Yankees dethrone Phillies as champions of baseball

The Philadelphia Phillies' bid for back-to-back world titles fell short Wednesday night in a 7-3 defeat at the hands of the New York Yankees. 

Beerleaguer: Tonight concludes a historic run by a proud Philadelphia franchise, beginning with last season's title capture, continuing with their successful 162-game and division-clinching march through the regular season and ending with their second-consecutive National League pennant. While 2008 became the year Philadelphia was given reprieve from a long title drought, 2009 carried a different meaning for this individual, one that mattered less about winning and more about the bonds the Phillies have created among us. Step back. Look around. What great pleasure, excitement and brotherhood the Phillies have stirred, at a time when unity and goodwill are in such short supply.

I'll issue my final thoughts on the Phillies in the days ahead. Meanwhile, I extend my sincere thanks to the peanut gallery for spending another season with Beerleaguer. It's been a pleasure to serve you.

Comments

[NEPP]

My guess is that Figgins will get a 3 year deal with MAYBE a club option for a 4th year. I don't know who will be the one to give it to him though. Who needs a 3B besides us?

White Sox?
Cardinals?
Twins?

I honestly dont know without looking.

[G-Town Dave]

Old Phan: Well stated. From reading these posts you'd think the Phils were just a semi-competent 3B away from repeating. Yes, the position could use an upgrade, but I'm far more concerned w/ the fact that Lidge is still going to be the closer, J-Roll will still be batting leadoff, there are several huge holes in the bullpen & the sickening realization that the Phils' bench -- a disaster all season long -- eventually went something like 0-19 in the World Series. I'd worry about ALL of that before I'd even begin to worry about 3B.

[GBrettfan]

One thing I wonder about is whether Pedro was too sick to pitch last night. In which case, I wonder what might have happened if Happ had been tapped to start, instead. I think there was some reluctance to throw him into the rotation after only 1 postseason start, and with no other mulitple-innings lefty in the BP. But it was pretty clear from the beginning that throwing an ill Pedro out there was a gamble that was not paying off. Jamie Moyer did it last year, but that was a young team, not the Yankees. I have a feeling, however, that Matsui would have killed us regardless. He did get a hit off Happ, too.

I wonder how many other Phillies were ill during the series and whether that could help explain underperforming. But whatever, we didn't get the job done, and the Yankees did.

As for trading Victorino or Werth, ouch! I could accept trading Pat b/c he was slow and prone to long slumps. But Victorino has so much energy, and Werth is such a competitor. I realize we have Taylor to replace one of them, and that their values are high right now. I would be awfully sad to see one of them go, but I suppose it's inevitable we lose every one of these players I've got such fondness for, at some point. But it makes me sadder for our loss, realizing that this team won't be the same next year.

[G-Town Dave]

b_a_p: If you exchange the words "Leadoff batter" & Closer", Charlie uses almost the exact same language when referring to J-Roll as he does when referring to Lidge. He sees J-Roll as a guy who can "only" bat leadoff, just as he sees Lidge as a guy who can "only" be a closer. Combine that w/ the fact that Jimmy's ego will be vocally unhappy about any change in the status quo, can you really envision any changes being made?

[NEPP]

It did kinda suck that half the team seemed to have the flu during the WS. I dont know if that really changed anything overall but it clearly didn't help to have Park unavailable for a couple games, Dobbs apparently on his death bed and Pedro sick last night.

If UC throws Jimmy out there in the leadoff again next year for the whole season and he is again under .300 for his OBP, he should be fired.

[MG]

On an extension for Lee:

- Lee will be 33 in 2011 and is really that wise of an investment to lock up a pitcher entering his mid-30s to at least $16M/year (and possibly more) at 4 more years?

- If the Phils sign Lee to that kind of extension, Hamels is almost as certainly as good as gone after 2011. Would you rather investment longer-term in Hamels or Lee after 2011?

- This team is basically constructed for until 2011. Only Utley & Lidage are signed in 2012 and Utley is the only player signed beyond 2011. The Phils are likely going to be entering a rebuilding/reshifting phase after that as this current core has largely moved on with a few exceptions.

- It makes sense to give Lee another 2 years beyond 2010 at even bigger dollars (say $20M) but signing him to 4 years is just foolish.

- Again, who is to say that Lee doesn't get injured or have an off-year next year. If he gives up his share of HRs (and he has before in the past), I could see him struggling a bit especially at CBP.

[Joel Goodling]

I was surprised we didn't get bounced by the Rockies honestly...they were hot and we were not. But then Howards smashes a double and all is forgotten. Lidge gets his slider back and we moved on..

