Game chat: Phillies shuffle the deck for Doc tonight

Chase Utley and Raul Ibanez sit, and why the hell not? The Phillies, a scorching 12-3 in May, send Roy Halladay (6-1, 1.59) to the hill against Zach Duke (2-4, 5.56) as they look to continue their torrid pace.

Preview: Charlie Manuel goes with a different look again tonight, with Jimmy Rollins batting third again, Ben Francisco, who has just two at bats this entire month and hasn't started since April 26, playing left field and batting sixth and Juan Castro, making his first start since May 5, batting eighth and making his Phillies debut at second base. Carlos Ruiz is back behind the plate and hits seventh. First pitch is set for 7:05, weather permitting. [Jump to the newest comments]

Comments

[GTown_Dave]

Excerpted From Just How Unlistenable Is Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan, & Other Media Notes

"Facts & numbers aside, the thing that made me turn down the sound on the TV was actually Morgan's incessant & seemingly never-ending conversations about himself. When the crew discussed Jody Gerut hitting for the cycle last week, Miller asked Morgan if he had ever done it. After commenting that had he done it in "The Show," he'd likely remember, it was confirmed that he had never hit for the cycle. So, in response to that, Morgan offered this:

"Jon by the way, you asked if I had ever hit for the cycle. Well, they said I didn't, but I prefer to say that here in Milwaukee, in County Stadium, my rookie year, I had two home runs, two doubles & two singles. That's better than the cycle. Same game. Six hits. Six-for-six. No triples."

Jon, by the way, you asked me a question, so I'll answer that by telling you that I prefer to tell you about something I did that was great. Because I was great. Better than a cycle great, Jon. I was six-for-six great. As a rookie. Jon."

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:-)

[goody]

Hugh: Thanks, I love to study boxscores. Game time 1:53 and McCarver CS.

[Old Phan]

I remember watching that game. I forgot what a killer lineup the Phils had. Joe Lis?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

goody - same here - love box scores. baseball-reference.com is even better. McCarver in '71 had exactly 2 more home runs than Rick Wise (6). Looks like the '71 Phils had two 30 homer guys. I do not remember Deron Johnson. Willie Montanez, though, was a fun player to watch. But, on the subject of good phillies trades (those are discussed sometimes?), Montanez for Maddox was pretty eff'n successful.

[goody]

Doc's opponent for Sunday, Beckett, left in the 5th w/tightness in the lower back(101P). Game time 4:09+rain delay. 2 errors and 3 unearned runs on either side.

[bay_area_phan]

MG: It's not that I'm opposed to giving Francisco some starts against left-handers (even if he can't hit them). I'm not. I just find it amusing that so many Beerleaguers harp on it constantly, as if the ticket to a 2010 World Series title is to give Ben Francisco more playing time. And, yet, practically every time the guy steps onto the field, he seems to find a different way to help us lose -- whether it's butchering a play in the OF, getting thrown out on the base paths, hitting into an inning-ending DP, or stranding 8 base runners in 4 ABs.

We sure won't lose the 2010 World Series because Ben Francisco didn't get enough playing time. But we damn sure might lose a few extra games along the way because Cholly decided to play Francisco instead of Ibanez or Werth.

[bay_area_phan]

And, for the record, yeah I know he's a .771 career OPS player who isn't gonna stay below the Mendoza line all year, and will eventually have some big hits for us. The guy just irritates me, and he has since last season. You know the cliche about players who do all the little things right? Well, Francisco does all the little things wrong. He's a lousy base runner, despite plus speed. He makes tons of gaffes in the OF, despite being a supposedly good defensive player. He approaches every AB like it's a homerun or bust situation. And, of course, if it's an important situation like the World Series or a critical game situation with RISP, you can absolutely count on him to come up small. His track record in important situations is uncannily bad.

[denny b.]

"We sure won't lose the 2010 World Series because Ben Francisco didn't get enough playing time. But we damn sure might lose a few extra games along the way because Cholly decided to play Francisco instead of Ibanez or Werth."

Maybe if Ben would have gotten a few hits in the playoffs, the Phils might have won another game in the WS?

So we lose a game or two during a 162 game season if Ben is playing instead of Ibanez (who has done very little this year anyway) and Werth? That is the kind of "think about today only" mentality that Chuckles has. Where as the wise thing to do (which almost every other manager in baseball does) might be seeing the big picture and realizing that you just might need a couple of these bench guys to actually produce for you in a big game in a big spot in the future, and there chances of doing so will be greatly helped if they actually get off the pine and get a chance to swing the bat more then once or twice a week.

Might even help the established players to not have to carry the load day-in, and day-out and possibly push them to continue to produce, knowing someone else could steal some AB's/playing time.

I think the Phils would be better off at this time, moving Francisco anyway. You could acquire something in return, for a guy who has shown at times to be at worst a solid 4th OF and possibly a starter for some teams. It would be cheaper for them to bring Mayberry up to play Ben's role (whatever that is). And you might just be getting a better player with more power potential off the pine in the process.

[denny b.]

"I'm not worried at all about Roy's pitch count. Whether you want to call him old school, a throwback or whatever (I refer to him as a "pitcher") he can obviously handle the workload. I have to trust his judgment that if he thinks he can still pitch, let him"

Sounds great in theory. But some people around here were saying the same things about Hamels in 2008.

Pitchers ALWAYS think they are fine. They all want to pitch. They all think they can get the next guy. "One more Skip". "I can get him." If you leave it up to the pitcher, a guy like Halladay is never going to take himself out of a game. Especially when he is on the hook for the loss.

Facts are, pitch counts these days DO matter. These pitchers are not built, accustomed or programmed to throw as many pitches as they were 30 or 40 years ago. So comparing Robin Roberts or Steve Carlton with Doc is pointless.

What we can see though, is two of the top 5 games for pitches thrown for Doc that he HAS EVER THROWN IN A MLB GAME, have come in his last 2 starts. Toronto with no DH and not much around him, didn't allow him to go as long as Cholly is. I am sure they wanted to win just as bad as our guys do. I am sure they all felt he was the best option to get somebody out, instead of going to a bullpen guy.

The main complaint or concern most of us have, is there really was no reason in the middle of May in regular season games against the Rocks and Pirates, to push your #1 multi-million dollar a year horse as far as he was pushed the past 2 starts. Not when this team is built for the postseason and Halliday was brought in here to win games and be at his best in said post-season.

Plus its not like he was great the past 2 starts. He was actually pretty ordinary and just barely got out of the 8th and 9th innings tonight unscathed. These weren't "easy" outings. He had plenty of high-stress innings and the games he pitched in were close. 100 pitches when you are up 9-0 are different then 100 pitches when its 1-1.

Just unneccesary risk and low reward. Risk that seemed to be more about trying to get Doc a personal win for his W/L record, then worrying about the Phillies best interests.

[Dave]

Agreed. I was at the game and I couldn't believe that Manuel left him in that long. Of course Manuel does a lot of dumb things, so I guess I'm used to it. By the way, Sam Perlozzo has got to be one of the worst 3rd base coaches in my lifetime. I can't remember so many guys getting thrown out at home plate by such a wide margin. Last night the ball got to Doumit, then he took his wife out to dinner, and then came back to the ballpark and tug Werth out....ridiculous.

[phlipper]

Interesting theories.

Charlie made a mistake because he left his ace in the game, who subsequently kept the opponent scoreless and increased the odds of the Phillies winning.

Ryan Howard is having a bad start this year compared to other years because he's getting more hits and fewer strikeouts and walks.

Despite his remarkable success, Charlie is "dumb."

[EastFallowfield]

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