Cat's out of the bag: Phillies catching in crosshairs

The Mets have run circles around the Phillies this series, swiping seven bags. The uncontested running game has some Beerleaguers wondering if Brian Schneider's playing days are behind him while they hold their breath over Carlos Ruiz's shoulder injury. Readers chime in.

"Another stinker behind the plate by Schneider: 0-for-3, a .143 BA after the game, and four stolen bases given up. You can put a fork in this guy - he's done. And considering the potentially serious problem with Ruiz's throwing shoulder, the Phillies were lucky to get Paul Hoover through waivers so that they could outright him, considering all the current catching injuries around the league, particularly in Washington and Milwaukee. In his two weeks up from LV, Hoover played circles around Schneider's performance thus far: hitting, throwing and working with the pitchers, his only blemish being that freak play on Sunday where "Wickets the glove man" Dobbs (speaking of guys who are done) failed to move to his left to take Hoover's throw in the run-down between home and third." - davthom73

Beerleaguer: Anyone who's followed this site for a number of years knows that if davthom73 appears in the comments thread, catching is in the eye of the storm. Davthom73 has long championed the Chris Coste cause and we haven't seen him around these parts in since early 2009. Coste, by the way, is out for the season with Tommy John surgery after signing a late-spring deal with the Nationals. Hidden agendas aside, davthom73's point is a valid one, even if he's taking a not-so-subtle dig at catcher who secured two years of guaranteed money from the Phils.

Let's face it: Schneider hasn't done squat and has already spent time on the DL. Mets fans know this all too well. Dan Kehl, who follows the IronPigs religiously and writes about them on his blog, said Schneider even looked out of gas during his stay in the Lehigh Valley. He was 0 for 8 and didn't hit the ball hard anywhere, Kehl wrote.

We now understand why Charlie Manuel was hush-hush about Chooch's injury, which has been revealed as lingering shoulder problems that affect his throwing. Before last night's game, Phillies catchers were throwing out 23 percent of base-stealers, the fifth-worst mark in the league. It'll get worse before it gets better.

Comments

[A-Train]

I was one who was very happy with the Schneider signing. I thought it was a big upgrade over Paul Bako. I knew he wouldn't hit much over .200 but he always played good defense and handled the staff well wherever he was. Plus, since he's left handed, I thought he could get some starts vs. tough righties and not miss much when Chooch was out.

On the stolen bases, some of his throws were late. The ones that were not were off target.

I was correct about the hitting but if his defense has fallen off, it's not a good thing.

How many catchers will we draft next week???

[Bay Slugga]

At least catching problems are the our biggest problems. At least we still have our powerhouse offense...

[Bruce Ruffin]

Thanks, Jason -- asked and answered regarding Carlos' shoulder. Geesh.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Why did they give Schneider 2 years?

[Ramon]

Because Ruben Amaro likes to sign over-the-hill players to multiyear deals.

[HammRadio]

We had a huge thread about who was the phillie we could least afford to lose... @MG made excellent points that the Phillies were fine without Ruiz. Had a lower winning percentage but not significant enough to matter much. That's probably a testament to Coste and Bako more than anything.

But Schneider is no Coste nor Bako it seems. Although, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt if he's not 100%. And personally, I'm actually comfortable running with Hoover.

Jason you didn't touch on the other point overriding the catching picture. That Amaro and Gillick spent a lot of time and $$ trying to supplement Ruiz' growth with veteran back ups like Barajas and Paulino. Two guys who virtually did zero here (Barajas brought nothing to the table and actually took things OFF the table). And watching him hit line drive after line drive, is like a knife twist. [I believe that he was hired by NL East foes to sabotage the Phillies personally. But I believe in conspiracy theories.]

But the hidden piece to this catching mess is the White Whale. By not getting Halladay in 2009, Amaro was forced to give up TWO catchers (Marson to get Lee, then D'Arnaud to Get Halladay). If Amaro makes the Halladay deal in 09, we lose one catcher (most likely D'Arnaud.) And Marson is your backup. And Schneider is likely not here.

