Stark adds Borowski, Seanez to the look-see list

In his latest Rumblings and Grumblings, ESPN’s Jayson Stark cites baseball sources in his report that Joe Borowski and Rudy Seanez have been offered minor league contracts with invites to spring training. [Link]

Readers recall that Borowski, 37, was offered a contract by the Phils once before in 2007 until they reduced the offer under the advice of doctors. Borowski balked and went to Cleveland instead where he led the league in saves (45). (Borowski generated approximately 3 million inches of commentary in our discussion threads that season as the Phils struggled to find answers in their own bullpen). Indians fans would claim Borowski also led the league in headaches, making an adventure out of many 9th innings. He entered 2008 as the Tribe’s closer, and after missing a month with a triceps injury, he not only lost the closer job, he lost his job completely, getting the pink slip July 10 and remaining unemployed the rest of the season. In 12 seasons, he’s 22-24 with a 4.18 ERA and 131 saves.

There’s no need to go into much detail on Rudy Seanez, who posted a workman-like 3.53 ERA (30/25 K/BB ratio) in 43.3 innings with the world champs. The 40-year-old was used sparingly by season’s end and missed time with a dead shoulder. Readers will recall that J.A. Happ beat him out of a spot on the playoff roster despite having no bullpen experience. Seanez is a good pro with lots of experience and underrated strikeout totals, but he’s nearly cooked and has been flirting with retirement, according to previous reports.

Stark also lists the usual suspects of righty bats and lefty arms while reaffirming the Phillies’ interest in Moises Alou.

Comments

[NEPP]

Do we really need another back of the bullpen Righthand Arm? I mean what would be the point of either Borowski or Seanez? I'd rather have Condrey out there than either one of those two.

[doubleh]

Remember the huff Borowski was in when the Phillies lowered their offer...he said some disparaging things about the organization. It turns out the Phils actually saved themselves in the process.

I can't imagine he'd accept after all of that, but he'd be a long shot to make the big club.

As for Rudy, his best days are probably behind him.

[J. Weitzel]

Seanez was a good pickup. Basically the entire bullpen avoided major meltdowns and long stretches of ineffectiveness. Seanez served a meaningful purpose.

[Andy]

JOE BOROWSKI!!!!!!!

[GM-Carson]

Seanez most definitely fulfilled a meaningful role last year. I'm very appreciative of what he gave the club.

All this talk of another bullpen arm and righty bench bat leads me to believe both will get done. Rube wouldn't openly admit this if he weren't serious about stocking the team with depth. Honestly the roster is good to go now, and anybody that Rube adds only will help.

[NEPP]

Seanez was definitely worthwhile last year. His 40+ IPs with a good ERA provided a nice boost and I am quite appreciative. That said, I have little interest in seeing him back again for another go round. We should fill this slot the same way we got Seanez...DFAs at the end of ST.

[MG]

Seanez was exactly the kind of guy the Phils had refused to sign during Gillick's first two offseason - a journeyman middle reliever who was still useful but wasn't available at the veteran league minimum.

If the Phils do sign another veteran bullpen arm ala Seanez last year - does that mean that Condrey has to earn a spot on the roster again for opening day?

Maybe not especially if Park wins a spot in the rotation but I do think automatically handling a spot to Condrey would be a mistake if there is viable competition in camp.

[J. Weitzel]

I would take Condrey over Seanez based on the fact that Condrey can pitch multiple innings. But if I was looking for one crucial inning of shutdown baseball and workload was not an obstacle, I'd take Seanez hands down.

[philsphan]

Seanez should probably just retire but I wouldn't mind if the Phillies gave him a minor league deal. He did help out make our bullpen last year one of the best in the bigs and by far the best in recent phillies history.

[philsphan]

Seanez should probably just retire but I wouldn't mind if the Phillies gave him a minor league deal. He did help out make our bullpen last year one of the best in the bigs and by far the best in recent phillies history.

[clout]

Two years too late on Joe. Could've used him in 2007, though.

[donc]

I'm glad to see Seanez get some appreciation here. I thought his contribution last year was a little under rated. Sure he burned out early. And he probably is just about finished. But without his 40 innings, everybody else would have had to pick up the slack. A lot of that slack probably would have fallen on Chad Durbin. If he hit the wall say a month earlier than he did would things have turned out as they did? I'm glad we didn't have to find out. Besides, I'd never complain about these non-roster deals. Not much down side.

