'Halladay clone' at centerpiece of reported Lee deal

FoxSports analyst Ken Rosenthal chimes in with the Cliff Lee package he's hearing, which would include 18-year-old right-hander Jason Knapp, right-hander Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald and catcher Lou Marson, according to his major-league source. From Rosenthal's piece "Knapp, who does not turn 19 until Aug. 31, is currently sidelined with shoulder stiffness, but one scout says his upside is greater than (Kyle) Drabek's, calling the 6-foot-5, 215-pound righty a "Halladay clone." [Link]

Comments

[LA Jeff]

I hate trade season, I can't handle it! I want to keep Knapp now!! Halladay clone?? What are we doing! I need medication, am I the only one going completely insane!?!?! AHHHHHHHH!

[Mike Scuilli]

if nothing goes down today and tomorrow, friday could be the craziest day EVAR

[Andy (on vacation)]

"Halladay clone" except for that negligible issue of never yet having pitched above A-level.

So, if there's an actual cloned embryo out there of Roy, who might someday actually grow up, eat Wheaties, throw a baseball and decide to not take that scholarship to, say, Stanford, he would hold great value in trade talks?

Interesting.

Despite what "one scout" says, if I could trade Knapp for Drabek, I think I'd do that deal.

[bay_area_phan]

A Halladay clone? I love scout-speak. The guy is 18 years old, has an ERA over 4 at low Single A, and is already having injury issues, but they can already project that he's the next Roy Halladay?

[Lake Fred]

Rosenthal also writes: "Teams routinely include cash in deals to secure better prospects. The Phillies' payroll is a club-record $130 million, which is one reason the club has balked at a Halladay deal."

Rube's been instructed to pinch pennies.

[Brian]

You know, I hope that in 15 years when Knapp has 8 Cy Youngs and averages 25 wins/season everyone here is happy with trading away the future.

[Andy]

Yeah. What b-a-p said!

I'm wondering who the extra player is we could maybe possibly (theoretically) get from Cleveland. Fuschia Konsidrasians I bet.

[Pete Happy]

"A Halladay clone?" People generally don't have a great grasp on the influence that environmental factors can have on development, over and above genetics.

[PHIinBK]

Sooooooo we should trade drabek for Halliday rather than trade Knapp for Lee?!?

But..wha...jebus. We need a fortune teller on the payroll.

[Andy doing more stupid haiku]

in those many years
when Knapp has seven Cy Youngs
I will eat my crow

[joe l]

If this is true, sold. Get them to the airport now.

[limoguy]

Yet Jayson Stark says that his source close to the Indians, whatever that means, denies a major deal to be in the offing.

This deal is done if it's for Knapp, Marson, Donald and Carrasco.

[NEPP]

Mariners and Pirates just pulled off a 7 player deal. Snell and Jack Wilson to Seattle for a slew of prospects and Ronny Cedeno for some reason.

[Andy]

How many Halladay clones are there currently groing up as boys in Brazil?

[MPN]

I think Keith Law should call Adam Rubin for some career advice.

[NEPP]

So I guess the Mariners aren't selling? Odd deal to make if you're a seller...

[Andy]

Why couldn't we have gotten Ronny Cedeno? Wade would have at least done that for us! (Think of the tools!)

[Bubba]

What!--
Jason trade the "Begin Your Journey, My Lord" girl for 2 Jets tickets girls.
Worst trade ever.

[Grumpy Gramps]

Enough already, I'm going to do a Rip Van Winkle and set my alarm clock to 4pm Friday. When I wake up, I'll find out if all of this was just a dream.

[Andy]

NEPP - I'm guessing that they're thinking they need to replace Bedard since they can't trade him now.

[JTS]

Yo, let's chill out on the Knapp bashing, mkay? I for one think he's the best Halladay clone around, and that the Indians would be silly to NOT trade us Cliff Lee for him. I mean, this could seal their fate for a decade! They're practically robbing us blind here!

[limoguy]

The Phils could trade for both Lee and Halladay since the Tribe and the Jays have interest in different players.

[king myno]

NEPP - I thought the same thing, both about the Mariners suddenly buying and about Ronny Cedeno being alive/involved in a trade.

[NCPhilly]

Suddenly not interested in keeping Knapp. Halladay clone? Halladay has never won a playoff game or World Series, so by extension Knapp never will either and is worthless to any future postseason endeavors.

[Andy]

Bubba - The My Lord girl only looks 3-D. She's actually as flat as ypour screen; which means she can't hit the curve. Besides, everyone knows ticket girls are "gritty."

