Phils lose; C.C. the Brewer; Cole snubbed; vote Pat

There's plenty to discuss on a busy Monday morning. Here’s a synopsis.

Game summary: The Phillies lost to the Mets 4-2 in 12 innings in a game that included a 2 hour and 50 minute rain delay. The Phils needed a miracle two-out, two-run Jayson Werth home run off Billy Wagner in the bottom of the ninth to get it that far, but in the end, it all boiled down to two things. First, Oliver Perez was very good. Second, the Phils had too many poor at bats and couldn’t deliver with men on base; they left 29 men stranded. Give Perez credit for once. From what I saw, he was exceptional.

Sabathia: The Brewers are reportedly finalizing a deal to acquire Indians ace C.C. Sabathia for a package of prospects including Matt LaPorta, a power hitting Double-A left fielder. Sabathia is 6-8 with a 3.83 ERA for the Tribe. LaPorta is hitting .288 with 20 homers and 66 RBIs for Huntsville. The deal is also said to include one or two Milwaukee pitching prospects, believed to be Rob Bryson and Zach Jackson. The Phils were reportedly among the clubs in hottest pursuit of Sabathia and will now turn their attention to Seattle’s Eric Bedard and Toronto’s A.J. Burnett.

Hamels out: Phillies ace Cole Hamels will not join teammates Chase Utley and Brad Lidge when they visit the Bronx for the mid-summer classic. Among the suspect inclusions to Clint Hurdle’s club are Brian Wilson and, yeah, Billy Wagner and his six blown saves. It's a sigh of relief for the Phils, however. Hamels is scheduled to pitch right after the All-Star game.

Burrell needs help: Phillies outfielder Pat Burrell is a final vote candidate for the National League All-Star Team. He’s getting my vote for sure, but the field is stacked with popular stars, including David Wright, Carlos Lee, Aaron Rowand and Corey Hart. [Vote here] 

Comments

[GM-Carson]

It's time for the Phils Internet community to step up and vote Pat Burrell on to the NL All-Star squad as the final vote. Go to almost any Phils blog today and you'll see some sort of "Vote for Burrell" push going on and that's encouraging.

[baxter]

If the Phils topped the Brewers offer, they would've gutted their system and sabotaged their future for a 1/2 year rental. I'm glad this deal didn't happen.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Cubs seeking Rich Harden per MLBTR. With CC, are the Brew Crew the NL team to beat?

[Reed]

Cole deserved a spot, but I am glad he will not be pitching. He's been a workhorse this year and time off only helps.

[UD Hens]

It looks like Chase will be in the Home Run Derby. Not necessarily a good thing. I hope he doesn't mess up his swing by uppercutting on the ball to hit it out.

[Jack]

Hamels clearly deserved a spot on the roster, but I can't say I'm disappointed. I've been saying for a little while now that he has been used A LOT over the first few months, and could use some time off. I wish that we had some sort of cushion and/or pitching depth and could afford to give Hamels a couple of starts off sometime, but with the way he's pitching and the way the division race is tightening up, I don't see that being possible. Which is a shame.

[BobbyD]

I pointed out last night that the Phils would play the Brewers and Sabathia/Sheets in the Divisional Series if the season ended today.

[Bubba]

I hope the Phils sign Burrell to a new contract and he gets the last All Star spot.

[denny b.]

Les Walrond fanned 17 batters yesterday at AAA. Les Walrond did that? Same guy that is basically a career minor leaguer, and was 2-7 coming into yesterday's game. Talk about coming out of far left field.

Not even a full moon either.

Also, Donald had 4 more hits at AA. That guy can hit. He'd be a guy (along with Golson) I would bring up in September. Much better than watching Ruiz or Taguchi up there pinch-hitting, late in games.

and Outman has been pitching much better (and been getting the ball over the plate) in his past several outings out of the pen. His season ERA is now getting close to 3

He won't help this year, but hopefully by 09', Outman could be a candidate for the big club. Just needs to consistantly find the strikezone. When he does, his stuff is more than good enough.

Also, anyone heard how Matt Smith's rehab appearances have been going?

[J. Weitzel]

Again, the papers run with the Brett Myers angle the morning after Lidge gets extended. Both Hofmann and Ford. The Phils just locked in an all-star closer for three more years. He's twice the pitcher Myers has ever been over his career. It's all about Lidge and the Phils. Not the other guy.

[Non A-hole Mets Fan]

I have been trying to get a question answered for the last couple days, but no Phillie fans where I am at (South Dakota) can help me out. So I came here.

Why does Manuel always remove Burrell late in the game? And, could the fact that he does get lifted alot for a runner have caused him to lose a few votes in the All-Star balloting?