[clout]

I have to believe what we are seeing here are vets for the LV bullpen, who would be available in case of emergency.

[MG]

Condrey is one of those guys who don't think much about but he is likely going to get a bunch of work again if he can stick with the Phils all season.

Still, if you look at his numbers they all suggest a guy who should have posted a much higher ERA. He has poor K/9 and K/BB numbers with pretty spotty control. Results in a pretty high WHIP even for a middle reliever.

The one odd thing that does stand out is that his rate of GB has gone noticeably up while his rate of LD has gone down the past 3 seasons. I have no idea why but it didn't seem to effect his BABIP much.

My bet is that if Condrey can keep his BB/9 around 2.5 and keep the ball down enough so that he gets a GB/FB ratio over 2, he will remain effective enough to keep his spot in the pen even though I would be surprised for him to have an ERA at least a full run higher this season either.

If the Phils can get 60-65 innings out of him with an ERA that is passable for a backend bullpen guy (say under 4.50), then he will have some value to this team.

My bet is that Condrey isn't nearly as lucky this year and that he sees a dramatic rise in his ERA although he manages to stay with the big league club all season largely because of his ability to pitch multiple innings.

[clout]

MG: Good post on Condrey. I've said it a million times to no effect, but a relief pitcher's ERA is pretty meaningless since: 1. they pitch so few innings that 2 bad appearances can wreck their ERA for the year and 2. they can allow runs galore that get charged to other pitchers. Career ERA is fine, but a single season can be very misleading.

[MG]

Clout - Just about anybody would have helped the Phils bullpen in '07.

I wonder if Jose Mesa is available . . .

[clout]

It also helps if you can keep Condrey from facing lefties, whose career OPS off him is .841 (.818 last year).

[Reverend]

If Borowski, Seanez is offered a minor league deal with an invite to ST and they don't make the big team wouldn't they then be on the AAA club? Or would they be released or traded? Also how much would the Phils have to pay them?
I hope someone can answer this for me.

[MG]

Clout - Condrey is a decent enough reliever with a decent defense behind him. Doesn't give up that many HRs but I hate seeing him come into a game where he has to throw strikes/can't nibble with his offspeed stuff.

Phils seems to agree though and it is amazing the amount of ABs where Condrey has been in a "low leverage" situation the past 2 years. Over 80% of ABs have been in "low leverage" situations.

He also is clearly is a mop-up guy. Of his 56 appearances in 2008, Phils only used him when they were ahead 15 times.

Of those 15 times, 13 were when they were ahead by >4 or more runs and frankly you just need a warm arm in most of these games if it is the 8th or 9th inning to wrap it up.

Condrey was used 32 times when the Phils were behind and half (16 times) of those times the Phils were either 4 or more runs down.

In 2007, the Phils were forced to use Condrey more in closer games though because they really didn't have a better option a bunch of times.

Condrey is basically what a general would call "cannon fodder." You don't necessarily mind chewing him up a bit and you generally use him when you are losing (often in a big way) to preserve more valuable options.

Phils look like they have a pretty good feel on how to use Condrey and the role he plays on this team.

[MG]

If you look at how the Phils have used Condrey the past 2 seasons, I think they have a great handle on how to best use him.

A guy who is strictly a mopup guy who pitches when the Phils are generally losing (especially big-time) or up even bigger.

I was amazed to see the amount of appearances last year where Condrey came into the game where the Phils were up or down by at least 4 runs (39 of his 56 appearances).

[Mike]

In the "Where are they now?" file, Tom Gordon signed with the D-Backs for $500K guaranteed plus incentives. I guess one team's trash is another team's... Flash?

[Bedrosian's Beard]

For you stat guys (sorry if it was posted already):

Sabermetrics the Movie:

If anyone can find the movie in Michael Lewis's MONEYBALL: THE ART OF WINNING AN UNFAIR GAME, it's Steven Soderbergh. As one of the most cerebral directors working and a baseball fan, Soderbergh is uniquely qualified to tell the story of Billy Beane, the eccentric general manager of the Oakland Athletics who devised a statistical system that allowed his small-market team to compete with the loaded, cash-burning likes of the New York Yankees and the Boston Red Sox. Or Soderbergh could give us the cinematic equivalent of THE BILL JAMES BASEBALL ABSTRACT. As a baseball fan myself, either would be fine with me. There's poetry in sabermetrics.

