play the game the right way and doesn't respect the integrity of the game," said Wes Helms, who drove in five runs for Florida. "We had to show we weren't going to put up with how he was treating us."

Wes Helms is such a little b*tch. How is tryin gto get your team back in a game by swiping some bags treating the opposing team badly. Glad he isn't a Philly anymore. We want people who play to win, not to appease other teams wishes.

[Joe Cowley]

They really taught him, Wes. He came out of the pile strutting and baiting the fans without a scratch on him. That's when he really shouldve gotten pummeled.

[Chris in VT]

BB - That's funny, since the Inky had the opposite story. The guy who got hit in the head wasn't paying attention and didn't know if Morgan intentionally threw at him, but all the fans around him said that he did, and team security got involved.

I don't think MLB would suspend Morgan 7 games if the WaPo story was a true account of what happened.

[Joe Cowley]

You guys really showed him, Wes. he came out of the pile posing, strutting and baiting the fans without a scratch on him. That's when he shouldve got pummeled.

[Old Phan]

"Nyjer Morgan is an a-hole. He has done things recently to stir up controversy and teams/players were getting sick of it. End of story."

Couldn't agree more. His behavior is the issue, not stolen bases. If he doesn't get suspended for the incident at CBP, he should get suspended for his little scene after the brawl.
And to think some people are defending this idiot but felt Ryno should have "controlled his temper" against Mr. Replacement Ump.

[RSB]

Again - context, people. It wasn't just the stolen bases. This is from the wire copy:

"Morgan, recently suspended and criticized by his own manager for questionable acts on the field, left Florida catcher Brett Hayes with a separated shoulder Tuesday night after a home plate collision in the 10th inning.

Florida's Chris Volstad hit Morgan with a pitch in the fourth inning this time. The speedy leadoff man then stole two bases with his Nationals trailing, 14-3.

Volstad (9-9) threw his first pitch of the sixth behind Morgan, setting off a wild scene. Morgan took a big swing that appeared to graze Volstad's face - Marlins first baseman Gaby Sanchez clothes-lined Morgan, knocking off his batting helmet and sending him to the ground. The teams piled up, and managers Jim Riggleman, of the Nationals, and Edwin Rodriguez, of the Marlins, jawed at each other.

Last Saturday, Morgan collided with St. Louis catcher Bryan Anderson, who had stepped a foot or two in front of the plate. Riggleman later called Morgan's actions "unprofessional."

[Joe Cowley]

Could you imagine Morgan pulling an act like that at CPB, baiting the fans, espcecially after what he already pulled here? He'd better hope he is suspended during the series from the 17-19th.

[no name fame]

@ Joe Cowley. VERY TRUE. If he took exception to the heckling before, the heckling in the upcoming series will be 10 times worse.. cant wait to watch that show, haha.

[Joe Cowley]

Maybe we can bring in Baez to pitch to him, he'll hit him without trying but at least it will be a 90 plus fastball.....

[Dan in Philly]

Why no Cliff Lee discussion?

[Cipper]

BB- I was in the crowd opening day and we REALLY harassed Morgan that day as well. He did the same thing, he took it well, laughed with the crowd and everything. I thought he seemed like a pretty good guy.

So with my experience I had with Morgan, I would bet the Wash paper is more correct than the Inky.

[Old Phan]

He's no Cliff Lee, but Aroldis Chapman is pretty impressive.

[MG]

The collison with Hayes is one thing. That was more grit/aggressive play by Morgan than a dirty play. Just because it is generally frowned upon now to run over the catcher at plates at home instead of trying to slide around him, it is a part of the game.

Stealing 2 bases to pad your stats down 14-3 is bush league and Helms is 100% right.

.

[Chris in VT]

Cipper - so why the 7 game suspension from MLB?

[Bay Slugga]

I missed the previous Morgan discussion, but how does everyone feel about him taking out the catcher?

When watching the replay, it appears he may have been safe if he slid, but taking out the catcher wasn't bad baseball etiquette IMO. The only problem I had with the railroad is that Morgan should of went over to see if he was OK after he touched the plate.

The stealing of the bases isn't really a big deal either. It is stupid baseball considering the score, but otherwise it doesn't matter much.

The only problem I have the entire thing is Morgan's antics after the brawl. We get it man, you are so gangsta and everyone at the stadium should know that. Remember Millage and that other guy? The Nationals got rid of them for similar attitudes. Go play basketball if you want to act like that.

[Joe Cowley]

I agree on the plate collision as well, Jayson Werth plowed into the catcher with similat ferocity last week and broke the nail on his left pinky....

[Meyer]

Speakng of gray areas of the rule book, I hope we steal some signs tonight.

[Bay Slugga]

Steal early, and steal often.

[Joe Cowley]

Stay thirsty my friend....

[Chris in VT]

Bay Slugga - Morgan throwing a ball at the crowd, cheap-shotting the STL catcher, and the antics post-brawl yesterday are the only real issues I have with him. The "unwritten rules" stuff doesn't bother me.

Other than that he seems like a swell guy.