[MG]

Andy - Your haikus have become my favorite posts. Is crow a bit gamey?

[Andy]

extending the thought of Mr. Town Car:

Halladay, Hamels, Lee, Blanton, Happ.

No future at the farm, but a malicious rotation for a couple years.

[Brian G]

As happy as I'll be if we get Lee for the package mentioned, it should be noted that Lee got Bretty Myer'ed to the minor leagues only two years ago. Halladay is a better bet to be a dominant playoff starter, and that would be the whole point of this trade.
Of course, if Ricciardi is being impossible, and we get to keep Drabek, Brown, and Taylor this way, and then dump the $6mil we saved into the draft... ok, I'm just rambling.

[limoguy]

Andy - RWD Town Cars are lousy on slippery roads. Therefore, safety being our number one priority, we use FWD Caddys.

[loctastic]

'Halliday clone'. That scout is smoking something good and not sharing.

[CJ]

Brian G: Yes... it's true. Lee is no Halladay.

However... Lee is the reigning Cy Young Award winner and a clear upgrade for our rotation.

If the most painful part of the deal is Jason Knapp, then sign me up.

Drabek, Brown, Taylor, Happ still in our organization. Good deal.

[MPN]

Seattle has acquired Jack Wilson and Ian Snell from Pittsburgh for Jeff Clement, Ronny Cedeno & Aaron Pribanic, Brett Lorin & Nathan Adcock.

[loctastic]

agree CJ. I still say we don't need an ace (though it would help), we just need to replace Myers..

[NEPP]

12:03pm: Gordon Edes and Tim Brown of Yahoo report that the Phillies appear to be "on the verge" of acquiring Cliff Lee from the Indians for Carrasco, Knapp and at least two of Donald, Marson and Michael Taylor.

[loctastic]

12:03pm: Gordon Edes and Tim Brown of Yahoo report that the Phillies appear to be "on the verge" of acquiring Cliff Lee from the Indians for Carrasco, Knapp and at least two of Donald, Marson and Michael Taylor.

mlbtraderumors.com again

[p. Red]

MLBTradeRumors:
12:03pm: Gordon Edes and Tim Brown of Yahoo report that the Phillies appear to be "on the verge" of acquiring Cliff Lee from the Indians for Carrasco, Knapp and at least two of Donald, Marson and Michael Taylor.

If Taylor is included, than this deal got a lot less attractive.

[J- Buck]

FWIW - on the Phillies website the probable pitchers have been changed from Jamie Moyer and Cole Hamels on Sat/Sun to TBA. Cliff Lee is scheduled to pitch on Saturday for Cleveland. Quite a pitching matchup possibility Lincecum vs. Lee.

[CJ]

Yahoo Sports reporting that Michael Taylor could be in the Cliff Lee deal...

Carrasco and Knapp along with two of Donald, Marson and Taylor.

[Petey Pablo]

WTF is Seattle thinking? They're 7.5 out and trading for a rental in Wilson and an iffy SP in Snell?

Does that mean Washburn is off the table (which is fine by me b/c he'd be horrible in CBP and I don't want Rube to be tempted)

[p. Red]

Beat like a red-headed stepchild.

[rob]

Think Seattle may flip Snell AND Washburn in a deal? They have NO CHANCE at contention this year. Seattle's GM is a former Brewer exec. Brewers have interest in Washburn..Maybe some package including Gamelis what Seattle wants.. Damn this is fun!

[p. Red]

You think Bill Conlin is starting his column already?

[Petey Pablo]

Rube: Keep taylor out of that trade. If we get Lee for Knapp, Carrasco, Donald and Marson that is a heist.

[NEPP]

That's still a fair deal...obviously Donald and Marson is preferable to Taylor and either of the other two but its still a fair deal.

[LwrSlwrGeorge]

Lee, Halladay, Drabek, Knapp, Carrasco, Donald, Taylor, Marson... My fingers are getting calloused hitting . I'm putting a couple of beverages in the cooler, turn off the 'puter and grab a fishing rod and chill for a few hours. I could sink the boat with all the croaker that are out there biting.

I'm (semi-) retired - I can do that!

[KJJ]

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp?c_id=phi

Great post by pRed, check it out....was this like this before today?

[TheGodfatherSJP]

Carrasco, Donald, and Marson have to look pretty attractive to Cleveland, especially since they're aggressively shopping Victor Martinez around. Their starting SS is Asdrubal Cabrera who's really a 2B by position. So they need help there as well. Starting pitching has been awful, and they get a projected #3 starter in Carlos Carrasco and a high ceiling prospect in Jason Knapp.