According to Variety, Soderbergh would be joined by Brad Pitt, who's been chasing the project for a year or so. It sounds like the current draft is by Oscar-winner Steve Zaillian, which is encouraging. MONEYBALL would take the place of Soderbergh's delayed Antony-and-Cleopatra rock opera CLEO (scheduling complications knocked out co-lead Hugh Jackman). It's set up at Columbia, and will be produced by Michael De Luca and Rachel Horovitz.

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/40012

[timr]

Just saw both parts of Soderbergh's Che, which was really good, so I'm pretty excited about this little news item.

[Andy]

amount of appearances last year where Condrey came into the game where the Phils were up or down by at least 4 runs

It's (not really) a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.

[AWH]

Personally, I don't care who the Phillies sign for the bullpen - it's their money.
Just give us schlub fans a good product to watch.

Seanez did help some last season, and deserves credit for it. Thanks, Rudy!!!

As I've posted before, Clay Condrey is by no measure a great relief pitcher, but he's better than the 7th man on a lot of MLB teams - or, rather, has been the last three seasons.

Perhaps that's an indictment of the dearth of talent available, but it is nonetheless true.

I noticed on the last thread one of our our most esteemed colleagues was referred to as "Cloutus the 1st".

I knew immediately the confusion and consternation it would create within the man himself, as by word and deed he has always seemed to put himself forth as "Sanctus Cloutus".
.
.
.
.
OTOH, that's a better Latin handle than the one tommyd would be stuck with:

"Leviculus Thomas Puer"

[AWH]

On the previous thread someone posted that the Marlins had inquired about Chris Coste.

I must say I fell a bit vindicated, as I have always maintained and inexpensive backup catcher with a lifetime BA of .288 and a 99 OPS+ has some value.

If the Phils put him on the market he'll generate interest from more than one team.

The fact that the Phillies want to see Paulino first is an obvious indication that they don't know what they've got yet in Paulino, and are unwilling to risk trading a competent backup until they find out.

[AWH]

MLBTR is reporting the Dodgers have signed Wolf. Looks like the Wolfpack will have to make a roadtrip to LALA land.

[AWH]

Also, MLBTR links this blog called the Frontiersman
who is arguing for a Ryan Howard trade.

[mvptommyd]

Awh; Get a life. Your pretty good at the copy and paste functions. I am betting you had to look up those latin words. Anyway, sorry if my opinions and agreeing with most of the front office moves and views this offseason offend you. Its not my fault that the only baseball knowledge you come of is from baseballreference.com and most likely have never even played the game past a little league level. Which explains perfectly why you don't understand that ALL arbiration is bad, why phillies gave contracts to players who in your opinion are already "locked up" and so forth. So stick to your stats buddy because that's all you know about.

[mvptommyd]

Tonight at 8 on hot stove. They are going to break down the phillies and set their chances of repeating.

[MG]

T-minus 8 days and counting . . .

I have to think the Hot Stove will pick up again big time right before/around camps open next week as players/agents scramble to either get a 1-year guaranteed deal or even a spot in training camp.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I don't think it's much of a surprise there is some interest in Coste. What's important is what you can get in return for him.

[MG]

Gordon got 500k. It is essentially the veteran league minimum (with probably plenty of upside). Frankly I am kind of surprised. I thought he would definitely get a deal where he would get a guaranteed minor league deal & salary bump if he made a MLB roster with incentive upside.

[NEPP]

If we trade Coste we'll be lucky to get a AA (B or C type guy) prospect in return. He's a good RH bat but you could just as easily sign Pudge or sign a comparable hitter for cheap in this market.

I think MVP should start his own Phillies blog so he can spread his vast knowledge and educate all us ignorant moron wannabe GMs.

[NEPP]

Oh, Wolfie is a Dodger again. He just signed a 1 year deal to pitch in LA. 1 year, $5.5 million.

That's a fair deal for a league average LH veteran pitcher.