The NLCS was my season highlight. The Rollins hit off Broxton was unbelievable. Much like the Stairs moonshot in 2008 overshadowed almost everything the WS that season, Rollins hit was of legend.

We were underdogs yet again, even as defending champs. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Lee and a mentally healthy Hamels...look out. Happ has a lot to prove. Blanton still has a lot left in the tank. Something tells me Lidge will come in to 2010 healthy as an ox. I look forward to another long grind. I think Utley finally might have that MVP season we've been waiting for...

Thank you Phils, no matter how you spin it this is a lot better than the days when we were hoping Wes Chamberlin would hit above .250.

[NEPP]

Happ will likely have a much tougher year in 2010 for a few reasons:

1. He pitched well above himself this year. His FIP was a pedestrian 4.33 (compared to his actual ERA of 2.93).

2. He stranded an inordinate amount of runners this year (85% vs. 72% league average). It was also higher than any other minor-league season by a significant amount...i.e. its probably a bit flukish.

3. Teams will have all winter to review tapes of him and will have a much better approach than they did this year.

4. We haven't yet seen him react to struggling. How will he deal with it if he gets blown out a couple times? Will he go all Hamels on us and flip or will he bear down and get better?

My bet would be on a year along these lines:
160-180 IP, 4.00-4.50 ERA, 10-12 wins.

Interesting split on Happ is IP:

2008 - 169 IP (minor league, MLB and playoffs)
2009 - 172.2IP (regular/postseason combined)

No worries about a Verducci effect at least.

[Cipper]

We have a huge problem if we let Feliz go...

What spanish player can we get that we can call by their name in english?

We had Joe Table, some off years, then Peter Happy... but now what?

What does Ruiz even translate to? River or something? Anything?!?!?

So my question is, who fills this roll in 2010?

[Old Phan]

"Thank you Phils, no matter how you spin it this is a lot better than the days when we were hoping Wes Chamberlin would hit above .250."

Great line!

[limoguys]

It was definitely the Yankees' year but a great season by the Phils.

Jason is right that the camraderie is a big part of it.

[Bubba]

What spanish player can we get that we can call by their name in english?
So my question is, who fills this roll in 2010?

Posted by: Cipper | Thursday, November 05, 2009 at 03:11 PM

The obvious, not not politically correct , answer is Antonio Bastardo.

[Old Phan]

Bubba, that is funny. A close friend of mine (last name Garcia) call each other "Bastardo", so when I first heard his name I thought it was a joke or a misprint.

[UD Hens]

I was fully expecting to be talking about Game 7 today, not the 2010 roster. This stinks.

Let's not get too stirred up about replacing Feliz just yet. I don't think 3B is Rube's biggest priority in the offseason. Clearly, the bullpen has to be retooled, followed by the bench, signing Lee to an extension, and then 3B. The best option may be keeping Feliz if you want to spend money elsewhere.

I guess the silver lining to losing in the World Series is that this team should come back very hungry next year. Clearly this is the best team in the NL.

Also, I think the Yankees will have a tougher road than the Phils to getting back to the World Series next year coming out of the AL.

BTW, That Dude, part of what I wrote before was tongue in cheek. I know you've been around for 2+ years, me too. I agree with you that Lee in a Yankees uniform would suck, that's why Rube can't let that happen.

[Shane]

With regards to Hamels. He may not be as good as some people here think he is. Just like Burrell wasn't as good as some here hoped he would have been. We don't know if Cole's best days are behind him. Pitching is funny like that. We have him and I hope he can work though his struggles. Even with them, he's still a serviceable 4th/5th starter.

The bullpen in general had a bad year and postseason. I suggest that we forget the perfection of '08 as I feel it will prove to be an outlier. Injury, inconsistency all plagued the pen this year and honestly, that happens more than not. I expect some re-tooling this off-season.

Is Lidge going to be perfect again? No. His perfect season had lots of line drive outs and rally killing double plays, especially at the end of the season. Can we rely on Lidge to close for us next year? It's possible, but... He needs to make some adjustments. If his fastball does not return his slider will not be effective, so he will need to develop a different strategy. To off-set this possibility, I believe we should pickup another closer and alternate between them or make it situational (if the other is a lefty).

I like Stairs, Dobbs, and Francisco. However, I would not be too bothered if they cleaned house this off season. We need a utility fielder that is not Bruntlett. We need some bench speed. We need reliable LH and RH bats off the bench. And we need a solid backup catcher. I'm not certain if anyone we currently have can successfully fill those roles.

Myers. I don't think we re-sign him UNLESS he is cheap or incentive laden.

