Feeble Phillies fall from first in loss to Braves

There was again no hitting, but also no fielding, no starting pitching and no relief in a painful 9-3 loss to the newly anointed division-leading Braves.

Technically, the Phils head to June as a second-place contender, but they are as brittle as any cellar-dwelling club in baseball. Frankly, it's getting difficult to remember this is the same squad that went to back-to-back World Series, let alone claimed ownership over most offensive categories only two weeks ago. The Phillies have long set a precedent of being a run-producing powerhouse, which makes this historic lull hard to fathom. Yesterday, a desperation lineup, highlighted by table setters Ross Gload and Greg Dobbs, was blanked through the first six frames until the Phillies rattled out four doubles in the seventh, scoring a gaudy three runs to ensure they wouldn't be shut out in six of their last nine games. Making matters worse was the fact that the Braves' lineup stayed fire-hot against Joe Blanton, who was lit up right out of the chute. Blanton allowed six runs, but only four earned due to critical errors by Ross Gload in right and Ryan Howard, who misplayed a ball at first. The Phils have been average at best defensively this season, maybe even a little below. Not that it mattered, but the bullpen hemorrhaged more runs after the Phillies cut the lead in half. Antonio Bastardo allowed a hit and a walk and resurgent slugger Troy Glaus followed with a three-run homer off Chad Durbin.

There are four long months to go, but one wonders if this two-week mega-slump points to some longer-lasting issues.

For now, the Phillies should do what little housecleaning they can. As soon as Placido Polanco is cleared to play, I'd jettison Dobbs and promote someone from Lehigh Valley to take his spot on the bench. With a couple guys on the roster capable of manning third, I'd reach for outfielder John Mayberry for his speed and pop.

Comments

[Bruce Ruffin]

There are four long months to go, but one wonders if this two-week mega-slump points to some longer-lasting issues.

Thanks for coming out an saying it, Jason. If I was to say this team "...ain't that good..." I'd get crucified. Or at very least, called a troll.

[Jack]

They'll probably pick it back up and be fine. But it does point to some larger issues. The main one that sticks out to me is age/health. Guys are beaten up--Rollins, Polanco, Lidge--and Raul just looks old. Those guys are all 31 or older.

I hate to keep harping on this point, but Amaro's obsession with signing guys who are in their 30's is going to come back and bite this team. I hope it's not already doing so.

[EastFallowfield]

I'm just thankful JW doesn't feel the need to make up clever spellings like "pheeble" here.

[Bob]

Several factors come to mind.

The bench has been pretty horrific with the notable exceptions of Valdez and Castro. They are not Rollins or Polanco caliber, certainly; but as bench players, in my book these guys have come in and done their jobs as well as can be reasonable expected.

I've got to think the bats will come back. But I do wonder if it is possible that we will see one of those years in which several key players have "non career" years at the same time. For instance, we look to Chase to bat in the .290-.300 range, bat in about 100 runs, hit about 30 HR, and provide GG caliber fielding. Who knows, this could be the year he hits .275, bats in 80, and hits 24 HR. Not out of the range, and not a bad year for most players, but if you have several key players have "down" years, it could be the difference.

The injuries have taken a toll over time.

Karma, the luck of the draw, whatever you want to call it. In 2008, basically everything went right and the breaks pretty much went the Phils way all season and post season. 2009, not quite so much, but overall, the team overcame the obstacles in front of them. 2010? Perhaps this is the year they are beset by injuries and all the cards are stacked against them, all season. It happens.

[joe l]

Am I the only one who would like to see Ibanez use a lighter/shorter bat. Maybe it's his swing, the camera angle, etc. but it looks like his has the longest arc on the team.

They say baseball is a game of adjustments. Outside of Halladay's perfect game on Friday, the team hasn't adjusted to anything. A few stolen bases here and there, but the script has been largely unchanged in the past week.

Desperation lineups aside, it's time the starting eight (well, seven w/o Rollins) start pulling their weight.

[ozark]

How often do entire lineups slump at the same time? Do they break out at the same time? Here's hoping so.
BY the same token, the recent weeks are magnified by the lack of Rollins, Happ, and the back end of the pen. If the stars align correctly we could be in for another fun summer and autumn. If not, those mid-1940s Cardinal teams can rest in peace.
I agree. Dobbs needs to go.