[Joel]

Rudy wasn't too bad. He served a purpose.

[mvptommyd]

Nepp: I was just going to agree on both your latest posts but then you make a remark about blogs. No I will not start a blog because I hate blogs, for all the people who write every stat they can muster up to try to prove their point, when stats aren't EVERYTHING.Also, bloggers are also to worried about the numbers and don't understand the reasoning behind it, so sorry I will enjoy reading my daily news everyday before work and read the sometimes hilarious posts on here.

By the way I went back and on the day the Phillies won the WS and the day of the parade, people like clout, BAP and others were complaining. I mean come on! Ever since then, I refuse to listen to what most have to say on here.

By the way on hot stove they are discussing how intimidating it was to play at the vet compared to the bank. Very interesting.

[NEPP]

You hate blogs??? Yet you post here almost more than I do.

[donc]

If we ignore mvptommyd maybe he'll go away. It probably won't work but I think we should try it. He's so obnoxious that he's either a Mets troll trying to ruin this site or Howard Eskin. Or perhaps Ruben Amaro's mom. Either way, why engage him?

[mvptommyd]

By the way for those interested. Venezuala is playing Mexico for potentially the carribean series. Former phillies farm pitcher is starting for the Venezuala team.

Yea, I post here when I want to eithier agree or dispute something. But it is because blogs are filled with writers who wish they wrote for a paper. And feel that in order to write for baseball you need to do so only on stats or figures, when baseball is so much more complex then that. But if I point that out I get told I am wrong by the pagemaster clout and his minions who patrol this page literally 24/7.

The only reason I am on now is because I took the night off to watch this game with the former phillies farm hand on the mound.

[Sophist]

"you could just as easily sign Pudge or sign a comparable hitter for cheap in this market."

Coste against LHP: .316/.361/.503 (.296/.363/.519 in 2008)

I just don't think there's an easy to acquire comparable hitter out there, if you just look at his OPS and his numbers against LHP (he's 11th in OPS for C with over 600 PA since 2005).

Pudge, your example, hit .276/.319/.394 last year, .289/.343/.381 against LHP.

Try to find an easy to acquire comparable hitter. Greg Zaun is the name that comes to me, but I believe he signed somewhere (he's also left-handed, if it matters.) Not surprisingly, the Marlins were interested in Zaun too, but he ended up signing for $2M. Coste's OPS+ last year was higher than Zaun's.

One major concern is that Coste is a .271/.319/.379 career hitter away from CBP (after an .860 OPS away in '06, he hit .642 last year.)

[Sophist]

Here's the list of C since 2006 by OPS.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/shareit/RhkG

If the Phils were to trade Coste, I think they could do pretty well in return (although I haven't thought much about demand outside of FL).

[MG]

mvp - Baseball (more than any other major professional sport) is driven by numbers and statistics because of the unique 1-on-1 matchups. This isn't like football where there are a bunch of moving parts on each play that have to be broken done/analyzed seperately.

As for the importance of statistics, the one overwhelming trend in baseball the past 20-25 years has been the recognition that there are much more sophisticated methods/analysis that can be done to shed more insight into players and their performance.

A large part of this is due to the ability to utilize computer processors and statistical analytical software but every team now relies upon statistics/sabermetrics in a major way to evaluate players. Teams also use traditional methods too but it is impossible to deny the role that statistics play in baseball today (and our world increasingly we today).

As for writing for a major traditional newspaper, you must be kidding me? If anything this is a profession that faces a very murky future. Just look at the names and writers that have jumped to MLB.com recently including Zolecki.

[NEPP]

Well, Paulino is a career .355 hitter against lefties...so the Phillies were able to acquire someone to replace Coste by giving up a borderline 26 year old AAA catcher in Jaramillo. Coste isn't gonna give us much in return and that's not meant to bash his abilities.

[NEPP]

What would you honestly give up for a 36 year old backup catcher who admits to only being able to handle 1-2 starts a week? As a RH bat, teams will run into the same issue we have, he can only play C and maybe 1B and he cant play everyday.

[Sophist]

NEPP - My point was that there isn't an easily found comparable hitter for cheap, which was your contention. Greg Zaun was one (older, part-time, close in OPS+, maybe a little worse) and he signed for $2M. Is $2M cheap? The Marlins are the team under consideration and $2M was out of their price range so they passed on Zaun.