[Marc H]

Our "Bigs" (Utley, Howard and Rollins) play small in big games. Believe it or not, we might need another bat as well. Tonight is an important game. There is a big difference beween a split and the Mets taking 3 of 4 on the road.

[Willard Preacher]

Jason, good point. Hopefully the Lidge signing helps it hit home for Myers. His future is not as the closer for the Phillies. I see it panning out one of two ways - he accepts this and gets his head screwed on straight down in AAA or he butts heads with the Phils FO and forces a trade. For some reason, I'd have to bet on the latter, which might not be a bad thing. The sad part is that his trade value only continues to get worse.

[Mets Fan in Peace]

Rest assured Phills fans, PtB has my vote for the final player. Wright did get snubbed (better numbers than ARam across the board), but Pat got the shaft. As a baseball fan first, I have to reward the man on his great season so far.

I want Pat there, but I think Reyes got snubbed as well. Guzman goes since he's the only Nats rep. Fine. However, look at the numbers between Tejada and Reyes. I know Phills fans don't like how he acts sometimes, but the numbers don't lie.

Let's hope Pedro gives up less than 7 runs tonight....

Good luck.

[jobbers]

When Happ was recalled Hamels pitched on 4-days rest instead of the extra day he would have got if Myers had not been demoted. That allowed the Phillies to get an extra start out of Hamels before the all star break. I believe Hamels now gets to pitch that extra game the Sunday before the all-star game?

I think that persuaded Clint Hurdle not to select Hamels

[mike cunningham]

@Marc H-- do you recall the Mets series last September???

[BobbyD]

To answer the Mets fan's Burrell question: We ask the same question all the time. The stated reason is that it's for speed on the basepaths and a better glove in the outfield. But it really doesn't make much sense. There's plenty of slow, average at best power hitting outfielders that don't get removed from games ona regular basis.

[BobbyD]

I meant to say "average at best fielding"

[bay_area_phan]

denny: I believe Smith has had 3 scoreless 1-inning outings at the GCL. I know nothing about how his stuff has looked, & the GCL basically consists of nothing more than glorified high school hitters. I would be curious to see him pitch at a higer level. I may be a minority of 1 but, if he's healthy, I think he could help the team this year. He looked good during his stint at the end of 2006.

I did my morning duty & voted for Pat 7 or 8 times, but Yahoo already lists Aaron Rowand as the guy voted in by the fans. It's really an outrage that Burrell isn't on the roster. He's having a way better season than any of the 3 starting outfielders. And, as for the reserves . . . Corey Hart? Give me a break. Clint Hurdle must be wearing his sunglasses at night, because you have to be blind to think Corey Hart is having a better season than Burrell.

[bay_area_phan]

Make that "higher," not "higer."

[Jay Chill]

Lets go mets!

[Non A-hole Mets Fan]

@Bobby: Being a Met fan I have seen my fair share of odd coaching ideas, but that is just insane. I, for one, was much more comfortable having Jenkins bat instead of Pat's.

If you pull Burrell for defense and speed on the basepaths, then why not Howard? I think more teams fear Burrell than they do Howard right now.

This practice is just astounding to me. For what it is worth, I hope Charlie keeps it up for at least one more game.

[bay_area_phan]

Oh . . . I guess I misread the roster list on Yahoo. They didn't just list Rowand, but all 5 guys who are subject to the fan vote (how confusing!). And Corey Hart didn't make it; his name is there because he's one of the guys in the fan vote. I wasted my joke, but that's ok since no one under 35, or older than 50, would have gotten it anyhow.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I think i'd take Howard out in the 8th or 9th before Burrell...

[TK]

Bedrosian, AMEN. I can't remember being more furious at a player on a team I root for than I was yesterday with Howard and his lazy 3 pitch K after a 3 hour rain delay.

[J. Weitzel]

Some terrible, terrible cuts yesterday late in the game. Dobbs and Jenkins swinging at total crap. Awful. They need another bench bat. A Russell Branyan type. Taguchi serves no purpose. How about Jay Gibbons or someone like that?

[Willard Preacher]

"Realistically, we might get a piece. Last year, we got [Kyle] Lohse, who was just kind of, you want to say, on the B-list last year . . . We might not come up with a headliner but we might come up with a guy off of the B-list that might help us." - Pat Gillick

Ugh. Not going to get it done in a playoff series, Pat.

The good news is that Pat Gillick is alive and well!

[Willard Preacher]

Taguchi on deck as the last available positional player to pinch hit speaks volumes about how they feel about his erosion of talent. Using Jenkins as a pinch runner doesn't exactly inspire confidence in So. What the hell are they waiting for?