[GM-Carson]

So much wrong right now all at the same time. With Rollins and Polanco missing from the 1 and 2 hole that really hurts. But Utley, Howard, Werth, and Ibanez just haven't good enough lately. They're the meat of the lineup doing nothing.

I'm with JW on the banishing of Dobbs. He's been crappy for well over a season now and his swing is worse than it has ever been before. Get rid of him and see if Mayberry can bring a little life to the pinch-hitting role.

Schneider is horrid too. Still don't understand giving multi years and millions to bad backup catcher. Any Triple-A catcher could do at least as good of job and him, and probably better.

[NEPP]

Dobbs has been terrible since the start of 2009. Injury or no injury, he's giving the team absolutely nothing. Its a good thing we have Jason Donald sitting in Lehigh ready to step in.

[Cmax]

To be fair, the phillies always seem to slump at this point during the season.

The difference is the degree to which they're slumping (so many shutouts!) and the combination of injuries (Happ, Rollins, Polanco). Give it time, we'll see how long this slump continues, and then perhaps we can make better judgements. I mean, only two weeks ago we were killing everyone.

Also, the perfect game was quite nice. Let's revel in that for a few days!

[NEPP]

10 Runs scored in our last 9 games...10 RUNS in 9 Games?!? Yeah, that's pretty historically bad production there.

[Old Phan]

This is a bad slump but let's not get too revisionist about it. Everything did not go the Phils in 2008. There were a lot of questions, slumps, and "Season.Over.s" There are 4 months to go. There are always concerns, and some legitimate ones, but This too shall pass.

[Bubba]

Doc joins the Gnome in the memorabilia section of the HoF:
The cap Roy Halladay wore during his perfect game and a ball from the game will be heading to the National Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown, a Hall spokesman said last night. They should be on display by next week.

I think there may be future HoF moments for Doc, not so much for Eric.

[Iceman]

There's a difference between what JW says regarding this pointing to longer-lasting issues (true) and one of the next posters claiming they "ain't that good." This is the same core of a two-time NL championship team. They'll probably turn it around, and they're certainly not as bad as they've looked in the past two weeks or so.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Looks like the Gnome is tearing up the Int'l League, posting a line of .210/.308 / .302 at AAA Syracuse. I'm guessing he's not moving up with Strasburg this month.

[timr]

Yeah, "this too shall pass," but when it does I do hope it takes Dobbs with him.

This team does indeed need to find a spark from somebody; I guess Mayberry is the only realistic option.

[Old Phan]

I'm concerned about Kentucky/Tennessee/Innings Eater Joe. He hasn't looked sharp since he's returned from the DL.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I think Blanton struggled out of the gate last year as well.

[Marc H]

I think that this is jet lag from having played until late October/early November in each of the last 2 seasons. Some fresh legs (like Lonnie SAmith and Ketih Moreland in 1980) might breathe some new life into what appears to me toi be a tired team.

[Bubba]

Old Phan "He hasn't looked sharp since he's returned from the DL."

Seems like a recurrent theme this year doesn't it?

[KF]

I'm waiting for evidence (a players-only meeting?) that shows that the "these-guys-are-good" ones really do get it--that they are not only in a deep slump but that they also care about it enough to change the on-field dynamic.

[NEPP]

Rube should shake things up...even if its a small trade to give us a new bench option or something as simple as picking up Pedro Martinez.

Do something...do ANYTHING to shake them up.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Starting pitching is not a problem right now although, odds are, it will go south when the bats heat back up. Blanton is struggling but, I'm optimistic that he's working himself into shape. I sort of like the idea of releasing or giving Dobbs away and bringing Mayberry up to try and jolt the team. My expectation is, though, they've hit the bottom and it's just a matter of time until they rebound. Hopefully those 4 consecutive doubles yesterday were the first signs of spring for the re-birth of hte offense.

[donc]

This team is f*#@ing boring. How is that even possible? Damndest thing I ever saw.

[phatti]

Dumping Dobbs and picking up Mayberry definitely has some appeal, but I'm not sure if it's the right move. Once you do it, you've only got one lefthander on your bench (technically two counting Schneider, but Charlie never uses a catcher as a pinch hitter unless he has no one left), and a bunch of outfielder-first basemen. Yes, Dobbs stinks right now, but I would say give him another month before cutting him. Mayberry could use more at bats in June anyway to stay sharp.