Maybe they could sign Pudge for less, but he's not a comparable player.

[NEPP]

I'll give you the cost side of it, Sophist. I doubt we get much of anything for him though. I doubt we get much for Stairs either if they end up dealing him. Coste might net us more simply because he is a decent backup catcher and the majors are really thin at catcher right now.

[Andy]

you post here almost more than I do

NEPP - As if it's really possible.

{Like Ryan Howard might about Dunn say, "He strikes out almost more than..." etc)

[Andy]

Again with the "clout's minions" thing, too. What qualifies one to be a minion of clout? Are there, like, college courses? Badges? Crested blazers?

[NEPP]

LOL...good point Andy.

Thankfully we dont have post counts here so I could see the true heights of my loserdom.

[mvptommyd]

All i am saying is stats in the world we live today are the fault of Fantasy baseball. That is why it is called fantasy, because every team does not judge their talent based on solely statistics. And i hate how every point that is made here that is not backed by a stat is responded with the comment, "well what statistic do you have to prove your theory right?".

Also, you are right. Newspapers will be nonexistant in 10 years, but Zolecki is still going to be reporting like a newspaper journalist does only online instead of a daily edition. He has a blog on the side, but his main objective is to write articles for mlb.com that will be presented on phillies.com.

[Sophist]

Premise: Stats aren't everything.
Conclusion: Stats are irrelevant.

?

Is it your contention that every argument here is solely based on stats and evidence from other sources (e.g., scouting) are immediately dismissed?

That has not been my experience on this site. I think generally posters have a handle on the power and limitations of statistics and scouting. Just consider the weekly debate on evaluations of defense.
_________

If Baker can come close to replicating his production last year, a Baker 1 and Coste 2 catcher set-up could be a nice combination for the Marlins.

[Sophist]

All i am saying is stats in the world we live today are the fault of Fantasy baseball. That is why it is called fantasy, because every team does not judge their talent based on solely statistics.

have you ever heard of a non sequitur? I recommend classes in formal logic as well as english composition.

[NEPP]

Not to continue to run into a wall here on statistics: Stats merely quantify what you watch on a day to day basis. There's a reason that FO's are becoming so stat conscious. There's a resaon Bill James is on the BoSox payroll. Stats matter, they prove what you see with your eyes on a day to day basis by watching the games.

Of all sports, Baseball can be broken down by stats because of its nature of one-on-one matchups for the most part.

Take the NFL, statistically there were years where on paper Emmitt Smith appeared to be far superior to Barry Sanders...yet anyone who ever watched both of them play would clearly tell you Sanders is the better RB. Smith had 5 probowlers for an O-line whereas Sanders made plays happen with pure ability.

Baseball isn't like that. Baseball is pitcher vs. hitter, hitter vs. pitcher. You CAN breakdown how good a hitter is against LHP vs RHP or with RISP or how well a pitcher does after 50 pitches or in the 1st inning, etc etc. A manager who knows how to play matchups (see LaRussa) can help his team win more games.

Almost no one that regularly posts here has ever said its purely statistical but a good number of us do like to talk statistics (like most baseball fans)...why else did they put stats on the back of baseball cards???

You want to pretend stats are a made up fantasy that has no place in being a baseball fan, fine. You can feel free to do that but why not take it somewhere else. There are plenty of other baseball sites that might take less of a statistical approach than BL. There are other sites that focus strictly on a baseball prospectus type view of things. Either way, it gets really old to listen to you continually bash anyone who even mentions a stat.

[clout]

tommymvp: I want you to think of me as Raid for idiot infestations. Raid idioticide. No idiotic posts, no problems with clout. You'll be clout-free forever.

Oh, and one more thing: I don't need no stinkin' minions.

[mvptommyd]

Sophist: sorry, my career does no call for me to be a grammar expert, sorry to disappoint you.

"There's a resaon Bill James is on the BoSox payroll"

Really? what reason would that be? To approve the next 18 million dollar a year contract they aquire? If he worked for the Padres, ok I would give you a bone. But how hard is it to be like " Yes, sign Dustin Pedroia. According to my sabermetrics, he is a fine baseball player". My response, no s**t sherlock!