The jury is still out on Marson. So its possible that Amaro might have brought in a Schneider type anyway.

Oh if only Mrs Molina could have had more children

[J. Weitzel]

Talking with a Mets fan about how Barajas continues to kill the Phillies. He reminded me how Schneider used to kill the Phillies and wondered if maybe the guy who kills you continues to kill you after you acquire him.

[Account Deleted]

This was Schneider's first game back from an injury. He's played only 8 games this season. I'm not worried about him yet. He just hasn't played enough.

I don't think losing Marson and D'Arnaud is a very big deal. D'Arnaud is at least 2-3 years away from even contributing as a backup in the big leagues. And Marson has been even worse than Schneider considering how many games he's played so far.

[Gsl]

JW- Yeah, I feel for your Mets buddy! First he had to deal with Barajas killing the mets when he was on the Phillies. Now he has to live with Barajas killing the Mets when he plays against the Phillies!

He must feel your pain.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Phillies had a competent backup Catcher in Rod Barajas. I never really understood why he was so loathed here. The guy actually grew up a Phillies/Schmidt fan in California.

[Gsl]

On second thought, I am glad that he may not share a similar experience on Barajas. I do not think I want to be able to say I can relate to Mets fans when it comes to misery.

[J. Weitzel]

Hamm: Great points.

[Andy]

JW - Barajas killed us already when he was here.

The deal which strikes me as the dumbest of the dumb catcher moves, in retrospect, is the Jaramillo deal for Ronnie "They Don't Call Me Bad Attitude for Nuthin" Paulino. At that point in time we had Jaramillo, Marson and D'Arnaud, (and the afrementioned object of davthom's affections) and it seemed like a good idea to use one of them for something we needed. Instead, we burned Jaramillo on a Catcher the front office ended up despising enough to trade him for an aging trash middle reliever. From that point on, in all the deals which have been made, the net catcher population in the Phillies system has only degraded.

Dumb. They needed to make one of the (even marginal) catching prospects untouchable.

[HammRadio]

@andy -- you are right. that one was the most egregious. paulino must have been a really bad egg.

[RodeoJones]

If I recall Marson wasn't great at throwing runners out either, so I wouldn't consider not having him as part of the problem.

[Steve The Met Fan]

Schneider hasn't been good since he joined the Mets. His defense was completely overrated, and his hitting was atrocious. Met fans were very happy to be rid of him. (Except of course when he made that great tag against the Giants a few weeks ago. LOL)

GSL: Yeah, the 10 homers and 27 RBI that Barajas has in the first two months of the season are truly painful to watch for Met fans.

[thephaithful]

I remember when Milwood for Estrada was a steal until Estrada hit like .300 fo the next three years.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

At least we can say the Phils seem to have a decent track record of drafting catchers. Maybe they'll pick up the LSU or U. of Miami C in the 1st rd. Assuming, he's toolsy enough.

[MG]

It is too early to be down on Schneider although the odds that he will be productive this year are much less than Francisco. Basically, this is a guy who is in his mid-30s & hasn't hit a lick since '08.

His deal this year isn't bad but the kicker is the $1.6M next year. That's a fair amount for a guy who might be washed up at MLB level.

I will agree with DavThom though that Schneider has shown next to nothing defensively. Just like Bako last year. Both guys were once good defensive catchers but those days are past. Neither guy has a good arm anymore, was a notable dropoff in blocking pitches in the dirt, and wasn't a terribly great fielder on stuff in front of the plate.

If there is one position where you could say that Amaro has completely bungled GM it would be the catching situation. Misfire after misfire.

This team can win & has won without Chooch playing a major roll. Yeah they are a better team but the dropoff between say Chooch vs. Hoover is vast as JRoll vs. Castro/Valdez.

[Gsl]

Steve the Met Fan: I know, that was the point of my post.

[MG]

Mets have showed that you should 'run, baby, run' this series especially when the Geezer, KK, or Blanton is one the mound. Phils' don't emphasize the pitch-out much nor do they place a big priority on pickoff throws & keeping the runner close to 1st. Reminds me of the days when Kerrigan was the pitching coach. He didn't care much about those things either & teams would run a fair amount against the Phils.