[Marc H]

1) Bring Mayberry up

2) Re-sign Pedro

3) Bring up Ransome and find somwhere to hide him (Platoon w/Ibanez??)

[Hugh Mulcahy]

phatti's may be right on keeping 2 lefties on the bench. It's not like Manuel's going to pinch hit for Howard or Utley and, he already has Francisco ot hit for Ibanez.

I agree with donc - this team is boring. It reminds me of a stretch in june '08 when the lost like ten of twelve. By the time they played Oakland at the end of that stretch, I could barely bear to watch them. As bad as it looks now, I cannot conceive of the scenario where this stretch becomes an indelible stain on the season.

[Lake Fred]

Jason, right on, about giving Dobbs to boot, just as he boots balls as a fielder.

I'm not as pessimistic about this club as you are. Complacency set it. Being in second place should be the kick in the teeth (or is it the rear?) that should get the Good Ship Manuel back on course. (The Good Ship Manuel hoists the Cholly Roger when getting ready for battle.)

[Marc H]

I don;t think that they are complacent; I think that they are inured (Rollins and Happ have been HUGE losses) and exhausted (Chase has that end of August, wet noodle look to him)

[Bubba]

Fred- Maybe a little Cole- Heidi dialogue would be a slump breaker.
What the heck- it makes as much sense as our lineup yesterday did>

[bay_area_phan]

I've never been a believer that you need 2 left-handed bats on your bench. That just limits your options too much, particularly when you have a de facto 4-man bench, as the Phillies do. I mean, Dobbs is hitting .136 against right-handers; last year, he hit just .238 against them, with a .671 OPS. So it's not like his left-handedness is providing us with some kind of distinct matchup advantage.

I have serious doubts that Mayberry is the answer, but he's certainly having a solid season at AAA. I see no harm in giving him a shot.

[Billy Mac]

From Jack: Guys are beaten up--Rollins, Polanco, Lidge--and Raul just looks old. Those guys are all 31 or older.

I noticed you didn't mention Madsen or Happ, since they don't fit your theory. Polanco's injury is from being beaned; not age related. Raul is old. Jimmy is breaking down, but in general the guys that this lineup counts on: Howard, Utley, Werth, Vic are all in their prime.

[bay_area_phan]

Finding good bench players is a little like finding good bullpen arms; there's a crapshoot element involved, in part because of the small sample sizes and in part because bench guys just aren't very good to begin with; if they were, they wouldn't be bench guys.

Guys like Brian Schneider and Ross Gload have both been capable bench players throughout their career. Both seemed like decent ideas at the time they were signed, & both may yet prove to be decent bench players. I do have to wonder, though, why Amaro always tacks on that unnecessary 2nd year for older, high-risk players like this. I suppose he did it because it provides a level of payroll certainty for 2011. But, while payroll certainty has its merits, it comes at a cost; that cost is lack of flexibility.

[Old Phan]

This team is not boring. Watching them in an extended slump is (except for that little perfect game).

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Speaking of giving extra years to older, high risk players, mlbtraderumors is already speculating on Jamie Moyer's market value next season. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/05/free-agent-stock-watch-jamie-moyer.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MlbTradeRumors+%28MLB+Trade+Rumors%29

Personally, I have to believe his wife will pressure him to finally retire. I don't see him just quitting.

[Old Phan]

Still early, but that contract to Jamie that many complained about looks pretty good right now.

[curt]

I see we're spending the day picking at poor old Dobbs, as if he's the reason we've only scored about 4 meaningful runs in 10 days. The names on this extraordinary fail are: Utley-Howard-Werth. Even those 3 runs we tacked on yesterday were no thanks to any of these guys.

[thephaithful]

injuries, old ppl, poor bench, blah blah blah:

Last 10 games:

Utley: .162/.244/.216
Howard: .176/.300/.265
Werth: .161/.188/.323

Sadly, if i eliminated the Boston W, those numbers would be much lower.

[Cipper]

Just stepped outside for lunch... it's all hot and sticky out there... smells like hittin' season....

[clout]

Hugh: Still washed up, huh?

[Rex]

Hugh, Keep in mind Jamie is going to have probably between 270-275 wins at the end of the season. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility to get to 300. I mean I wouldn't bank on it because at his age who knows, but I could definitely see him hanging on if he thinks he has anything left.