Kendrick. Assuming the Core rotation is Lee, Hamels, Happ, Blanton, that leaves Kendrick and Moyer (and maybe a few others) to battle for 5th. That could be a toss up. It will depend on how good his spring is if he makes the team or not.

Ibanez. Sure, he could, but I think we'll see a slight decline. He'll have highs and lows but this year's high was very abnormal and I don't see it happening again. As strange as this may sound, I would not be upset about working him into a platoon if it means we could attract a good RH bat.

Feliz. I like his glove, but we could do better than his bat. If we go for Figgins, then J-Roll must go to the 7 hole, which I would love to see no matter what. From what little I've seen of Beltre I would not mind giving him a few years either.

Pedro. No, I hope we do not offer anything substantial to him. If he wants to sign for peanuts to fight for the 5th spot, sure, but he won't.

Park. If we could sign him to a middle reliever type contract, sure. He was the go-to guy this year. Please don't promise him a rotation job this time.

[Cipper]

Bubba: As long as we got one, then I can sleep at night.

[Pete Happy]

If they don't resign Feliz, I guess I'm going to have to switch to Ol' Dirty Bastardo.

In other news, Abreu gets another 2 years with the Angels.

[Bubba]

Cipper
I think we are all a little sleep deprived.
Funny, how hard that hits after the WS loss last night.

[UD Hens]

Shane - Cole is a 4th/5th starter? Really? He's 25 years old and extremely talented. I would expect him to have a better attitude next season and a big rebound in his numbers.

[NEPP]

Hmm...I wonder how much they'll regret that now that he won't be playing for a contract and still is terrible in the field. It also has a vesting option so it could very well be a 3 year deal. I wonder what the $$ amount is.

[PS]

WFC!!

[Cipper]

Yea, instead of Joe Carter jumping up and down in my nightmares, now it's going to be Mariano mowing down our line up with cutter after cutter after cutter....

[Old Phan]

Couldnt agree more with this.

http://blog.mlive.com/stoneyexpress/2009/11/matsui_mvp_should_mean_sayonara_to_dh.html

[That Dude]

BTW, Michael Taylor is batting 353 in the Mexican league. He is 6'6 250 and probably the second fastest guy in the entire organization (including the big club). Sell Vic high.

Let's go crazy....Victorino, Kendrick, joe Savery and JA Happ for Roy Halladay..(that's a ED player, #3 starter and two mid level prospects).

[phlipper]

"Just as silly as it for flipper to proclaim him the winner of the 2008 world championship just because he happened to drive in the final run of a series that the Phillies won 4 games to 1."

You just can't help yourself, can you, clout?

I never wrote anything remotely like that. Losing Feliz will be losing a good fielder and a less than good hitter. No big loss. He is relatively easily replaced, and if you're willing to pay more, replaced with an upgrade.

All I've ever said is that the vitriol directed against Feliz is way disproportional the his level of importance to the team. Thread after thread full of how much Feliz is killing the team, how terrible a hitter he is, how over-rated he is defensively, blah, blah, blah. I find it amusing and curious as to why some sports fans get some jollies from player-hating that way. It is a curious phenomenon.

The fact remains, offense was not the Phillies problem this year, by a long shot. They led the NL in many offensive categories, including the most important, average runs scored per game. Focusing so much energy on Feliz's hitting skills, as a top priority need for improving next year is ridiculous.

The Phillies need to address their bullpen problems and their pitiful bench as top priorities. The need someone decent as a fill-in for infield players, someone who can DH from the right and left sides. They could even use some more starting pitching before they need to worry about upgrading their offense at 3rd base.

Sorry if it upset you so much to read that I say that, clout. I understand, just like your man-love for Burrell, you have a bizarre hatred for Feliz. I get it.

But even though your Feliz-hating is obsessive - you could at least try to, maybe just once, not mischaracterize what I say?

Or, should we just say, once a weasel, always a weasel?

[NEPP]

****Shane - Cole is a 4th/5th starter? Really? He's 25 years old and extremely talented. I would expect him to have a better attitude next season and a big rebound in his numbers. ****

I don't think he quite understands what a "4/5 Starter" really is. Hamels had a terrible year in which he had a 4.32 ERA (in a good hitter's park) along with a 98 ERA+. Basically a typical 3rd starter. He still has a career ERA+ of 122 and his peripherals were pretty solid. He'll be fine with 3-4 months off. He's not even in his prime yet and you're ready to bury him.

[NEPP]

****BTW, Michael Taylor is batting 353 in the Mexican league. He is 6'6 250 and probably the second fastest guy in the entire organization (including the big club). Sell Vic high.****

Riiggghhtt. Taylor is a great athlete but he's hardly "the 2nd fastest guy in the entire organization".