As an aside, I'd have had Hamels in the on deck spot before Taguchi. Even when down by two.

[Marc H]

Let's live in the present. The Mets have more than handled us in direct competition this year. I see the Mets as being like the 1983 Phillies. A veteran team that will hang in there for the whole season and make a late dash.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

Wright will almost certainly be the final NL guy...everyone loves him for some reason. As for Sabathia...is anyone really surprised? Seriously?

[TK]

I was 1 in 1983, but I am assuming that the '83 Phillies had a lot more heart than the '08 Mets.

[Marc H]

Like this current Mets group, the 1983 Phillies were an impressive collection of aging stars who hovered around .500 most of the season. No one put them away and they sprinted to a Division Title and the National League Chmapionship. I see the Mets as fitting s similar profile.

[Mets Fan in Peace]

@NEPhilliesPhan:

"Everyone" loves him because he's a great all-around player, and is a basically a model citizen.

However, like I said before, Burrell got snubbed even more, and thus he gets my vote.

Ideally Soriano drops out, they replace him with Pat, then Wright wins the vote. I'd be a happy man.

[bay_area_phan]

I know some of you don't believe in the notion of "big games" but, in purely mathematical terms, today's game is, quite simply, the biggest game of the year. We entered the series with a healthy 4.5 game lead over the Mets. If we win, it's still at 4.5. If we lose, it's down to a paltry 2.5 -- after being at 7.5 just a couple weeks ago.

In less empirical terms, a loss today would be our 7th series loss in the last 8. It would mean that the Braves series meant nothing and that we merely beat up an injury-ravaged team, but are still playing like crap. It would mean that, whatever may have happened in 2007, the Mets completely have our number this year -- having won 5 of 7 games against us. And it would mean a huge boost in momentum for the Mets, and a huge blow to the Phillies' collective psyches.

The Phillies have the look of a team that is in total free-fall. The only difference between what we're seeing the Phillies do, and what the Mets did last year is that the Phillies' collapse is happening in mid-season. If they lose again tonight, I expect them to be looking up by the Mets by the All Star break. Fortunately, we've got the great Adam Eaton on the mound to stamp out this fast-spreading fire.

[mike cunningham]

I voted for Burrell a ton of times... I felt like they weren't stopping me at 25...

Wright deserves to be on the team, though... ack... sorry, bad taste in my mouth from saying that...

[stevo]

I only saw the first inning of yesterday's game, but didn't I hear that Perez threw 29 pitches in the first inning. I couldn't believe it when I tuned in later and saw him still pitching in the sixth. There must have been some really poor plate appearances against him the rest of the way. He usually never goes past five against the Phils, though he give up few hits and runs.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

MC: does Burrell not "deserve to be on the team". Forget DW for now.

[Jack]

Wright is the better overall player, but Pat deserves the all-star selection this year. No doubt about it. If he isn't first in line to replace Soriano (who won't play because of injury), then it is absolutely ridiculous.

Agreed that Reyes should have made the team over Tejada- he's the better player.

Also, Hamels should clearly have made the team over either Wagner or Brian Wilson from San Fran. The Giants already had Lincecum on the roster- who in their right mind decided that Brian Wilson was a better pitcher than Cole Hamels? As I said before, it's fine by me since Cole needs the rest, but he deserves to be an All-Star.

[Marc H]

Amen, Bay Area Phan. Well done!!

[Willard Preacher]

Part of me hopes that PtB doesn't make the All Star team. It might be tougher to re-sign Pat Burrell, All Star.

Although, if JD Drew is making an AS appearance, I'd like Pat to be there.

[Mets Fan in Peace]

@Jack

Agreed on all counts. Both Wright and Burrell got snubbed, but Burrell even moreso, so he gets my vote.

Wagner had to be there as the Mets only rep, but I 100% agree on Wilson. The AS game means something now, so you need to bring the BEST players. Wilson is FAR from the best.

[PhillR]

Phillies fans should be smart and vote against Burrell for the AS team. At least if they want to see his .400+ OBP and lovely 167OPS+ back next year.

Keep him underrated and affordable.

[Mets Fan in Peace]

I can see it now...

"Burrell, angry at Phills fans for not voting him into AS game, leaves as FA"

or

"All-star LF Burrell too costly for Phills, leaves as FA"

Pick your poison. :)

[bay_area_phan]

PhillR/WP: I don't buy that line of argument. Burrell won't make even a dollar more if he makes the AS team, and he won't make a dollar less if he doesn't. Major league GMs aren't that clueless.

[Cipper]

I'm not a fan of the fan voted all stars when the game means something (homefield for WS)...