[clout]

Not to label my good friend Jack's argument that the Phillies are too old as silly, but aren't Troy Glaus, Chipper Jones, Matt Diaz, Tim Hudson, Derek Lowe, Kawakami and their entire bullpen in their 30s? Do the Phils have more players over 30 than other teams?

[Jack]

Yeah, a lineup with no Rollins and Polanco, and Utley-Howard-Werth all mired in deep slumps at the same time, is not much of a lineup at all.

Billy Mac: You're right, I didn't mention Madson and Happ, but they're hurt too. Doesn't help. You say Polanco's injury isn't age related, but we have no idea. It's certainly possible a 25-year old elbow would recover quicker and better than a 34-year old one, no?

My overall point is just to get used to nagging injuries and declining players. It's going to happen over the next couple years with the Phillies, because all of their guys are now in their 30's, and Amaro seems to be intent on adding more. It's possible and maybe even probable that we've already seen the best of even the guys you mention as in their primes--Utley, Howard, Werth, Victorino.

[clout]

curt, thephaithful: Utley and Werth are beyond criticism on this blog, so basically what you're saying is that we should blame Howard.

Where's Jack?

[curt]

Couple of ways to look at Geezer's contract. If not for the second year, he probably wouldn't be here this year because he lost his job last year. On the other hand, if not for the 2nd year, the money would have presumably been available to pay Lee's salary this year.

[Jack]

Clout: The Phillies have the oldest average age in baseball, at 32.0. If you took out Moyer, that probably comes down slightly, but as they are a full year older than the next closest team (Boston), they still would likely be the oldest team in baseball.

Atlanta is 10th, with an average age of 29.5.

[Jack]

Clout: Utley, Werth and Howard all deserve "blame" right now (as much as you can blame players for being in a slump, which is sort of stupid). They are all not hitting.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

curt/thefaithful: Do you think Amaro will jettison Utley/Howard/Werth?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Yes, still washed up. Do we owe royalties if we use that phrase? I've enjoyed watching him this year although, his last outing, he was getting hit harder than his final line would suggest.

I suspect Moyer, given the choice, would keep playing until he's 50. I just wonder with his wife following him around this year if at least one of them has resolved that this will be the last year of this life for them.

[clout]

Hugh: I sort of think he should keep pitching as long as he can get guys out, but that puts me in an extreme minority here.

[Jack]

Also, to be clear, I'm not making an argument that there is an inverse correlation between age and winning (it's not like the younger you get, the better the team is, automatically).

My point was simply that, insofar as the Phillies are struggling and nagging injuries are taking their toll, age may be a factor there. And that given Amaro's moves, it's likely to be a problem (if it is one) that gets worse over the next couple of years, not better.

[thephaithful]

Ryan Howard and Tiger Woods:

Years ago, Tiger became one of the best golfers and dominated all master tournies and the whole tour. After all of that success, Tiger changed coaches and got a new swing instructor to improve his stroke for the longrun of his career, knowing that his current swing would be hard to maintain over the course of his career. There was a period of time (although pretty short) where Tiger struggled with his new swing and did not match the success he earlier saw, but once he got comfortable with the new and improved swing he quickly was better than before and dominated the tour even moreso.

That is my take with Ryan Howard right now. I think the adjustments he is making at the plate is a GOOD thing and will ultimately make him a better player over the course of his career. Although he is struggling with it so far(lo power, no walks), I think he is changing himself for the better over the long haul. If he can get comfortable with hitting for average and making more contact, and thnen combine that with his usual power approach, we could see a new and improved Howard for years to come.

[Chris in VT]

Replace Ibanez with Dom Brown and Moyer with Happ (just to speculate on what the team could look like next year) and the average age comes down quite a bit. Most of the important players are still in their primes, albeit the downside of said primes.

I don't think that's what we're seeing right now...The whole lineup just seems to have "lost it" at the same time, which is bizarre and kind of defies logic...

[donc]

This team is not boring. Watching them in an extended slump is (except for that little perfect game).

Hence my rhetorical question, How is that even possible? They are the anithesis of boring 99% of the time. It amazes me to see virtually any undeniable statement refuted on here.

[clout]

Jack: That average age is also dragged down by Castro and Contreras (both 38).