[Old Phan]

"Michael Taylor is batting 353 in the Mexican league. He is 6'6 250 and probably the second fastest guy in the entire organization (including the big club)."

Maybe the Eagles could use him, then.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I recognize that Feliz was a contributor and not a cause of any failure of the Phils to repeat as world champions. I won't quibble with the numerous other issues identified by the posters here regarding other pieces of the team. However, Feliz is a logical subject to discuss, now, because of the team option for next year. Such options typically must be exercised within a short period following the end of the season, whereas trades, free agents and the like can be addressed months down the road.

[bake]

I think we are all a little sleep deprived.
Funny, how hard that hits after the WS loss last night.

Me too. I want my adrenaline back (or whatever it was).

[NEPP]

Abreu deal details:

2 years, $19 million with a $1 million buyout for 2012. 2012 is a vesting option worth $9 million if he reaches the PA requirement in 2010 and 2011.

Not too bad for either side I would think.

[bay_area_phan]

Old Phan/G-Town: I'm certainly not going to stipulate that Rollins as leadoff hitter is an immutable fact of life. Cholly clearly needs to change his mindset when it comes to the leadoff spot. Even in a good year, Rollins does not produce a high enough OBP to be hitting near the top of our lineup. Either we find a real leadoff hitter like Figgins or we move Vic to the leadoff spot, move Utley to the No. 2 spot (taking advantage of his on-base skills), and find a traditional power-hitting (and right-handed) 3rd baseman for the middle of our order.

Alternatively, if you want to keep Utley in the 3-hole, you could even move Chooch, and his .355 OBP, into the No. 2 spot. But first you'd have to enroll Cholly in an intensive 12-step program to rid him of the belief that the catcher has to bat last.

[MG]

philiper - Feliz was awful in the second half and he was a key part on why this offense really was closer to league average in a number of categories in August/Sept.

It really was a "Tale of Two Seasons" in which the Phils have arguably the worst pitching staff through Memorial Day besides the Nats & some very impressive offense numbers and some more mediocre offense numbers in the last two months with some really great pitching especially after the Lee trade & the Pedro signing.

[G-Town Dave]

b_a_p: Oh, I completely agree that's what should happen, I simply have 0.0% belief that Charlie Manuel is capable of change. Barring injury or death, J-Roll will be leading off for the Phillies in '10. I'd bet the proverbial farm on it.

Just to throw it out there: what about Werth batting leadoff? He's a more patient hitter than Vic, & he can both hit for power & steal bases. Assuming no better candidates are acquired, I'd be very tempted to give it a try if I were the manager.

[NEPP]

Chooch would probably get some great pitches to see batting in front of Utley.

[Old Phan]

MG, really? I would say Utley was as much as, if not more than, a key as Feliz.

[Cipper]

Anyone missing the fact that taylor is 6'6" and 250? WHY IS HE NOT STARTING 3rd BASE FOR THE BIG CLUB YET????!!!!!!!!1

[That Dude]

NEPP: Who would be faster than him after Anthony Gose? (maybe Dom BRown) and I will tell I have seen all 3 of these players in person. Gose would just barely nip Taylor and Gose is fast.

Old Phan: Mock all you want, but I still have yet to see any reasoning on your part. Since you haven't given any, your value to this conversation is nil.

[Old Phan]

BAP, agree about Chooch. I think a big issue here is how many games can we expect the Phils to win during the season. With a terrible closer and a leadoff hitter underachieving, and the world's worst 3rd baseman that has ever played the game (sorry for the sarcasm) they managed to win 93 games. With those holes filled, could we expect them to win 120 games? I highly doubt it.

[EastFallowfield]

A Bright Spot After Last Night

[Old Phan]

Dude, I haven't heard you give one logical reason to get rid of Vic other than your desire to do so, but thanks for judging my value to the conversation.

[NEPP]

Well, Victorino for one. Taylor is very fast for a big guy but he's not a speed demon like you are saying.

[next]

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[G-Town Dave]

Old Phan: Feliz & Ibañez both had worse 2nd Half numbers than Utley (who really only had one bad, albeit very bad, month). That there was only one even semi-productive offensive player in the 6-9 spots (Chooch) for the entire 2nd Half really put a hurtin' on the offense.

[whynow]

Posted by: rob bender @ 11:59 a - calling NY "title town"

r u kidding???

the yankees & the low life yankee trolls were no where around - either in the playoffs or this blog when the phillies won it all in 2008

it's only after the yankees broke the bank to get CC & AJ did they become a contender..

and 1 other question - about why these 2 pitchers only have initial for 1st names, is that the only way they'd remember their name?