[Chris in VT]

thephaithful - Yeah, but for 3 different teams...for some reason everyone always seemed eager to replace Estrada. Was his defense atrocious? Or his attitude?

[NEPP]

Every update on D'Arnaud that shows more and more that he's a great catching prospect is another knife in my gut. BP has him helping the Jays as early as 2012 and he's been basically the steal of that trade.

Trading 3 catcher prospects in 12 months is ridiculous.

[jr]

Time for RA to cut his losses. Let Schneider and Dobbs go. Can't convince me there isn't someone at LHV or RPhils (beside Brown,needs to play everyday) who can do better than 1-19.Give someone a chance.Rock the boat!

[bay_area_phan]

Andy: Jaramillo for Paulino was actually a good trade. Both are backup catchers, except Paulino is in the mold of Chris Coste in that he can hit a little, whereas Jaramillo is in the mold of Paul Bako in that he can't hit at all. The mistake was turning around & giving Paulino away for Taschner.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

BAP: Exactly. I know it's hindsight, but at the time, wasn't it believed that Taschner was going to be released by SF anyway?

[NEPP]

Trading for Jogging Ronny Paulino was a terrible idea and he ran himself out of the clubhouse before the end of spring training. He fits in great on a team like Florida that doesnt care about chemistry but he was a bad fit for our clubhouse and many saw that before hand. We should have just kept Jaramillo.

[NEPP]

Jaramillo is a career .670 OPS hitter at the MLB level.

Schneider is giving us a brilliant .393 OPS and even over the past 5 seasons, he's only been good for a .660 OPS. His defense was all he brought to the table and he looks like Piazza out there.

[Suze]

@Bedrosian:

Barajas was killed by fans here because he was a terrible catcher, who couldn't be bothered to block the plate in crucial situations (as in the infamous game in Florida).

He also sucked as a hitter when he was on the Phils.

[Suze]

Let me refresh your memory, with the following excerpt from a story by Mike Sielski:

While playing for the Phillies in 2007, Rod Barajas famously failed to block the plate, allowing Hanley Ramirez to tie the score in the ninth.

Philadelphia’s distaste for Mr. Barajas goes beyond his less-than-stellar 2007 season with the Phillies, when he hit .230 with four home runs in 48 games. In fact, it can be traced to a single play in a single game on a single day—May 23, 2007—and a tradition that’s long been part of the ethos of being a catcher.

That night, at Sun Life Stadium in Miami, the Phillies began the bottom of the ninth inning with Mr. Barajas behind the plate, closer Brett Myers on the mound, and a four-run lead over the Florida Marlins. The Marlins, though, cut the lead to one.

With Hanley Ramirez on second base with two outs, Florida’s Aaron Boone singled to center field. The throw beat Mr. Ramirez home. But instead of blocking the plate, Mr. Barajas stood up to try to tag Mr. Ramirez, who was able slide through Mr. Barajas’s legs and score the tying run.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Suze: I forgot about that game.

[Heather]

Can someone educate me on why the heck Hoover isn't playing while Schneider goes through his "funk" or whatever it is? Hoover played decently enough while he was up here to look a fair cut above Schneider. Aren't we supposed to playing whoever gives the Phillies the best chance of winning?

If Hoover starts getting sucktastic, then try Schneider again. But from my perspective, Hoover came up here, did everything he was asked to do and more, and got rewarded by being demoted back to AAA in favor of a guy who has a bigger contract but is playing worse. Doesn't make much sense to me, maybe someone can explain.

[curt]

Johnny Estrada was an amazing dude - managed to hit .300 while being so slow he made Pat Burrell look like a sprinter. The only guy in ML history to never go 1st to 3rd on a single. One game late in his career he was thrown out at 1B three consecutive times by the RF.