[NEPP]

They drafted Pedroia...try to use a FA when you make a sarcastic point like that.

[NEPP]

Also, now that Manny's gone, the Red Sox don't have a single player even making over $15 million...let alone "another $18 million signing".

[AWH]

Sanctus Cloutus, gratias ago vos pro vestri lacuna of sapientia. Nos totus postulo dissimulo Leviculus Thomas Peur.

[mvptommyd]

Why? they still gave him 6 yrs/ 40 million. Also, using him since many geniouses on here say it is stupid to offer a contrac tot Howar dnow, they he is "locked up" for 3 years due to arbitration and they refuse to believe that feelings interfer with business. Well look at Pedroia.

"The Red Sox wasted no time locking up American League MVP Dustin Pedroia with a six-year, $40.5 million contract, with an option for 2015, that takes them through three arbitration and two free-agent seasons"

Now, according to some on here, "that is a stupid move! He is locked up for 3 more years!"

[NEPP]

If Howard was willing to take a reasonable long term deal (like what they offered Utley) he'd already be signed. He wants a ridiculous amount.

And since when has anyone here ever said its stupid to lock up a guy in his arbitration years? We were all cheering the Hamels signing, the Utley signing, the Rollins signing etc. Do you even read what you are writing?

[mvptommyd]

AWH: You are proving to me that you are the empty headed person, by each post you write with this stupid latin thing you have going on.

[clout]

sophist: Baker has a little bit of Coste in him. He was a 4th rounder drafted by the A's out of Cal, but his arm is nothing special and his bat appeared to top out in AAA. I think he was in BA's top 30 A's prospects for a couple years, but then dropped off. Marlins got him as a 6-year free agent and lo and behold he hits better in the majors than he did in the minors.

He's now 28 and I suspect the Marlins have some doubts about whether he can repeat that .299/.392/.447. I do too.

[AWH]

Translation:

Saint clout, thank you for your words of wisdom. We all need to ignore empty-headed, vain, silly tommy boy.

[MG]

Agree to disagree on the stats portion. If anything in fantasy baseball, there really is only an emphasis on more traditional baseball statistics like AVG, HR, RBI, W/L, ERA, etc.

I get what you are saying though but stats are the coin of the realm when discussing baseball players. They have been that way since there were really more accurate box scores kept in the 1880s/1890s. The one thing that has changed is the much more sophisticated metrics that are available now and have defused out to everyday fans.

Not to say that traditional scouting methods don't matter anymore but you act like it is heretical to suggest that statistics are often the best way to evaluate a player.

[AWH]

Gee tommy boy, I guess you told me.

Like I've said before, you're always right just because you say so.

[mvptommyd]

NEPP: Last night, i said that signing howard would be a great thing because with arbitration brings bad feelings. And 4 or 5 different posters said i was "crazy" because hawrd is "locked up" for 3 more years so why spend the extra money on him now?

IMO, they should offer him a 4 yr/ 85 million deal now. If he says no, then try 3/60.

[clout]

AWH: Ave Caesar morituri te salutant!

Sorry, it's the only Latin I know.

[AWH]

clout, on the minions thing:

tommy boy obviously only pays attention to his own posts or the debates he gets into.

He doesn't notice you going at it with me, with NEPP, with Alby and others.

He's too self-absorbed to notice you're an equal opportunity provocateur.

After all, it's all about tommy boy.

[NEPP]

He'd say no to both MVP. They offered him an almost identical deal to Utley's (7 years, $85 million) last year (before another statistical decline year) and he said no. He wants the negotiations to start at 8 years, $153 million (Miguel Cabrera's deal) per what he said last off season. His request for $18 million only confirms this type of thinking. He wouldn't take 3 years, $60 million becuase he'd likely make more through arbitration...the same with a 4 year deal. He would be 33 and a big slow declining slugger (like Adam Dunn right now). He wants a HUGE payday so he's not gonna take a short deal like that. He thinks he is a unique, one of a kind talent who deserves to get paid top money for a long time. If he was even somewhat reasonable on his demands, he'd already be locked up like all of the other Phillies core guys.