[G-Town Dave]

EF: That's from the '08 WFC Celebration, no? I sat near the sign guy in the stands that day. :-)

[Old Phan]

EF, great picture!

[MG]

Phan - Utley had a good August and a cold September but he still finished at a line of .246/.358/.432 for an OPS of .790 in 264 AB after the ASB. Not great but still solid enough especially for a second baseman.

Feliz was awful with a line of .236/.274/.351 with an OPS of .625 in 276 AB after the ASB. Feliz had the worst numbers by a 3B in the NL after the ASB.

[clout]

I love Michael Taylor, but he is NOT at CF and before we pencil him into the starting lineup, we may want to watch him get another 100 ABs at Trip A. If he tears it up again and shows more polish on defense, then he's first guy up whenever someone gets hurt. But I wouldn't recall him unless he's going to play everyday.

My guess? Taylor is the starting LF in Philly before the end of next season.

[Marc H]

If you had told me before the season that Hamels would finish below .500, that Lidge would blow 16 or so saves and that Rollins would struggle to hit .250, I would have guessed a 3rd place finish. Instead, the team took its' title defnse all the way to NOVEMBER for cying out of loud.

New York can keep its' 200+ million doillar poayroll, its' multibillion dollar stadium and 300.00 ticket prices. The Phiullies take a back seat to no one

[Old Phan]

MG, I was just pointing out that Feliz wasn't the only one whose numbers were down, but I would expect Utley to have much much higher numbers than Feliz. As a hitter, I think Utley transcends his position.

[clout]

Hugh: Exactly right. One of the stranger posts on this issue was that we shouyldn't discuss Feliz because middle relief was a much higher priority and thus the team's resources will be spent for middle relief.

Just how expensive does is middle relief?
Answer: Not expensive at all, not to mention there are several candidates already in the minors who are ready to take over.

If the Phils don't upgrade at 3B because they're spending big bucks elsewhere, it certainly won't be middle relief.

One final thought on the offseason: There will be a TON of players who are non-tendered, including Atkins of Colorado. There will be more options for upgrading 3B, bench and middle relief coming out of that group.

[timr]

I think Charlie will move Rollins out of the leadoff spot. I mean, he's loyal to a fault, but that is in-season. Even Manuel knows that players decline, their skill sets change, and lineups need to eventually shift. Vic will bat leadoff, Jimmy will hit sixth. Charlie put that obvious decision off all season, I don't think he'll feel like he owes Rollins more than that.

[whynow]

ditto EF, great picture!

[NEPP]

I dont really see Atkins as an upgrade over anything. I'd rather have Feliz back than bring in Garrett.

[Pete Happy]

Phillies championship apparel bound for Indonesia, World Vision says

Philadelphia Business Journal - by Peter Key Staff Writer

The apparel that was printed in case the Philadelphia Phillies won the World Series will wind up in Indonesia.

World Vision, a Christian humanitarian nonprofit based in Seattle, said it will include the clothes in a large batch of supplies it is shipping to Indonesia as part of an aid package to people hurt by the September earthquake there.

World Vision is taking possession of the clothing as part of its Gifts-in-Kind program, under which it ships first-quality, excess inventory donated to it to people in need all over the world. In the past five years, it has placed $1.1 billion of donated goods from major corporations.

World Vision already has taken possession of the 1,300 pieces of league championship clothing printed up for the Los Angeles Dodgers and Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, but it didn’t say where it is sending that.

[clout]

Old Phan: Using your logic I assume you think keeping Bruntlett as the utilityman is just fine, am I right?

[NEPP]

You might laugh but in 20 years when the Phillies are the #1 presence in the Jakarta Winter League, this will pay off.

[Old Phan]

Clout, if you are referring to my comment regarding Feliz, all I am saying is that he is nowhere near the problem that many make him out to be. If they can replace him and have it not cost too much (either in cash or other players), then fine. No problem.
I assume the Gnome will be gone anyway.

[NEPP]

We should resign Bruntlett to start at 3B next year.

Imagine what he could do with regular playing time!!!

[Old Phan]

Pete, I hope we don't see some crafty entrepreneur try to sell that apparel back to people in Philly on eBay.

[NEPP]

The ironic thing is that the shirts were likely made in Indonesia originally anyway.

[clout]

Old Phan: So you don't think the Phillies should re-sign Bruntlett? They won 93 games this year and went to two World Series with Buntlett. That's not goo enough for you?

[Kutztown Fan]

I love it that you guys are already debating what moves should be made for next year.