Probably a better test would be the average age of the 8 everyday players.

[Bubba]

I think Jamie could pitch past 50 if he wanted to go to the bull pen , but that would make the 300 wins even less probable.

After watching him go down with the injury at the end of last year I was really amazaed he has come back to pitch pretty well so far this year.
The long season has to be pretty wearing at his age , hope he holds up .

Somewhat related question- any Happ news?

[timr]

I like thephaitful's post and really hope it turns out to be true.

I was always okay with the old high K, huge power version of Howard, but maybe this version will turn out to be able to hit some homers soon as well.

[thephaithful]

bbeard: obviously im not suggesting we get rid of those players, move them in the lineup, bench them, etc.

just trying to make the point that no matter how injured our supporting cast is, no matter how old they are becoming, or how bad our bench players look - this team will play losing baseball the majroity of the time that those three players perform as they have been.

clout
bap
utley
howard
werth
nepp
jack
sophist

even that lineup should get you about 3 runs per game.

[NEPP]

How much of Moyer's success is stemming from his unusually low BABIP of .242 so far?

I'm not calling it a fluke but that number will normalize at some point and he won't look quite as good.

[NEPP]

Is clout really a good leadoff guy though? He's not known for his speed.

[Meyer]

Just when I losing faith in BL'er the answer appears.

[Willard Preacher]

Remember when the Mets went through almost the exact same thing (injuries, the whole team slumping at the same time, etc.) and they lost their playoff spot because of the timing?

Let's just say, I'm glad to get through the swoon early in the season. This team is incredibly talented. While it's extremely unlikely (I'd defer to Sophist to get me any odds or likelihood), it appears that basically then entire offense is slumping at the same time. That said, watch out as a few of these guys bust out of their slumps. Runs will again be scored in bunches. They are who they are.

Dobbs has to be concerned, if for no other reason than the fact that Cholly opted for Castro for the Perfecto game. He's clearly losing any stranglehold he had (if he had one) on the backup 3B job. Might be time to move on.

[curt]

One thing's sure: Geezer's aging reflexes barely saved his life on that Coghlan line drive to start the game. Then he immediately lobbed a strike to the next hitter. I would have been cowering in the dugout for an hour after surviving that one.

[Old Phan]

How is Sophist's cutter?

[gobaystars]

Here is one huge factor, the big grey elephant in the room, AGE! These guys are old and getting older. Ibanez, Polanco, Moyer, even so far stellar Contreras, same for the bench.
For all the benefits of having veterans who have been through it before, which I do buy into, there are massive drawbacks. Namely they breakdown. The core is still in it's prime but almost all of the complimentary players are fading.
This is a problem that Ruben has cuased. Sure Charlie doesn't like to play young guys, but Ruben doesn't like to sign anyone under thirty.
That said, I firmly believe that this team rights it's ship and wins the division fairly easily. They have bottomed out at 1/2 a game back. They will get healthy and climb back up.

[bay_area_phan]

Using the 8 everyday players listed on Yahoo!'s depth chart:

Glaus 33
Prado 26
Escobar 27
Jones 38
Heyward 20
McLouth 28
Cabrera 25
McCann 26

Howard 30
Utley 31
Rollins 31
Polanco 34
Ibanez 38
Vic 29
Werth 31
Ruiz 31

Add up the total ages of both teams, and divide by 8, and the average age of the Phillies' lineup (31.875) is exactly 4 years older than the Braves' (27.875).

[curt]

In short, the Bravos are in the prime age sweet spot, and we're slightly over the hill.

[Old Phan]

All of a sudden, the Phillies got very old.
Their collective age didn't seem to matter a month ago.
I worry about that more in October than I do in June.

[Willard Preacher]

Sounds like finding a home for Ibanez and bringing up Brown is a recipe for success then. Done and done.

[bay_area_phan]

And, just to be clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with having an older lineup. Save for perhaps Ibanez, most of the Phillies' starting 8 still seem to be in their prime. And it's not like there's a huge supply of available 25-year olds who would be upgrades over the likes of Rollins, Utley, Howard, Werth or Ruiz.

But with an older lineup comes some risks. Obviously, there's the risk of injury. Another is simply the risk that the guy will start losing it. Some players can remain productive into their late 30s, but many lose it in their early 30s. Except for Vic, the Phillies' entire lineup is comprised of guys who are in their 30s. The odds that all of them will remain productive players for the next season or two are fairly remote.