In most cases i will admit the fans get it right, but i remember early it seemed the the Cubs were just stuffing the ballot boxes, almost ever position player for the cubs was in contention for the allstar team, or atleast had more votes than a clearly better player...

btw... Pat Burrell ranks 3rd in Slugging % amoung outfielders... can you guess the 2 higher?

Steve Pearce of Pittsburgh
(.667 in 3 AB)

And our very own....
TJ Bohn
(.600 in 5 AB)

[bay_area_phan]

Then again, I always used to find it nauseating, yet amusing, how Ed Wade would trade for some marginal journeyman who happened to make one All Star game 10 years prior, and he and Amaro would then trumpet their brilliance for bringing in "a former All Star." So maybe there's at least one GM out there who goes for this stuff -- though undoubtedly more for PR reasons than baseball ones.

[RSB]

bap: it's a big game, no question. The Phillies can't afford to lose yet another series. Thing is, you hate having someone like Eaton being given the ball in such an important game.

For those worried about the home run derby messing up Utley: has anyone noticed that he's essentially been playing home run derby the whole year? He used to use the whole field like Abreu. Those days are gone.

I can understand some of the writers using the Lidge signing as an opportunity to stick their tongues out at Myers. Most of the press must despise him. And the timing - just days after Myers' reiterated comments about preferring the closer's role - does make it a story.

[bay_area_phan]

Actually, Cipper reminded me of something. We really do need to vote Pat onto the team, as it will help us secure home field advantage in the World Series.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

Burrell leads the NL in OPS for outfielders...in a fair world he'd be an all-star and Mclouth wouldn't be but the Pirates needed a rep so he gets relegated to Vote in land. At least Griffey wasn't selected as that would have been a complete joke of a starting OF with Soriano/Fukudome (who has drastically cooled off) and Griffey. Don't get me wrong, I love Griffey but he isn't even close to an AS this season.

[clout]

BAP: Sometimes your emotions get the best of you: "The Phillies have the look of a team that is in total free-fall."

The Phillies just got done sweeping the Braves. They lead their division by 2.5 games.

Are all Beerleaguer posters manic-depressives? I realize your swings are not as extreme and frequent as parker's and Carson's, but still.

[Cipper]

BAP: exactly... my point all along.

[clout]

Jack: No question Reyes is more deserving than Tejada. Also, no one would argue that Brian WEilson is better than Hamels. But Hurdle chose him because he's a reliever and, secondarily, because Hamels wouldn't pitch anyway since he's slated to start the Sunday before the game.

[Alby]

"As for Sabathia...is anyone really surprised? Seriously?"

Yes. I'm surprised the Phillies were even involved, and that their bid was taken seriously.

"Major league GMs aren't that clueless."

Are you sure? Check Andruw's contract again...

[clout]

WP: "Although, if JD Drew is making an AS appearance, I'd like Pat to be there."

What's one got to do with the other?

[NEPhilliesPhan]

absolutely nothing...I thought it a joke that the AL players picked Varitek who has been brutal in every aspect of the game other than calling the game...he's batting around .220 I think and striking out a ton...probalby shouldn't be an AS.

[bay_area_phan]

clout asks: "Are all Beerleaguer posters manic-depressives?"

What amazes me is that there are actually long-time Phillies fans out there who AREN'T manic-depressives. Alright, I'm given to hyperbole. But suffice it to say, tonight is a very important game for July, both in purely mathematical terms as well as emotional ones. If they lose 3 of 4 to the Mets -- after winning Game 1, no less -- it will completely erase whatever kernel of good will that I developed during the Braves series.

[donc]

Some things just aren't fair. JD Drew an all star but not Pat Burrell? It reminds me of the fact that Bobby Abreu owns a gold glove and Rico Brogna doesn't. Having said that, I could care less about the all star game. It's a shame that it's outcome now has a bearing on post season play, however.

[bay_area_phan]

alby: That's a bad analogy -- although I suspect you were being tongue in cheek. Jones didn't get that contract because of how many All Star appearances he has had. He got that contract because of his past performance, and because Brian Sabean believed 2007 to be a fluke.

Frankly, if I were going to make a list of stupid contracts, the Andruw Jones contract wouldn't make my list. Jones's 2007 season was kind of like Ryan Howard's 2008 season -- lots of walks, good power numbers, terrible average. When a guy is only 31, and has a very strong track record, it's reasonable to gamble that this type of season was a one-year anomaly. The Dodgers bet a lot of money on this gamble, but it's only a 2-year contract. And I'm still not convinced that their bet was inaccurate. Obviously Jones has been terrible this year, but it turns out he needed knee surgery. I wouldn't be surprised to see some serious reversion to career norms during the second half of 2008 and again in 2009.