[bay_area_phan]

In truth, 21 ABs is just a bit too soon to declare failure on Brian Schneider -- especially considering that many of the people who are declaring failure are the same people who lauded the signing at the time it was made. What is disconcerting, though, is that, in the past, he always had one of the top throwing arms in baseball. Yet his defense & throwing arm have been barely passable this year.

Dobbs is a different story. He was bad last year & has been truly awful this year. And, unlike Schneider, the Phillies aren't contractually obligated to pay him beyond this year. In recent years, the Phillies have shown very little inclination to replace their bench players in mid-season. But if we get to the AS break and Dobbs is still showing no signs of hitting, the Phillies will have to think long & hard about finding someone to replace him. But it has to be someone who can play 3rd base. When your starting 3rd baseman is nearly 35, and needs an occasional day off, neither Juan Castro nor Wilson Valdez is a viable backup plan.

[Suze]

No problem, Bedrosian.

That game in Florida is seared into my consciousness -- and my anger is renewed every time Barajas gets a hit off of the Phillies.

[MG]

It still amazes me that people remember that May 23rd game for the Barajas play (which was bad) but almost completely forget about Cholly's stupidity of leaving Myers in the game after that play.

Lead to Myers getting hurt (he said as much after the season), spending over 2 months on the DL, and creating an adventure at closer that cumulated with the Mesa resigning as closer for a bit.

[MG]

'07 and '08 helped to temper my attitudes toward this team. I thought they were done a couple of times in '07 especially when Utley went down for what looked like the season.

Same in '08 when were desperately scuffling in Sept. and essentially needed to somehow sweep that 4-game series vs. Brewers.

Willing to give this team the benefit of the doubt until then. They have also responded almost every time Cholly has called a 'closing door' meeting. Honestly I would love to see someone come up with their record but I would imagine they have only lost 1-2 games since a 'closed door' meeting since '07.

[R.Billingsly]

I think it's a little unfair to hate Barajas because of one or two mistakes in one or two games while he was in PHI.

I dislike Rod for many more reasons that. I won't get into them, because they are anecdotal and, quite honestly, dumb reasons to dislike someone. I disliked him when he was with AZ. I disliked him when he was in TX. I was angry when the Phils signed him. He stunk here. Then, he has the audacity to kill the Phils when he returned with TOR. And now he is with the god forsaken Mets, and he is killing the Phils again. My anger grows more and more each day.

A career .240/.284/.415/.699 hitter that hits .348/.378/.768/1.146 against the Phils? What a joke. And he has a WS Ring!

[MG]

Revisionist history:

- It wasn't the play by Barajas that really sunk him with the fans & media types. Dobbs made a throw home that was just as ill-advised and foolish.

It was the fact that Barajas made that infamous post-game comment about "laughing about it later." Just the wrong thing to say at the wrong time after a really tough loss on a team that was really struggling at the time.

Dobbs atoned after the game by basically stated he wished he could have taken back the throw & didn't know what he was thinking. That was the difference between Dobbs & Barajas.

The most interesting thing is that after that game no one on the Phils - not his teammates, not Cholly, and not the FO said a word publicly about Barajas either.

Barajas was just more a lightening rod at a time when this team was struggling and Cholly was within a losing streak of being fired.

[Otm_Shank]

"Yet his defense & throwing arm have been barely passable this year."

As a Mets fan, that's one of the reasons that he was released (along with the injuries and poor hitting). There were also rumors that his handling of the pitching staff was suspect at best.

[GBrettfan]

Depressing thoughts, JW. At least HammRadio gave me a laugh with this lament:

"Oh if only Mrs Molina could have had more children."

Get well soon, Chooch! JRoll, too!

[ozark]

Let's not forget the fact that the Phils aren't stealing any bases either. They obviously need to manufacture runs with their anemic offense.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: That is exactly right. If Barajas had simply owned up to his blunder, he would not be the object of such scorn among Phillies fans.