All is right with the world.....

[Willard Preacher]

Although I'm reluctant to start the clock on some of these guys, I just want to be certain that some of these stiffs who don't deserve a spot on an MLB roster are not back (Cairo, Gnome, etc.). I'd rather see Taylor and some of the young guys, but the reality is that these guys are still just prospects and need some more seasoning in the minors. For that reason alone, we might all be shocked at the extremely limited number of moves we see from the Phils in the off-season (I'd actually be shocked to see a trade of any sort...).

This is a team that repeated as NL champs with limited tinkering, even with a new GM. What makes anyone think that there is going to be a revamped bench, bullpen and rearranged lineup? I think our best hope is that guys like Dobbs and Romero are able to get back and have "return to the mean" type years, while guys like Werth and Ruiz are able to continue to have "redefine their mean" types of years.

[Cipper]

Speaking of championship apparel, it really irked me when I saw NYs championship shirt.

"27 Time World Series Champion"

If the Phillies shirt doesn't say "3 time world series champion", I'm buying a yankees championship shirt, wiping my rear end with it, and sending it to Selig.

On second thought, that would give him and the yankees money. I'll print a picture of it, wipe my self, then send it.

How many of those championships would their oldest player even have been alive for? I'm tired of this elitest crap.

End of Rant.

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[GBrettfan]

No baseball for the first time in 7 months - I'm going through withdrawal! On the other hand, I can get some more sleep.

If the Phils had to lose a WS, I'm glad they lost this year as opposed to last year - I'm happy HK was alive to witness the team win it all.

[clout]

GBrettfan says, "I'm glad they lost this year"

JK

[clout]

Speaking of Taylor, would you put him into a package for Halladay this off-season?

[GBrettfan]

LOL Clout, if you take the quote out of context it sounds pretty bad! Just like Cole Hamels.

In fact, I feel "in mourning" for the lost season. To come so far and not perform the way they were capable of, it's disappointing. I'm trying to focus on the positives. Sure is different from the elation of last year, when I swear I smiled for a month just reflecting on the World Championship.

[That Dude]

Clout, I would put Werth in CF and have Taylor play RF.

[Phillies Red]

Any one see any info from Bill James' 2010 Handbook? The only thing I've seen Phillies related is this, from fangraphs:

Michael Taylor, COF, 285/350/462

Looks very promising. Other than that, fangraphs covers a very promising Florida first baseman, and metsblog notes that James sees a strong rebound for both Wright and Reyes.

[DH Phils]

It's very unlikely that both Victorino and Werth are Phillies in 2011. The Phillies have two highly ranked OF prospects in the high-level minors. I don't think it's the craziest thing in the world to talk about trading Victorino.

Hard to believe that in 2009, on a blog as generally intelligent as this one, that batting average with RISP can be cited as a reason to keep Pedro Feliz.

Old Phan: Your dripping sarcasm whenever anyone has the nerve to criticize the 2nd-worst offensive 3B in the National League is bordering on davthom's defenses of any criticism of Chris Coste.

[Old Phan]

DH, my issue is just the level of criticism aimed at Feliz, not the criticism in general. Read the posts. Some people here want to kill him (or at least, put a lot more blame on him than is necessary). That's all it is. I just don't understand the obsession, but it's more than likely he'll be gone next year.
Anyway, sarcasm can be fun!

[Jerry]

"I think Charlie will move Rollins out of the leadoff spot."

That's a good one. Thanks. After last night, I needed the laugh.

[Rupemaan]

Jason, Thank you for the site here. BL has made baseball very thought provoking when watching alone. You fire up the laptop and share your thoughts with other Phils fans. The crowd here are insightful and respectful or maybe edited. It was a fun run here and what a talented team. These Phillies are truly the best of my lifetime. I am more of an instict Baseballer than a stat head.

Brian G i agree with locking up Lee now at a reasonable cost and I hope the phils can break their policy of not paying pitchers big money on long term deals. This one is going to take 15-20 mil per year i think. He certainly deserves a bundle and I hope he has found a home here. The development of youngsters (Taylor, Drabek, Savery, Mathieson) should fill in the roster in the upcoming seasons and i forsee us competing for some more titles. We have Hall of Famers Utley and Howard to watch for the remainder of their careers i hope. The baseball torch should be burning here for quite awhile. Enjoy the ride people. The workmanlike demeanor of these fine young athletes have certainly bonded with Philadelphia and are a perfect match. It is sad Harry and Johnny Marz were not here to enjoy 09 and future accomplishments with us.

Thank you 09 Phillies, you gave us so so much.