[Cipper]

Any see yesterday during the game the stump the fans question? the last philadelphia player to hit for the cycle was david bell... does anyone else find that funny? ... i find it even more funny that i actually remembered it.

[BobbyD]

I don't like the line of thinking where "The Phillies won because the other team stinks." Then, "The Phillies lost because they stink." Sometimes the Phillies win because they play well. And sometimes the Phillies lose because there's another team on the field.

[dajafi]

This is an important game, but I had the feeling the Mets would win three of four going in, and Pedro is due for a good game after getting smacked around in St. Louis last week.

The Mets' success against the Phils this year is probably a combination of fluke (close games go either way by definition), regression to the mean (we certainly won a bunch of freak ones against them last year), the Mets' "ADD" (they focus against the Phillies in a way they don't against, say, San Diego or Colorado), and their clearly better starting pitching (there wasn't one game in this series where we had the edge, or even equivalency, in the starting matchup).

[Alby]

BAP: "I wouldn't be surprised to see some serious reversion to career norms during the second half of 2008 and again in 2009."

I would. But even if he does, I think it's a bad deal to give an aging outfielder coming off his worst season $18 million per year. But I was being tongue in cheek; his was simply the worst contract on the tip of my tongue, in my cheek....ah, you know what I mean.

By the way, some players have All-Star clauses in their contracts, so it's more likely to make a difference to a player's current GM than a future one.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

J.W: Perhaps you were being scarcastic about the need for a guy like Branyon or Gibbons?

The Phils problem right now is that they have too many guys that are like Branyon. Howard is doing his best Branyon impression v.s. LH. On top of that, they don't have enough guys that make contact.

Jason Stark's assesment of the Phils at the beginning of the season: "I think they will win the East. Now I don't know if they make enough contact to do anything in the playoffs."

This actually seems like a prophetic comment. If the Phils don't get someone who consistently can make contact in pressure situations (Particularly in the lower part of the order), they will flounder at certain times, such as the last few weeks.

Teams that succeed in the playoffs usually have certain consistencies.
1.) At least 2 very good starters
2.) Good bullpens
3.) At least a couple of power hitters
4.) Guys at the bottom of the lineup who make contact consistently. (BTW: Ruiz dribblers do not count here. They have to be able to make contact actually has a chance to go where a defender is not).

[Reed]

The Mets had their way with the Phils last year until the Phils swept out the last bunch. Hopefully, that will happen again this year. The Phils seemed to have turned the corner overall after the 3/4 the Mets took last year at the bank in July (I think).

That being said, there are still glaring weaknesses that must be addressed. Jenkins and Ruiz add zero production and Taguchi is wasting a spot. But, with all this and then some (SP, RP), JRoll, Utley & Howard have to step up and carry the team. They have to produce and produce off of quality pitchers on a consistent basis. Duh, right?

Safe to say that Werth will be playing every day and Dobbs needs a start tonight. Jerry Manuel has outmanaged Cholly in thid series and has essentially eliminated Dobbs from having any impact off the bench.

Pat Burrell os 0-20 off Pedro in his career and Jenkins is 0-8.

[RSB]

Jones' contract was a bad one no matter how youyslice it. The truly puzzling thing is that the Dodgers didn't even need another OF. They've been intent on delaying the progress of Matt Kemp and Andre Ethier forever, and they still had Juan Pierre in tow. And they should have been much more leery of the fact that a swing-for-the-fences type of game doesn't play well in Dodger Stadium. Jones is one of the most exasperating players in the game - a guy who was clueless at the plate for years, finally seemed like he figure it out, only to revert to atrocious habits and the hitting acumen of an A-baller. I disagree with you, bap - his skills couldn't be any more in decline, and he's one of the all-time free agent busts.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

I predict an Andruw Jones reversion, as soon as MLB gets lax on testing for PED's.

BTW: There is one reason I'm not completely surprised that Chase is leading the league in HR, less PED's.

[bay_area_phan]

alby: Make that Ned Colletti, not Brian Sabean. I tend to confuse them, since Colletti was Sabean's right-hand man in San Francisco &, when they were interviewed on the radio, their voices sounded exactly alike.

I'm not sure I'd call a 31-year old outfielder "aging" but I do agree with you that $18M is pretty steep. Still, the Dodgers have plenty of money to throw around. The most important thing is that, if it's a bad contract, they won't be saddled with it for very long. They probably overpaid but, viewed at the time the contract was made, it seemed like an ok risk.