It should also be added that there was a broader context behind the whole Florida incident. When we signed Barajas, Lieberthal had just left to sign with the Dodgers. Ruiz was the heir apparent, who'd hit well in the minors & in his brief call-up the year before. Then there was Coste, who was coming off a sensational rookie year in which he hit .328/.376/.505 & became an instant fan favorite. But, for whatever reason, the Phillies' brass didn't like Coste so, when they signed Barajas, it meant that Coste had to be sent down to AAA after having a ridiculously good rookie season. Phillies' fans were mad & there was resentment against Barajas right from Day 1.

That resentment only grew worse once the season started, and Barajas immediately began stinking it up. He hit .214 in April, .212 in May, .205 in June, and .188 in July. Just to further stoke the ire of Phillies' fans, Coste got a brief call-up at some point, due to injuries, and he immediately started hitting just as he had in 2006.

The plate-blocking incident didn't happen until, I believe, August. By that time, the Phillies fans already hated Barajas simply for being on the team. In fact, many Phillies fans (including yours truly) hated him from Day 1 because we felt that the Phillies already had 2 catchers who were better than he was. If only Barajas had blocked the plate as well as he blocked Chris Coste's path to the major leagues. . .

[MG]

BAP - The plate-blocking incident was on May 23rd vs. Fish. That was right around the blowout with Eskin that Cholly had & I really though the Phils were close to firing him because they were 23-24 (6.5 GB of Mets), had played pretty inconsitent baseball up to that point, and were coming off two season where they had come up short again under Cholly.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: For some reason, I remembered the plate-blocking being later in the season. But the rest of my chronology, I'm certain, is accurate. Phillies fans were already predisposed to hate Barajas because everyone except Pat Gillick thought that the Phillies' catching situation was fine with Coste & Ruiz, & that Barajas was actually a substantial downgrade from Coste. The plate-blocking incident -- and his subsequent comments about it -- only further fueled the fans' contempt for Barajas.

[RK]

I would simply go and find on our farm which ever catcher has a strong throwing arm and bringhim up. I wouldn't worry about the hitting even Ruiz is a streaky hitter (although his streaks are usually in the post season which is good).
Alternatively let's bring Werth back to behind teh plate--although I doubt he'll go for it.
We can't do with Ruiz this year what we did with Lidge last year and we all know who stupid that was.
We need someone who can intimidate runners other wise we arenot going anywhere this year.

[Jack]

We should definitely take the best right-fielder in all of baseball and put him behind the plate for the first time in 10 years. That works.

[HammRadio]

There's only one thing Gillick can do. He must release Barajas immediately. It is unacceptable to do what he did.

And he must fire Manuel. A stand must be made. This was unacceptable. Losing this game was absolutely unacceptable.
If he does not do this... Monty must fire Gillick et al.

Season over.

Posted by: Mike Cunningham | Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 10:40 PM

I'm not saying I can't fly off the handle... and i'm one of the more glass 3/4 full guys on this board... but GEEZ did that game piss me off!!!

[NEPP]

I think my response was better:

"No way, Mike. This game is a turning point for us. This team will definitely turn it around, have a great 2nd half and snatch the division from the Mets on the final day of the season. Furthermore, I think this is the turning point of the franchise. I could very easily see us winning the NL East for the next 3 years in a row with a couple of WS appearances tossed in there for good measure."

Posted by: NEPP | Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 10:43 PM

[HammRadio]

@NEPP - LOL

[Oliver]

I think giving Schneider a break for now is a good idea, especially with Chooch hurting. I honestly wouldn't be torn up if he (Ruiz) went on the 15-day DL just to get healthy and start contributing again. On the other hand, Schneider needs a short leash, and I want to see more of Hoover, who batted .278 in his brief stint with a few runs and RBI and was good behind the plate.

To be honest, though, we need some life. Here's hoping Cholly's closed-door meeting is effective.

[RK]

here are the problems we are facing no Rollins (at least not the old Rollins)and no Ruiz. Those are two very serious holes to plug.

My gut tells me that the Rollins injury and please don't shoot me stems from the eyar he hit 30 HRs which was very out of character for him. It was fun but the kind of juice that creates this sudden power production is notoriously detrimental to your logevity and is injury prone.