[JJG]

I would consider trading Taylor in a package for Halliday. What else besides Taylor and Happ would it take to land Halliday after the Jays lost leverage by blowing the trade deadline.

Halladay
Lee
Hamels
Blanton
Moyer (challenged by Kendrick in ST and Drabek after ASG)

[doubleh]

Just saw Scott Eyre being interviewed by CSN whether or not he will be back next year--and the man was near tears when discussing how much he's loved playing with "this group of guys". Says if they want him back, he'll be back, but he will retire if they don't resign him.

He was pretty good for us this year, and as relievers are a crap shoot for the most part, I don't know how good he can/would continue to be, but we will start the season without Romero...so he might be worth it.

[Old Phan]

Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, but I was talking about Halliday to a friend and he thought the Phils should offer Hamels in a deal. Not sure I would do that, but it was intriguing.

[Mick in Houston]

Great baseball season. Thanks to JW for running such a stand up blog. And thanks to all the great comments. It makes BL a great site.

[gobaystars]

hypothetical situation, the phillies are 7 or so up at the break next year and cliff lee has been dominant. should charlie rest lee and let him pitch the all star game like it is his regular start? the thinking being that an extra home game in the series is worth more than one regular season cliff lee start.
Thoughts?

[EastFallowfield]

Both the Yankees and Phils had 3 home games in the series. Don't think it mattered much, obviously.

As for the picture, yep, it's from last Halloween.

[Wade]

Great season. I hope next year Happ doesn't have his progress interrupted by freaky looking old washed up Pedro.

I thought Happ deserved better. Never know if any of these guys will get back again.

Rematch with NY next year would be perfect.

[bay_area_phan]

Here's MLBTR's list, from a month ago, of potential non-tenders:

Jeremy Accardo
Garrett Atkins
John Bale
Denny Bautista
Jose Bautista
Matt Belisle
Boof Bonser
Bill Bray
Brian Bruney
Taylor Buchholz
John Buck
Dave Bush
Daniel Cabrera
Ryan Church
Neal Cotts
Jack Cust
Randy Flores
Mike Fontenot
Jeff Francoeur
Ryan Garko
Joey Gathright
Chad Gaudin
Jody Gerut
Gabe Gross
Craig Hansen
Aaron Heilman
Jeremy Hermida
Shawn Hill
Conor Jackson
Mike Jacobs
Bobby Jenks
Kelly Johnson
Logan Kensing
Noah Lowry
John Maine
Andy Marte
Seth McClung
Brandon Medders
Corky Miller
Justin Miller
Sergio Mitre
Dioner Navarro
Scott Olsen
Joel Peralta
Scott Proctor
Robb Quinlan
Kelly Shoppach
Tim Redding
Jeremy Reed
Jason Repko
Cory Sullivan
Jack Taschner
Mark Teahen
Marcus Thames
Josh Towers
Matt Treanor
Doug Waechter
Chien-Ming Wang
Tyler Yates
Delmon Young

Some of the guys on the list are never, in a million years, going to be come FAs (Conor Jackson and Delmon Young spring instantly to mind). Among the others, there aren't a lot of exciting names but there are a few guys who would be worth a flier as either a backup or a long-shot reclamation project (Ryan Church, Chien-Ming Wang, Garrett Atkins, John Maine). Here's another intriguing reclamation project: Andy Marte. He has been an abysmal failure at the major league level, but he did have a big year at AAA last year & it was only a few years ago that he was regarded as one of the top prospects in baseball. Worth a spring training invite?

[G-Town Dave]

"Hard to believe that in 2009, on a blog as generally intelligent as this one, that batting average with RISP can be cited as a reason to keep Pedro Feliz."

It's hard to believe that anyone here believes that the Phillies would sign Chone Figgins & force Charlie Manuel (& that's what it will take, an order from the FO) to remove J-Roll as leadoff hitter. I know I can't imagine such a thing happening, & as such find it pointless to discuss Figgins as a replacement for Feliz. Bottom line, I'm not supporting Feliz so much as I am opposing Figgins. I'm all for upgrading at 3B, just so long as it's a deal that makes financial sense, & doesn't cost the Phillies Vic or Werth.

[G-Town Dave]

... in Fantasy Land I would, however, *LOVE* to be able to trade Cole Hamels for Ryan Zimmerman. Not only would it solve the Phillies' 3B issues, I would glean immeasurable pleasure from watching Cole dissolve into a petulant puddle of goo from having to pitch for a team that's actually bad defensively.

[DH Phils]

G-Town: I agree with you on pretty much everything you said. I think signing Figgins cannot and should not happen, but my reasons are that he will command too much money and his career has been inconsistent. I can't see it happening either, but playoff performance and BA w/RISP aren't part of the reason.