That's 3 guys who can contribute immediately plus a 4th who will be MLB ready in 3 years and projects as an ace. It's good for Cleveland too.

[clout]

CJ: Do you think Happ wins 20 games next year?

[CJ]

And remember... Taylor will have a hard time getting on the field for the Phils for the next couple of years.

Also... will Toronto come running now and say, "Wait! We'll talk!"

I think Ricciardi significantly overplayed his hand.

[NEPP]

Hell, I think Happ is a 30 game winner next year...

[ozark]

Too many southpaws in the rotation w/ Lee.
$$ should not be an issue. Attendance is more than 100% considering standing room tix sold.

[CJ]

clout: If he only wins 20, it's a HUGE disappointment.

Why do you ask?

[Brian G]

You hate losing prospects like Taylor cuz they're exciting to follow, but that's probably a fair trade for Lee. And the Taylor situation is rectified by extending Jayson Werth, who is probably right now what we'd love to see Taylor become.

Let's just hope that the Phillies are making the correct call on Drabek/Brown being more valuable than Knapp/Taylor.

[p. Red]

CJ: Agreed. This will be Rube's reaction: http://tinyurl.com/6ozlzd

[SmokyJoe]

The SOuthpaw thing is only relevant if they all have the same right-handed splits. I believe Happ is neutral, and Hamels is actually opposite. And it doesn't matter one way or another for Moyer.

[NEPP]

Moyer and Hamels both have reverse splits, Lee has a neutral split (within 30 points on OPS)

Its not too many LHPs.

[clout]

If the deal is Knapp, Carrasco, Marson & Donald then I love it. If the deal subs Taylor for Marson or Donald, then I don't much like it, but I understand it and it does make this team a series WS threat this year and next. Lee is a FA after 2010.

[dlhunter]

Repost:

What if....this is all a ploy by Rube to make the Jays lower their asking price?

[clout]

CJ: "And remember... Taylor will have a hard time getting on the field for the Phils for the next couple of years."

Taylor likely needs at least a half season, perhaps more, of Trip A next year, but why, pray tell, would he have a hard time getting on the field in 2011?

[NEPP]

Happ does not have a neutral split...he's far tougher on LHB.

[Doohickey]

I just paid $150 apiece for section 115 tickets, so I think I'm doing my part to get Lee or Halladay.

[SmokyJoe]

Based everything I know about the Indians, they have very little need for outfield prospects. I'm not sure why they would want Taylor. They'd be better off getting the first 4 and asking for another C-level throw-in.

[kart racer]

A lot of coincidences going on today.

I still wonder why the Phillies would pull 3 guys being scouted from a game that 3 indians scouts will be at?

That would be pretty mean if a trade isn't happening.

And now the missing starters for this weekend. I think Rube is trying to play mind games with JP!

[Brian]

someone correct me if i'm wrong but if Lee doesn't resign in 2011 don't the phils get two 1st round compensation picks?

[MyersAtTheBat]

dlhunter- it better be. leverage is the name of the negotiating game...

[pblunts]

@dlhunter: "What if....this is all a ploy by Rube to make the Jays lower their asking price?"

Zolecki's most recent tweet speculates that Ricciardi probably not happy Phils maybe moving on without him... so as I have mentioned-and many others-this might all be part of the high stakes poker game. Except it's three agonizing weeks long!

[MPN]

NEPP: The reverse splits are probably largely the result that neither of them can effectively use their changeups against lefty hitters.

[p. Red]

dlhunter: I've been thinking the same thing. Would be epic if the Jays broke and offered up Halladay for Carrasco, Knapp, Donald and Taylor.

[CJ]

I'm not too concerned about being "lefty heavy." After this trade, I expect Pedro (RHP) to be given a shot to replace Moyer in the rotation giving us:

Hamels, Lee, Blanton, Happ, Pedro

Also, in his career, Hamels is actually slightly tougher on RHB than LHB (although not this year) and Happ has pretty even splits as well.

[sneed]

Just because all 3 were scratched does not mean ALL 3 are in the deal. It is a combination of coincidence on two levels. First, Donald and Marson were prime candidates for a break this morning. Second, we are playing the Indians team, so if a trade was consummated during the game, it would be a bad situation if both players needed to be pulled at the same time.

[NEPP]

Then we'd take Halladay...Ricciardi doesn't seem that smart though. He'd probably take the BoSox offer and then start getting his resume together.

[clout]

Smoky: Actually, the southpaw thing becomes relevant when they face a team that kills southpaws. But more relevant is Lee's FB tendencies.

[CJ]

clout: Because Dom Brown will be bombing in Triple A by then, of course.