Then again, the team is built to win now. This might just be a risk they have to take. But the risk is clearly there.

[ozark]

Don't include starting rotation in the age argument, especially if Pedro returns.

[Meyer]

I also feel older today. It could be the long weekend or the AARP mail.

[curt]

Old man Ibanez is the only regular playing at barely satisfactory level (his .783 ops over past 2 weeks blows away everybody else). Like Valdez and Castro, he's lucky he learned to hit in other organizations, so he doesn't miss Mick as much as everyone else.

Still the daily calls for his replacement continue.

[holy mackerel]

the Phillies are older than many of the other teams in our division ( braves,marlins, wash)-- and since the Phillies decimated the farm system acquiring 2 stud pitchers ( kept only 1), we really have very little talent in the AA or AAA levels.

also - I agree with Curt re: Cliff..& the relationship between his salary and Ole Man River's

[clout]

BAP: Let us analyze this sweeping statement:
"The odds that all of them will remain productive players for the next season or two are fairly remote."

Only 2 members of the lineup are older than 31. How many everyday players aged 31 are unable to remain productive for the next two seasons?

I think the odds of Ibanez remaining productive two years hence are questionable, but I'm not sure I'd call them remote. And the odds of Rollins, Howard, Utley et al remaining productive 2 years from now are quite good.

[holy mackerel]

Last thing Washington, Atlanta and I believe the Marlins have a better stocked farm system than Philadelphia, and will shortly bringing their #1 prospect to majors (Or already have in Atlanta's situation)

Yet the Phillies are still playing the arb timing game and keeping Brown and Matheison on the farm>when they are needed on the major league level

[Willard Preacher]

curt, I was being very tongue in cheek. I don't subscribe to age being an inhibitor, or there being some magical "average age" that a team will perform its best at. I was actually trying to show how silly an argument it would be to say "let's jettison Ibanez in favor of a much younger player."

[clout]

Holy: So the reason the Phillies traded Lee was because of Moyer's contract?

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I feel old ever since someone suggested on here yesterday that people under 70 shouldn't be expected to know the date of D-Day. Since that's the date of Rollins' projected return, I'm hopeful that it corresponds with a change in current trends for the Phils' offense.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I don't think mathieson is an arbitration issue, it's a "let's see if he can not have to get a 3rd TJ surgery" issue.

I think he is demonstrating that he can pitch for a certain amount of time w/out getting hurt, but at this point, who do they move to bring him up-Herndon, who they'll have to give back to LAA? Let's see if Lidge can stay healthy/effective, then decide on Mathieson.

A Brown call up would be interesting, but I don't see it happening. I think they feel he needs more time. Mayberry is more likely.

[Old Phan]

Sorry, I don't buy the correlation between Young Jamie's contract and not signing Lee.

[Old Phan]

I feel much older now than the last time I posted.

[curt]

Willard - Understood. I'm fond of tongue in cheek myself (as in the reference to Mick), and was actually referring to posts further up.

[jr]

Would you call up this guy?
Player G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI TB BB SO SB CS OBP SLG AVG OPS E
17 51 9 18 7 0 4 13 37 6 7 1 0 .431 .725 .353 1.157 1 Looks like he could PH and he's on the farm.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Looks like he has an OBP of 1.

[holy mackerel]

OK then, let's say it was a money issue.

If I recall they did not have the $$ to pay Doc either & asked Toronto to help subsidize the 2010 salary - which cost them an additional prospect.

Well, if they did not have to pay Jamie 9million this year, a) we could have used that money to pay Doc ourselves or kept Cliff here for 2010, and receive 2 draft choices when he walks at the end of 2010.

There were obviously other factors in that trade, but the farm system restock reason does not totally add up.

(BTW - based on the Seattle blogs I read at the time of the trade, I think many Seattle fans were glad to see Phillippe Aumont go to Philly)

Even Monty said that when Philadelphia acquired Doc, they immediately traded Cliff because they did not want the Philadelphia fans to get too comfortable w/ having both Cy Young pitchers on their staff.

[Bubba]

If this slump has anything to do with Billmeyer why don't the Phils slump every year in every bullpen that doesn't have bull pens with good sight lines to the catcher's signs?