Ruiz on the other hand was always considered not very durable whch makes teh absence of a srong number two really odd and shows a serious lapse of management.

[josh in la]

You have to love the fact that before yesterdays game UC went on and on about the uselessness of closed door meetings..then has one 4 hours later gotta love it..Its almost like when you have binoculars trained on the opposing catcher with your centerfielder on the bullpen phone and you swear up and down he was helping YOUR catcher align himself on the plate properly and that everyone is seeing the wrong thing. Cameras be damned truth be damned reality be damned were the phillies lol. " he was looking at our guy" yeah the guy sitting on the bench!!! worst excuse ever. What a phony.

[NEPP]

****My gut tells me that the Rollins injury and please don't shoot me stems from the eyar he hit 30 HRs which was very out of character for him. It was fun but the kind of juice that creates this sudden power production is notoriously detrimental to your logevity and is injury prone. ****

Or he could just be experiencing the same issues that many speed guys experience in their early-to-mid 30s. He's currently on the Alan Trammell career path...which is bad news for us as Phillies fans.

[Old Phan]

How long has Chooch supposedly had these shoulder problems, and why was Hoover sent down and Schneider kept?

[NEPP]

Because Hoover is a career AAA player while Schneider has a 2 year deal.

[Bubba]

why was Hoover sent down and Schneider kept?

Old Phan - good question.

Your #1 catcher is nursing several injuries
Your #2 catcher is just back from the DL and wasn't playing well before that.
Your #3 catcher was doing OK and healthy.
Solution - send the one healthy catcher to LV.

[josh in la]

ummmm dear Mike Sielski:
The marlins played in pro player park..it was not sunlife stadium till a few months ago .. do a little research come on

[Bedrosian's Beard]

#2 Catch is just BACK from the DL

and getting paid over $1mil.

That's why.

[josh in la]

NEPP your really funny honestly a lot of your posts really make me laugh your one bright dirty phillie fan you must have be hated by your derelict neighbors..and hammradio why on earth do yo have a post from 2007 thats a bit creepy hey?

[Old Phan]

Money is not a good reason to use an inferior (at least for the moment)player, but that's one of a million reasons why i couldnt own a baseball team.

[C13]

"And he must fire Manuel. A stand must be made. This was unacceptable. Losing this game was absolutely unacceptable.
If he does not do this... Monty must fire Gillick et al.

Season over."

I hate to be a nit picker. But the fact is, that after Barajas declined to block the plate and Myers blew his shoulder out, the Phillies actually ended up winning that 5/23/07 game on a hit or a run by JRoll, I believe. It kind of felt like a loss though because of what happened with Barajas and Myers.

[jr]

Matthew R. Rizzotti,3 run walk off HR last night.He's a dh,bring him up for interleague play. See if he can get some hits.
Also that Matheison guy,who isn't ready for the big time yet,another save last night,ERA now 0.76.$$$$$

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Old Phan: I tend to agree with you, but I dunno that the Phils think of Hoover being a better option anyway.

[bay_area_phan]

I won't defend Schneider's recent play, which has been terrible. But this lovefest for Paul Hoover is bizarre. He hit .253 with 1 homerun and a .668 OPS last year -- at AAA, that is. The year before that, he hit .251 in the offense-friendly Pacific Coast League. He is not some young, improving prospect. He's 6 months older than Schneider & is a quintessential minor league journeymen. Over his 13-year career, he has amassed 4,144 minor league PAs and all of 101 PAs in the major leagues -- never getting more than 42 total PAs in a season. In those 101 career major league PAs, he has posted a career OPS which is .44 points below Eric Bruntlett's.

So he gets called up for a week and he goes 5 for 18, & suddenly everyone thinks he's Joe Mauer.

[NEPP]

You know, I've been thinking for a long time, "I really wish I had a Ryan Howard Garden Gnome"...and BOOM:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20100527_Annette_John-Hall__Garden_gnome_giveaway_is_no_all-star.html?cmpid=41144277&submit=Vote&oid=2&mr=1&cid=8500281&pid=95005304&95005304=Y

[GBrettfan]

In thinking about tonight's game, I have realized that my expectations for the Phils have been temporarily lowered by their string of poorly-played losses. Which means, on the upside, that when they do next win a game, I will be that much happier for the unexpectedness of it.