[clout]

Brian: Yes, assuming Lee is a Type A free agent.

[sirgeb]

According to Google's cache, the probable pitchers on Phil's MLB site seem to be TBA after 3 days out- so the TBAs are probably jsut a coincidence. Yesterday and today's pitchers were TBA about 5 days ago which was the last cache snapshot. Here's the cache link:

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:gsmFyqsOFaQJ:www.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp%3Fc_id%3Dphi+http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/probable_pitchers.jsp%3Fc_id%3Dphi&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

[SmokyJoe]

I agree with that Clout...just arguing that the vey nature of what hand they pitch with is not a deciding factor alone, especially considering the splits.

[Matt]

Not sure if this was posted or not, but here's a good article on espn.com regarding "can't miss" prospects.

[sneed]

Rosenthal is reporting Carrasco, Knapp, Donald and Marson for Lee and one other.

[Phil Smiles]

I think all the talk about replacing Moyer in the rotation is ridiculous. I just can't see it happening. At most, he will be left off the PS roster.

[CJ]

sneed: Good points. Who is the "other player" the Phils might get?

Do they have a RHB option or a reliever?

[Brian G]

All this trade talk makes me feel bad for Rodrigo Lopez and his 139 ERA+.

[SmokyJoe]

Sneed, I think you are an hour and a half behind (and three threads back).

[Rob]

Ozark---During the spring, the concern was that our line-up was too left-handed. No one talks about it now. I don't think it matters how you get quality pitching. As long as it's quality.That being said, I am leaning toward Jamie's removal from the rotation. If he wants to be in bullpen, fine. If not, give him an administrative post. Then you can "even out " the rotation. And NO, I don't think Jamie sucks.. He's just the least effective member of the rotation.

[Jack]

Rosenthal says it's the Carrasco, Knapp, Marson, Donald deal. If that's true, Amaro just did really good work. He got a Cy Young winner and one of the top 10 pitchers in baseball right now without giving up Drabek, Taylor or Brown.

[SmokyJoe]

Anyone have an update on the LV game, especially Taylor?

[NEPP]

****All this trade talk makes me feel bad for Rodrigo Lopez and his 139 ERA+.****

Why? He'll be fine when he takes Durbin's spot in the BP...

[The Truth Injection]

I'm about 98% positive I heard on MLB Radio the other day that Cliff Lee can opt out of his deal at the end of this year if he is traded.

Now I would imagine the Phillies would work on getting him to stay if that is the case, but it really makes me not want to give up Taylor in that case.

[ernie]

Besides Ron Santo does anyone know of any great players who have had diabetes? (Taylor) not sure if its an issue or will affect his career....

[p. Red]

CJ: Victor Martinez.

.....I kid. I kid. Would be awesome though, right?

[CJ]

If this happens... I'll be floored.

We get the reigning Cy Young award winner without giving up Happ, Drabek, Brown or Taylor? Really?

I'm going to try not to think about this much more. It's too unbelievable.

[NEPP]

Joel Sherman has deal is near completion...

[clout]

CJ: Dom Brown bombing at Trip A in 2011 prevents Taylor from playing for the big team that season because....?

[J.R. King]

Zolecki tweets: Source: Phillies also would receive OF Ben Francisco (.250, 10 homers, 33 RBIs). Right-handed bat the Phillies have been looking for.

[CJ]

Phils would also receive RH OF Ben Francisco. He has a career .810 OPS vs. LHP.

[TNA]

Ben Francisco?

[JMARR]

Clout - I'm with you - if Taylor is still in the organization putting up impressive numbers it will be Werth moving on to make room and not Taylor ......

2011 OF could very well be Taylor Vic Brown

[mm]

There's no way taylor or brown isn't included. The indians must really like carasco or knapp, and they still are going to want a legit bat.

But it means were keeping drabek and happ, so whatever. We had to pay something, and if it isn't one of those two, then its still a good deal.

[dlhunter]

@ p. Red

I mused about that last night/early this morning.

How sick would it be if the one weak bat in our lineup (catcher) was replaced with Victor Martinez? We'd bat around every inning. TMac and Wheels would be fired and replaced by Franzke and LA. And ballpark beer would be free...

...and then I wake up.

[CJ]

clout: I was talking about 2009 and 2010... the years the pitcher we're trading for would be here. It's possible Taylor could be in our OF for 2011 if Werth walks, but it's also possible Brown is ready to play by then.

My point is that Taylor is NOT in our immediate plans for winning a WS this year or next. If he goes, I won't cry.

[Doohickey]

TNA: San Francisco's little brother.