[Old Phan]

There is nothing wrong with a hard slide or taking out the catcher when the play calls for it just like there is nothing wrong with a hard slide into 2nd to break up a double play, but it depends on the situation and how you do it. It appeared as if Morgan could have slid under the tag at home fairly easily, but in that context, it looked like he was in the mood to injure another catcher.

[Joe Cowley]

In the olden days before spoiled overrated overpaid punks were the norm in baseball, every club had their enforcers to keep idiots like Morgan under control. I remember when Kenny Lofton arrived in NY for a brief stint, he strolled into the clubhouse and blasted his stereo, prompting Jeter to get him to lower it and remind him whose team it was up front, and his early exit was soon to come. Dunn and Zimmerman seem like good candidates to give him a talkin' to.....

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Is there a video of the throw in the crowd? All in all, something is going on with Morgan over the last few weeks. I think they acquired him b/c of his potential, but also b/c he was different than the Dukes, Milledges of the world.

[Meyer]

Maybe Morgan and Dibble can dabble with the rabble babble at the World Wrestling Entertainment group.

[Joe Cowley]

I saw the video. The fan's head goes back, and to the left...back, and to the left...back, and to the left.....

[Hugh Mulcahy]

OP: "It appeared as if Morgan could have slid under the tag at home fairly easily, but in that context, it looked like he was in the mood to injure another catcher."

No doubt he was determined to steamroll the catcher at least several steps before he got there. Fish took exception, so they plunked him and he took his base(, then another, and another.) Should have ended there but, it didn't and Morgan isn't to blame for that, unless being an azzhole gives other teams a license to throw at you until you cry mama. I know Morgan's an azzhole and all but, I wouldn't want a guy who didn't stand up for himself the second time they came after him.

[Heather]

The way I saw that incident, the catcher wasn't even in the basepath. In fact, by going out of his way to hit the catcher, he missed the base. That isn't a Pete Rose type move, where he's gonna score or else.

No, he just decided he was going to run into the catcher, and by doing so, he missed home plate.

That's not playing the game the right way. That's turning baseball into MMA where the primary goal is to hurt the other guy, regardless if it helps your team or not.

[Old Phan]

Heather, that's how I saw it as well. It didn't look like a clean play.

[Joe Cowley]

he was just as obnoxious in his post-game interview at his locker, using profanity and saying he's a hard-nosed player and that's the way he handles things. The team should have muzzled him after the whole incident took place, which goes to show you another reason why the Nats stink. Not a good couple of weeks for that organization.

[c13]

Morgan seems like he has some issues. But I don't really get what is wrong with stealing bases when you're down by 10 runs. Maybe if you're up by 10 runs, I could see someone getting PO'd, not that I'd agree with it. Unwritten rules are BS. I think the marlins just don't like him and were still pissed about the collision at the plate.

[Noah]

I tend to think that something happened while Morgan was stealing those bases (i.e. he continued to run his mouth) that led to the second attempted plunking.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

heather, are you referring to the play against St. Louis that got Morgan benched, or the play in Florida the night before the brawl?

I agree with you Joe, they should have had him shut up and wait for the league to suspend and fine him, not add fuel to hte fire. I haven't read any comments from Riggleman on the incident. Anyone see them?

[Joe Cowley]

Supposedly he called Dan Uggla a girlie-man....

[Joe Cowley]

Today's comment from Riggles:

"They made the decision to throw at Nyjer -- they did and then the question is do we throw at them," Riggleman said. "I got some of my veteran players together and said, 'It's your ballclub, if you want someone getting thrown at, I'll order it right now,' and everybody said, 'No, it's over.' That being the case, when they threw at him a second time, then it's not over."

[R.Billingsly]

I'm glad Morgan stole 2B. I'm glad he stole 3B. I'm glad he ran over catchers. But, those incidents are red herrings. The guy is a reported a-hole. Those incidents were simply the last straw. That's the way I see it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hypothetically, it's like if the Phillies threw at Jose Reyes (even though Reyes is more of a showboat than an a-hole) after Reyes had a week of pumping chests, cartwheeling around the bases and taunting fans. Would anyone on this board defend Reyes and say the Phils were out of line? I highly doubt it.

[NEPP]

Reyes is a classy well disciplined likeable guy compared to Nyjer Morgan.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Never mind. Found some of his comments at yahoo. refreshingly, he owns up to telling Slaten to plunk Sanchez in the 7th.

[Dukes]

Someone brought up Cliff Lee in jest a few posts ago and I think it's really worth a discussion. How much air was blown this year on here talking about how bad that trade was and now that he might be hurt into the postseason we don't even bring it up? Sure, this does not make the trade a good trade in any way, but just think if we had him and Halladay and no Oswalt (which is what it would have been). Or if we would have decided to give him the contract he wanted and not gotten Halladay at all. We wouldn't be talking wild card then, we'd be talking draft picks for next year. In sum, not a good trade, but feeling fortunate right now.

[Willard Preacher]

RBill, per Wheeler, Reyes is a toolsy, class act and we'd be very lucky to have him on our team. Why on earth would we see fit to throw at such a specimen of baseball greatness?

(tongue firmly in cheek)

[Bubba]

WP- Even for Wheels, that's dumb.