[mvptommyd]

MG: Well I want a mixtutre of both. But the way BLer sometimes operates it is as if there is no need for a scout when all you need is baseballreference.com to prove all your points. That is ridiculous I say.
I appreciate stats, but my point is that a player has to be judged by much more. Like Everyone on here would rather have Abreu than Ibanez because his numbers seem to be better. but what stats don't tell you is who batter before and after him, what the score was etc. Abreu was the KING of tack on RBI's and HR's. My friend had a partial plan to Yankees games, and he watched Bobby Abreu almost everytime it was 6-1 Yankees in the 7th come up and Bobby would jack a 2 run homer. But when it was a tie game or down he would do nothing. Thats why stats lie period.

[NEPP]

AWH: what are you talking about??? clout and I never disagree.

[mvptommyd]

NEPP: your right. But the phillies have no choice but to sign this guy for what he wants. If it takes 7 yrs at 153 I think the phillies would do it, but they would be more comfortable doing a 3 yr deal followed by a 4 yr deal. Eithier way, if he has another yr like this yr he will be making 20 regardless next yr, then what do you do? Espically if you win another WS?

[clout]

mvptommy: "My friend had a partial plan to Yankees games, and he watched Bobby Abreu almost everytime it was 6-1 Yankees in the 7th come up and Bobby would jack a 2 run homer. But when it was a tie game or down he would do nothing."

These are the kinds of impressions that are often wrong. I don't have time to research this, but one could actually find out if that's true or not. That's the beauty of stats: They can prove that you're biased and don't know what you're talking about.

[MG]

tommy - If you aren't big on statistics, then what do you suggest should be used to evaluate a player in lieu of them?

Like Sophist said, I do think that most posters on here realize that there are severe limitations on statistics.

What is interesting right now in baseball is the meshing of the two. I still haven't seen a really good article that presents how an organization is comprehensively utilizing these tools with traditional scouting reports.

BTY - I do think traditional scouting reports are a big deal/very important to successs but that concept of "team chemistry" is largely bunk.

[NEPP]

To make a point - Bobby Abreu career splits

Tie Game situation - 1966 AB, 602 H, .306 AVG,.416 OBP,.509 SLG, .925 OPS

Within 1 run - 3432 AB, 1029 H, .300 AVG, .406 OBP, .497 SLG, .903 OPS

Overall - 6490 AB, 1946 H, .300 AVG, .405 OBP, .498 SLG

So, he outplays his overall line when the game is tied or within 1 run.

His leverage splits also show he's at his best in high leverage situations over his career. But I suppose your friend's opinion is more based in fact.

[clout]

NEPP: Thank you for proving my point.

[mvptommyd]

Clout: go look it up and get back to me. How do I know you ask? Because every frickin time it happened he would clal me from the stadium and simply say, " I hate Abreu" and I knew to check the game and sure enough he eithier jacke d ameaningless HR, made a fielding blunder, or hit into a ground ball rally killer.

[Flash Gordon]

Dude! I'm still in the league!

[Pat Burrell]

Tommy, your girlfriend says hello. At least it sounds like hello. Maybe she said she loves sucking my balls. . . When I blow my load, I'm going ot ask her about that luncheon the other day.

[clout]

tommy: NEPP just looked it up. As I suspected you're wrong.

[MG]

mvp - I ask you this: Would the Phils be better off with Abreu and another decent bullpen arm (aka Beimel)/decent RHP off the bench (Wiggington) this year or Ibanez?

Additionally, the Phils wouldn't have had to give up a 1st round pick for Abreu or be committed to him for big dollars in 2010 and 2011.

[mvptommyd]

Thats great,now for more relevant stats: The Great boby abreu last 3 years, since that seems to be the gadge here for stats.

Tie Game .266 .356 .375 .731 .303
Within 1 R .286 .365 .472 .837 .310
Within 2 R .296 .371 .455 .826 .332 121
Within 3 R 21 11 .303 .378 .471 .849 .345
Within 4 R .294 .370 .455 .825 .336

HMMM, seems to me with each run, the percentage gets higher

[MG]

mvp - It is ridiculous to assert that Abreu screwed up in every key situation. I love going to a game in Philly but there are times that:

1. Fans boo for little/no merit at all
2. Fans are very fickle and JRoll was 100% right last year when it is very much "what have you done for me lately" town.