[J. Weitzel]

Parker: No. What skill does Taguchi offer? He's not even replacing Burrell defensively anymore. A home run threat - no matter how one-dimensional - would be a better use of that bench spot, no?

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

Davethom: "Jaramillo -- at this stage of his development -- would not hit even at Ruiz's present production in the big leagues."

Do you really think this is possible?

If that is true, I advise him to retire, and go to school. Get out of baseball and do what the rest of the world does when they hit with the skill of Carlos Ruiz, get a real job.

[B-Mac]

To fill two needs on offense, I wouldn't mind them going after a guy like Scott Podsednik who provides speed off the bench, defense and solid contact.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

JW: Oh, I agree Taguchi is doing nothing. It was also telling that Cholls didn't use him yesterday, despite his great numbers against Perez. My point was only that a Branyon type is not the need. They have plenty of swing and miss power guys. That was my only point.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

I said earlier that Randy Winn looks like he belongs in a Phillies uniform. I just looked up his salary and he is making over $8 million this season. This might conflict with the Phillies Phrugal budget. I now see him in a Red Sox or Yankee's uniform, although, he would be perfect for the Phils "needs." Unfortunately, that is not the only consideration for this team.

[flipper]

BAP"

"The Phillies have the look of a team that is in total free-fall."

Well, at least you can take some solace that Happ hasn't started his "downward spiral" yet. Only a matter of time, however. No doubt.

Last ten games?

Phils: 5-5
Fish: 5-5
Muts: 5-5
Braves: 4-6

As long at the other contending teams are "free-falling" along with the Phils, they'll still make the playoffs. Not good enough if they don't win in the playoffs, but that ain't likely to happen if they don't pick up a #2, and that's looking increasingly unlikely.

[Clay Dalrymple]

I too think big game tonight, even if only July. At least that's what I told my girlfriend, explaining why we couldn't have a "date" tonight. Hope Adam Eaton gets luckier than I will.

[Marc H]

The Phillies need to wake up; it's getting late early.

[Brian G]

From earlier in the thread: I don't have a major issue with the substitutions of Burrell late in the game. I don't think they're done solely for defense and baserunning, but also to keep Burrell fresh throughout the season. Feliz is slow on the basepaths, but Burrell hobbles. It makes sense to limit the strain on the body of a guy like Burrell, who obviously has health issues with his feet. Of course I'd rather have him up there than Jenkins in extra innings, but I believe Cholly understands the tradeoff he's making.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

Just for purposes of comparison:

Phillies Hypothetically
1.) Hamels 1.) Hamels
2.) Moyer (3)? 2.) Burnett (or) Bedard
3.) Happ (2)? 3.) Moyer (or) Myers
4.) Kendrick 4.) Happ (or) Myers
5.) Eaton 5.) Kendrick (or) Eaton

Brewers:
1.) Sheets
2.) Sabathia
3.) Jeff Suppan
4.) Many Parra
5.) Dave Bush

Their 4 guy could be the Phil's 2 guy as presently constituted.

[Willard Preacher]

Francona has the right idea. If this game actually determines HFA for the World Series, why NOT stock up on relief pitchers, rather than rely on starters in spots they're not used to? Might as well play to win the game, as long as your team has a shot to be in the WS.

I think that WS HFA is assinine for the All-Star game, unless they do away with Fan voting and the "every team has to be represented" aspects. How sad is it that the Phils title hopes could come down to a Cristian Guzman AB? (I know it's a far stretch).

clout, as far as the JD Drew comment, I was simply thinking that their careers have taken similar paths. Both very highly touted power/RBI guys. One went with the Phils, one did not. PtB has been slightly less injured, hence better career numbers. Both are extremely streaky hitters. Both deserve it this year. To have one and not the other would be a disappointment in my eyes.

[RSB]

JW: agree completely about Taguchi. Can't believe they took action on Myers before they finally got around to addressing the 25th man. It's almost as if they feel like it's somehow complimentary to the roster to have one pitcher and one position player who are only used when the score is out of whack.

[Mr. Mack]

- W. Preacher: Some great posts today. I agree that PtB should be an All Star, but I was thinking the same thing about re-signing him might be somewhat tougher because of it. I don't hold out much hope however when it comes to Burrell returning, partly because there is never any mention at all of it from the FO. As I have stated here in the past, the FO said early this season that PtB was not likely to fit into their long term plans, beyond this year. I wonder now if they feel that their statement may have been a little premature, since there are really very few, if any, options to replace his production, especially from the right side of the plate.