[NEPP]

Pretty much what BAP said. Hoover is not the answer.

[thephaithful]

C13 beat me to it... the game was a W in the books, although it might have had the highest 'This Game Feels Like a Loss" rating ever.

[josh in la]

NEPP that's not real..they just happened to bronze Gary Coleman and didn't know what to do with him

[Bubba]

Bed Beard- I know what your saying about the money, but it seems like the one catcher without the question mark next to his health status should be at the ballpark ready to go.
If neither catcher can throw out runners, we are going to be giving up SB like we did last night.
Chooch , if he plays, will be tested tonight , you can bet

[Chris in VT]

RK - Rollins' power didn't appear out of nowhere...he always has pretty solid power prior to 07, including a 25 HR season in 06. A far more likely explanation is that he hit his peak as a hitter in '06 + '07, which would make a lot of sense since those were his age 27 and 28 seasons, which is when virtually all hitters peak.

Rollins is simply starting to experience his decline off that peak, which can be extremely precipitous depending on the player. If he was juicing then his peak would likely last into his mid-30s (like certain other hitters in the 90s/early 2000s).

[thephaithful]

MG: its charlie's fault that he left Myers in after Barajas blew the save..because he should have "known" Myers was going to blow his shoulder out the next pitch?

I will admit, I definitely knew Myers was going to overthrow and blow his arm out, but thats because I hate myers and know he is a moron - but his coach shouldnt have to think like that.

Also, my spring training prediction of KK having a lower ERA than Myers:

Myers: 3-3 61IP 3.25 ERA 1.410 WHIP
KK: 2-2 49IP 5.66 ERA 1.480 WHIP

not looking too good.

[Old Phan]

BAP, there is no lovefest for Hoover. The question is what is the better option right now, and I think it's Hoover, especially given the Phillies recent offensive drought.

[Spitz]

I'm looking forward to Scheinder going 2-3 with a HR and a double tonight. BL reverse jinx in full effect!

[Old Phan]

Spitz, I hope you're right. Schneider is still a pro, so he is capable of having a good game.

[bay_area_phan]

Old Phan: I have a hard time coming to grips with any argument that says we need Paul Hoover on the roster because of his bat.

[Spitz]

Remember when the Phils had first and third with 1 out in a 2-0 game against a very mediocre pitcher last night? Only to have Howard strike out and Werth fly out weakly? Hoover, Schieder, Ruiz, or Jonny Bench couldn't have helped that situation. That's the bigger problem with the Phils offense right now, not the backup catcher.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Backup C and LOOGies tend to capture the imagination of any BLers.

[bay_area_phan]

I'll go out on a limb and make a prediction:

Because of his shoulder, Ruiz will miss a fair amount of time (and may even go on the DL) over the next month or two. Scheider will be our regular catcher during that time. By the All Star break, his numbers will be right in line with career norms & his overall defense will have been pretty good. In short, he will prove to have been a good signing - just as most of us thought at the time the signing was made.

The Phillies have been horrendous in every phase of the game over the last week. Brian Schneider wasn't even on the roster for most of that time & didn't even get into a game until yesterday. He is hardly the focal point of the Phillies' woes.

[HammRadio]

@josh in la -- a lot of folks on beerleaguer have been around for a while... so its fairly common for the same arguments to prop up... google/beerleaguer searches make it fairly easy to go back in the archives to find the game thread...