[mvptommyd]

I actually met Pat 4 years ago when he was single at 32 lounge in old city, he is a great guy. He was a ladies man. Actually Mike Lieberthal was worse than him.

MG: Obviously Abreu, Beimel, for the sake of argument wiggington. BUT Amaro made the right move by getting his needs first and not worrying about the market. I truley beleive Ibanez will lead us due to his contact hitting to more run production, where pat would often disappear in a cold spell for a month.

[mvptommyd]

"mvp - It is ridiculous to assert that Abreu screwed up in every key situation. I love going to a game in Philly but there are times that:

1. Fans boo for little/no merit at all
2. Fans are very fickle and JRoll was 100% right last year when it is very much "what have you done for me lately" town. "

Now I never said every, I said most about Abreu. Secondly, Rollins wa sdead wrong when he said that because we aren't "bandwagon " fans, when we go to sell out that park every night. Now, I am sure Rollins LOVED 2 million people going to the parade, can we agree on that? Well then when he comes late for games, and then goes on National Tv and called phillies fans, bandwagon jumpers when he doesnt even know what that means, he deserves to get booed.

[MG]

I can buy that but Amaro still misread the market and overpaid for Ibanez.

As for the "Burrell disappearing for a month" it is really only during the past two years ('07 and '08) that Burrell really had demonstrated such long periods of inconsistency.

[mvptommyd]

MG: As a add on to your last comment, since they won the WS myself personally and i hope many others adopt a 1 year boo ban on the team and FO. But that got lifted the day after the parade, at least on BLer anyway.

[Andy]

Sheesh, tommy. Get someone to prescribe some lithium for gosh sakes.

[mvptommyd]

Andy: Me Lithium? I am Pro Amaro. I am the last person that needs lithium. Everyone on here complaining are the ones that need it.

[MG]

mvp - There are plenty of bandwagons fans in Philly too. Hell, this team couldn't generate the time of day from most fans by the late 1990s in terms of attendance. Went to plenty of games where there were lucky to be 15-20k in actual attendance at the Vet in late August when the Phils were clearly out of it. Back then, you could scalp tickets at even less than face if you waited until the game started and guys were desperate to take anything for unsold tickets.

[MG]

The heralded praise of Amaro is as ridiculous as some of the criticism he got when he became GM.

[mvptommyd]

Burrell's worst cold streaks

2006 5 for 38
2007 9 for 56
2008 9 for 49

You will NOT see that will Ibanez

[mvptommyd]

MG: come on and the true baseball follower that you are, there was a strike 1994. That why attendance was low everywhere, not just here and because the Vet wa sa putrid place to watch baseball by the near 2000's.

[thephaithful]

Dbacks sign Flash! 500k, 2mil in incentives

[bay_area_phan]

For MVPTommy:

Raul Ibanez's longest cold stretches of the last 3 years:

Sept. 14 through Sept. 28, 2008 -- 5 for 59

May 17 through May 31, 2007: 3 for 44

May 17 through May 26, 2006: 5 for 37

This is a perfect example of why your posts are so unanimously ridiculed on this site. Your method of argument is to make bold factual assertions off the seat of your pants, without ever bothering to look up what you're saying. Then, when someone comes along and posts a response that proves you wrong, you dismiss the poster as someone who obviously never played baseball but knows how to cite statistics.

Speaking of unsupported factual assertions . . . please identify the "complaining" post that I wrote on the day the Phillies won the World Series. Again, you are just making this up because I guarantee you it never happened.

[B-Dizzle]

Do you ever wake up with a song in your head and just can't shake it? Well, Kriss Kross' "Jump" playing on a constant loop right now.

[Jack]

BAP: Great post. Proves the "consistency" myth is, well, a myth.

[NEPP]

So AROD tested positive for steroids back in 2003 apparently.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/baseball/mlb/02/07/alex-rodriguez-steroids/index.html?eref=T1

Why am I not surprised. Didn't Canseco also incriminate him a few years back and everyone called him crazy...that Arod was baseball's white knight???

[NEPP]

Pujols is consistent...the rest of mere mortal baseball players are not. Pujols is also the best hitter in the game since Aaron or even DiMaggio.