- "Realistically, we might get a piece. Last year, we got [Kyle] Lohse, who was just kind of, you want to say, on the B-list last year . . . We might not come up with a headliner but we might come up with a guy off of the B-list that might help us." - Pat Gillick

Wow, now that quote really has me pumped up about their trade possiblities in the next few weeks. I may not be able to sleep at night until the trade deadline. What is that about? It's like Gillick is sitting at the table holding a pair of fours and just hoping everybody has been dealt a crappy hand. Either that or maybe everyone else just folds and he gets to grab the pot. Statements like that are what aggravate me about this franchise. Either your in or your out. I always feel as if they never give it a full shot. One can only hope that he is bluffing, because that type of attitude just won't get it done this year.

[Reed]

although it puts the NL on the road, HFA for the WS should be determined by the interleague results, not an exhibition game.

[clout]

Brian G: Burrell is faster than Feliz. Not even close. Have you been watching the games this season? Burrell was slower last year when he was battling his foot problem. He's a step quicker this season.

[Reed]

if only Burrell's speed matched the effort. he pumps his arms and rocks his head...kinda like Rocky racing against Creed.

Burrell running is what you see in the dictionary when you look up "lumbering".

[clout]

Parker: "Brewers:
1.) Sheets
2.) Sabathia
3.) Jeff Suppan
4.) Many Parra
5.) Dave Bush

Their 4 guy could be the Phils 2 guy as presently constituted."

Yes their #4 guy could be our #2 but only if you rank the Brewers rotation backwards!
ERA+
Moyer 108
Kendrick 101
Eaton 93

Parra 117
Suppan 92
Bush 91

The Phillies #2, 3 and 4 are better than the Brewers #4 and #5.

[clout]

Reed: Ruiz is faster than both Burrell and Feliz. Coste might be slower.

[Brian G]

Clout: I can't say for sure who'd win a foot race, but it's certainly not blatantly clear that Burrell is faster than Feliz.

Anyway, my point had nothing to do with who was faster. My point was that Feliz is just naturally slow, whereas Burrell looks like he is struggling when he runs, which is what you'd expect from a guy who's had chronic foot problems. And when a guy has chronic foot problems, it's a defendable strategy to limit the stress he puts on his foot on a day to day basis.

[Hibachi]

I don't really mind the Gillick quote about not getting a headliner. The only headliner I was really interested in was Bedard, but seeing his start against the Tigers over the weekend and then the news that he'd be bumped back, again, I could go either way on that.

With Sabathia, it would have cost too much, one of the Cleveland sites reporting that they asked for Carrasco and the Phillies wouldn't put him in. The only trade worthwhile to put Carrasco in would probably be Bedard, but not for a half year of Sabathia. Who else is a headliner out there? Only AJ Burnett would really fit the bill and he's having a rough season and has always been up or down. Rich Harden? Too costly and more of an injury risk than Bedard.

To me, it's somewhat encouraging that Gillick isn't going to go out and get a headliner just for the sake of getting one. It's got to be the right move, too.

[Willard Preacher]

Reed, I like the IL idea, but again, the fortunes of the NL's best team would fall into the hands of many, many other teams who don't have the same interest in IL success.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

I'd take Kendrick over Jeff Suppan too. Suppan is a known name...nothing more. Supposedly they asked for eithre Marson or Carrasco and were told neither were available in a trade for Sabathia. I don't know if that means unavailable for any trade or simply for a rental.

[pb]

I'd like Phils get Winn to platoon with Werth also. He's the type of player the Phils need. He can field, run, he's the exact opposite of Jenkins. He actualy has an approach at the plate.

how about these deals?

Phils trade Jarmillo and another prospect to SF for Winn

Phils trade Myers 08-8M 09-12M
Jenkins 08-5M 09-6.75M 10-7.5M w/1.25M BO (assuming they buy out Jenkins in 2010) Total salary 33Millon to the Brewers

Suppan 08-8M 09-12.5M 10-12.5 11-12.75 w/2M BO (He's not exactly setting the world on fire right now but his ERA post AS break was 4.12 in 07 and from 05-07 it was 3.09)

TURNBOW 08-3.2M 09-ARB (yes I know he's stinking it up in AAA and may never make it back to the majors but I'm just swapping contracts)

Total salary assuming they buy out Suppan in 2011 38.2M

I think it would make them slightly better. I'd do it just so I never have to hear how much Myers wants to be a closer again and so I never see Jenkins bat again in a phils uniform.

[Jack]

Parker: Actually, teams successful in the playoffs usually have three things in common:

1) Strong defense
2) High Strikeout pitchers
3) A dominant closer

BP did a comprehensive study on playoff teams and found these to be the only qualities that had a significant correlation with post-season success.

[Reed]

Clout, prob true about Ruiz being faster. I assume you are using Ruiz-07, as Ruiz hasn't been on base since then.