I think losing Victorino or Werth is something that the Phillies are going to have to deal with sooner rather than later. The Phillies simply cannot pay 5-6 superstars who have reached free agency. Outfield is a position of strength in the Phillies' system. I think the writing is on the wall for Victorino or Werth, and if it was up to me, Victorino would be the one to go.

[G-Town Dave]

DH Phils: I agree that eventually Vic or Werth is gonna hafta go, & I would also prefer it be Vic. However, I think keeping both of them here for '10 is still the best option. This core group has one more great run in them; I can feel it.

[DH Phils]

Old Phan: You have to expect the strong negative criticism of Feliz. He was a miserable hitter this year (again), especially in the second half. The difference this year was that his clueless approach at the plate and .700 OPS were in the starting lineup for 150 of the 162 games.

Criticism of Pedro Feliz' hitting is not over-the-top. Were it not for the even-more-clueless Emilio Bonifacio, Feliz would've been the worst-hitting 3B in the NL this year.

[DH Phils]

G-Town: Agreed, but I don't think it's crazy to listen on Victorino, especially if you can upgrade third base. Not saying I'd trade him, but I think you have to consider it.

[Joe]

Metsblog reporting that with "2 or 3 moves"
the Mets should be able to take the NL East next year. Describes the Marlins and Braves as being on the rise but the Phillies as "weakening." Just delusional.

[DH Phils]

Mets should be better next year just by having fewer injuries, but there are still quite a few holes in that team, including 1st base, corner outfield, and rotation spots 2 through 5. I expect them to grab a Randy Wolf type and either Holliday or Bay, which would fill some of those holes. I'd be surprised if the Mets aren't competitive next year.

Not sure how the Phillies are weakening though. Other than Ibanez, the team is pretty young. There weren't many Phillies who overachieved this year, except for Happ and maybe Blanton.

[Dave X]

3B is certainly an area that could be improved upon. Fangraphs has Figgins worth 3 more wins from batting alone over Feliz, and better in the field as well. If you go back to previous years, however, the gap is much smaller. An upgrade that may or may not be worthwhile dependent upon the terms of the contract.

Pitching is probably a bigger worry. Lee and Hamels will be fine, but there's got to be expected regression from Happ. Blanton is average, and Moyer will be one year older and one more year worse. The bullpen is also a mess, as the scouts and analysis I've seen of Lidge suggests that his problems were not luck based (as Cole's were) but rather just declining command.

Either way, all this talk is missing the point. There are two reasons we didn't win the WS this year.

One was the euphoria after Game 1. So many people thought that, with Lee dominant, and the Phillies' bats awake, that we would crush the Yankees. This made the BL Gods very angry and thus caused us to lose the series. Note that the Reverse Jinx, after everyone was piling on Utley for the last 2 months of the season and first couple series, caused him to have a historic WS run.

The second reason we lost was the roster changeover from '08. Simply put, Ben Francisco is no So Taguchi. Taguchi was clearly the only reason the Cardinals, and his good luck and ability to just make the team win transferred over to the Phillies for his only season with us. Look what happened when he left - we lost the Series.

[Justadude]

http://www.newyorker.com/images/2009/11/09/cartoons/091109_cartoon_5_a14602_p465.gif

[Unikruk]

If that list bears fruit, the Phils need to snatch up Redding and stash him in AA, posthaste!

Oh, and baystars, thanks for reminding me - it's going to be great having Charlie stock the NL AS team with Phils and then reading complaints about how some of those players should have been left off for a rest.

[TEB 33]

Re: Feliz's Option
Anyone know what the market will be like for free agent 3rd basemen next November? Any better options than this year?

I'm hoping Rubin's planning long term, invests the extra cash that these deep runs in the playoffs generate wisely and builds a contender beyond 2011...

[kart racer]

So my previously unborn son must of saw the state of sadness I was in after the phillies lost last night, so he decided this morning he would come out a few weeks early to take my mind off the loss. It worked.

Now that he was born today, I don't really mind about the phillies losing! They had a good run though, and I'll expect to see them in the mix next season.

[G-Town Dave]

Congrats, kart racer! My son was due on 22 Sept., but decided he wanted to take in as much of the season as possible & arrived on 11 Aug. instead. I know exactly what you mean about it taking the edge off of the loss ... well, that plus the fact that the Phils won it all in '08, so it's not just another unending string of Philly "almosts". Regardless, congrats again! :-D

[ooal]

congratulations kart racer!

I hope mother & son are both doing well.