Enjoy, this is the part of the game that gets most tense:
http://beerleaguer.typepad.com/beerleaguer/2007/05/game_chat_pitch/comments/page/2/#tp

Its really easy to look at a games in 2007 with Officially Licensed 2008 World F'n Champion Sun Glasses. And while one game usually don't matter to a hill of beans in a 162 game season. That game, even though we won the game in extras, had as much on the future of the 2007 Phillies as much as it had no affect and we said as much that's all. The resilience of the team to come back to win that game was the same reason they were able to pull off the miracle in September. But the problems highlighted in that game (Re: Bullpen Depth) was the reason that the 2007 run was improbable. We won the division despite Jose Mesa's greatest efforts to sabotage. {mesa, helms, and barajas are my leading candidates for this conspiracy. :) }

despite following the marlins series witha hard fought sweep of the braves, they grinded their games for the next 2 weeks falling as much as 8.5 games back (the most all season). For all intents and purposes, that season was over at that point. That we know otherwise doesn't change the feelings on beerleaguer that the season was slipping away. And that a second half surge would only have us fall short.

[BENTZ]

I was pretty sure that Abraham Nunez either had the game-winning hit or scored the go-ahead run in that Marlins game.

[MG]

HammRadio - Hell they were only 44-44 at the ASB in '07 and it was really hard to see them being able to make a legit push despite their prolific offense because the pitching was that bad especially in the bullpen.

As many dramatic games as they won that summer late, they lost nearly as many because the bullpen was that horrid.

[HammRadio]

@MG -- its stunning to this day that the season turned the way it did... (I wish I could say the Rockies series never happened.) But as we were discussing the other day, they became the Phillies we know now, on the BPS with the Mets with Utley knocking in Iguchi... on this day in question... they were still the 2006 phillies.

[MG]

Speaking of ex-Phils players:

We may be pissing and moaning about the bench but look at what some of the ex-Phils bench players are doing right now:

Cairo - Backup middle INF who has been pretty terrible in both the field & at the plate for the Reds this year. 37 ABs in 23 G with a line of .216/.256/.324. He should be at T-AAA or retired.

Stairs - Continues his all or nothing approach at the plate which most times leaves the Padres' fans hungering for more. 38 ABs in 27 G with a line of .184/.273/.342. Lousy as a pinch hitter with just 3-17 and 2 XHB (on HRs). Another guy who should be playing in a soft league somewhere.

Bako - Catcher Valhalla.

The Phils didn't lose anything by replacing a single one of these guys. The guys they brought into replace them (Castro, Schneider, Gload) just haven't been that much better either in the early going.

[Willard Preacher]

Sounds like we need a dose of Sal Fasano, wherever the hell he might be now.

I agree that catcher/defense, while a concern right now, should be the least of our worries. This is one of, if not THE most talented offenses in all of baseball. Yet, we've scored 3 garbage runs in the last 3 games. Remember that list of stud pitchers we beat a couple weeks back? This is clearly not the same offense, and its not just because Chooch is on the shelf. They're pressing, too, which only exacerbates the situation. Hopefully whatever comes out of the closed door meeting relaxes these guys. Starting the likes of Ben Fran, Valdez and Dobbs isn't getting it done.

[Lake Fred]

We need to get the game rules for when hitting season is legal in the various states we play in. Obviously hitting season ended in Pennsylvania last Friday and it is not hitting season in New York, right now. It may be hitting season in Florida when we play on Friday. We need somebody to check this out. Another alternative is that it could still be hitting season in Pennsylvania, but the Phillies have hit their bag limit and are forbidden to get any more hits by the game warden.

[aksmith]

JW - I got the joke, apparently alone.

"a backup catcher who hasn't done squat."

Very funny. And yet, nobody else seems to have caught it. I thought this was the Phillies web destination for smart people.

[philwynk]

"I hate to be a nit picker. But the fact is, that after Barajas declined to block the plate and Myers blew his shoulder out, the Phillies actually ended up winning that 5/23/07 game on a hit or a run by JRoll, I believe. It kind of felt like a loss though because of what happened with Barajas and Myers. "

Posted by: C13 | Thursday, May 27, 2010 at 02:30 PM

"This game feels like a loss."

Posted by: bay_area_phan | Wednesday, May 23, 2007 at 4:35 PM

[Old Phan]

Is anyone blaming the Phils woes on the catcher situation? I can't believe that.
The problem at the moment is pretty much everything. They will snap out of it sooner than later.