Sarcasm aside, yesterday was Chooch's first hit since June 18.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

Clout: I didn't pick the order. That is how they have them listed.

Is it really saying much that the Phillies 2, 3, and 4 are better than their 4 and 5?

Also, I am not convinced that Dave Bush or Jeff Suppan are worse pitchers than Kyle Kendrick or Adam Eaton. If anything Kendrick/Eaton = Bush/Suppan except Kendrick doesn't have their K numbers. Either way, if this was a playoff rotation, Suppan and Bush would be stored away in some dark corner, whereas Kendrick or Eaton would be in full light, much to the Phillies embarrassment.

[Bill]

I agree about making sure Burrell makes this team. He absolutely deserves it. Vote early and often!

I have to say I feel like here we go again with the Phillies missing out on a trade. Sure we may still get Bedard or Burnett, but more than likely we will get another mediocre pitcher like we always do.

Now it appears we need to make another deal for a set up man. We absolutely need a back up plan for Tom Gordon.

http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/phightin_phils_phorum

http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/turnpike_series

[mike cunningham]

@Mr. Mack, I hate to bring up a sore point for you... since you were miffed that anyone would possibly question your recollection of an interview heard only on radio by seemingly only you... Here is what David Montgomery said about Pat Burrell after the Lidge signing:

"We've stated that we want to keep Pat here," said David Montgomery, Phillies president and CEO. "It's just a question of having a meeting of the minds. I think he likes it here, and we want him here. We'll see."

Now granted that is not an endorsement of that that they are going to do every thing they possibly can do to keep him here. When you were called on your "recollection" that the Philliers were NOT going to even OFFER Burrell a contract, you wavered slightly on the quote, where Gillick or Amaro said it would be "difficult" to sign him or some other vaguery like Burrell would not accept a pay cut or that Burrell being an "older player" and "defensive liability" would be the odd man out, which I guess to you is GM Speak for we are NOT going to sign him. Now you are saying they are "not likely to sign" him which is quite off base from your original argument, which was and I quote: "
On a seperate note, I have seen Phillies management quoted on numerous occasions say that it is almost a certainty that PtB will not be back next year, as they will not likely offer him another deal. " Okay, you couched it in more vagueries, but we get the point.

Anyway... Monty's quote, seems to me, that they will consider a deal for Burrell. Whether that matches the market value or what Burrell will accept as a Hometown discount is another story. I believe that an Aaron Rowand contract is what the market might be for Burrell (Maybe quite more.) I think the Phillies will offer a contract, that will be smaller in years and less in cash than Burrell would want and he will be gone...

Most front offices don't like negotiating in the press or showing their hand. In this case however, both the team and the player have expressed their desire for Burrell to be here next year. The details will just have to work itself out.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Anyone think Bedard's "shoulder soreness" is more of a "think twice about trading for me aching"?

[NEPhilliesPhan]

Whoever mentioned Derrick Turnbow...I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot stick. Those wacky relievers seldom have a good second life in baseball and he's got all sorts of mental issues...on the rest Why in the world would the Brewers even consider that deal?

As for Burrell, he could probably get a HUGE contract to be a DH in the American League. His offensive numbers are among the best in baseball for OFs and his OBP his a huge plus for many teams...Toronto, KC, Tampa, NY, and SEA would be good fits off the top of my head. All will need DH's next season other than maybe NY who might resign Giambi.

[Inside/Outside the Parker]

Jack: How far does that study go back? I don't recall a WS team in the past 4 or 5 years that didn't have a couple of thumper's in the lineup.

If that study has any truth to it, then the Phils are substantially deficient in which category? Hint: I'm not hiding the ball here, and neither are they.

[flipper]

"Parker: Actually, teams successful in the playoffs usually have three things in common:

1) Strong defense
2) High Strikeout pitchers
3) A dominant closer"

Did they actually control for the variable of good pitchers that aren't high strikeout pitchers, or wild pitchers who also have a high strikeout rate? Obviously, lots of strikeouts and good pitchers are pretty correlated qualities, and I doubt that there are many high strikeout pitchers that don't excel in other metrics also, but it would seem that good sinkerballers that induce a lot of groundouts would do pretty well in the playoffs.

[Reed]

Bed Beard, maybe he is trying to stick it to Seattle by lowering his value.

I heard that Bedard is a "bad" guy, but is there any evidence of that? I haven't seen anything.

On the rotation, I know it was only one start, but I really liked Happ's stuff. I am looking forward to his next one. I wonder if Eaton is looking over his shoulder at him as they seem to want Brett back in the rotation. That should make tonight's start for Eaton all the more important.