It's obviously due to the distraction of JW telling BeerLeaguers that big changes are coming and not saying what they are.

Only possible reason.

[seattlephan]

the team definitely needs a shakeup now and JW is totally right about Dobbs. We have to get rid of him asap -- he just flat out sucks. Call up Mayberry and maybe Mathieson? I'd rather see what we have with Mathieson than hold on to Herndon just because he is a RuleV experiment

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Jeezus, more of the Lee stuff.

[progress fanatic]

Anyone else terrified of the Phils sched in June?

2 vs. ATL (29-22)
4 vs. SD (31-20)
3 vs. FLA (26-26)
3 vs. BOS (29-23)
3 vs. NYY (31-20)
3 vs. MIN (31-20)
3 vs. CLE (18-31)
3 vs. TOR (31-22)
3 vs. CIN (30-22)

That's a .686 opponent's winning percentage, folks.

[jerry]

How long is Howard's slump vs. lefties going to last? Oh, right. That's not a slump.

[holy mackerel]

I really just to talk about the age of thr - phillies currently and comparing them to the other teams in their division as well as the health of the Minor league system,

as far as Lee goes, I just mentioned I agreed w/ curt on his comment at 1:04 pm
"on the other hand, if not for the 2nd year, the money would have presumably been available to pay Lee's salary this year."

I didn't want to start a "Lee for all"

[Jim in NC]

It seems to me in 2007 the team went through a Dead Stretch, and things seemed to turn around when Bourn was brought up. He really didn't do much except pinch run and play defense, but his speed was enough to be disruptive. Could Dom Brown provide the same type of spark? Is there someone else?

[Bubba]

Holy Mac- If the Phillies didn't have Blanton's , Happ. Hamels, Lidge, Madson ,etc, etc contracts they would have had the money to keep Lee.

Money earmarked for Moyer is no different than any other money already committed.

Blanton's money was committed closest in time to the Doc& Lee deals . What makes Jamie's contract a logical target. It was money spent long before Lee was dealt.

[holy mackerel]

oops: that s/read "free for all"

[progress fanatic]

whoops, I meant .536. With CLE taken out it's .557.

[DH Phils]

I would argue that the relationship between age and injury is nonlinear (although I'd be interested to see if any kind of research has been done on this). Average age is a pretty poor way to measure a team's (or lineup's) "oldness" because players in their early 30s probably get hurt at about the same rate as players in their 20s, with the injury rates rising after age 33-34 or so.

The Braves' lineup has a higher average age because they have several young players (Heyward at 20, Cabrera at 25, McCann and Prado at 26) that bring their average down, while the Phillies don't have a starter under 29. I don't think the injury risk for these players is any less than the injury risk for the 29-31 year old Phillies core. Both lineups have two players where age could be a concern - Polanco and Ibanez for the Phillies, Glaus and Jones for the Braves.

[The Truth Injection]

Jack: The guy who is 45 and on our starting roster may drop our average age some if he wasn't there? Gee, you think- really going out on a limb there I see.

[holy mackerel]

Bubba- See reply in []

"Holy Mac- If the Phillies didn't have Blanton's , Happ. Hamels, Lidge, Madson ,etc, etc contracts they would have had the money to keep Lee." - [OK I get the point, but all of the players you named: that's just plain ole silly.]

"Money earmarked for Moyer is no different than any other money already committed." _ [Moyer threw a tantrum after the 2008 W/S- unless Rube gave him a second year on his new contract - and threatened to leave Philadelphia.]

Blanton's money was committed closest in time to the Doc& Lee deals . What makes Jamie's contract a logical target. It was money spent long before Lee was dealt.

[I guess I am saying I would rather spent the $$ spent on Cliff then Jamie --At this point that horse has been traded, beaten, dead, and long gone- I don't want to start a new Cliff Lee blog at this moment]

[bay_area_phan]

"And the odds of Rollins, Howard, Utley et al remaining productive 2 years from now are quite good."

I hope you're right about that, although I don't know how you can confidently predict what a player's career arc will be. It's hardly uncommon for players to start declining or start having recurring health problems in their early 30s. The Phillies have 7 guys in their lineup over 30 & one who will turn 30 in November. A reasonable guess is that some of these guys will follow the Raul Ibanez arc and remain very productive to a late age, while some will follow the Carlos Guillen/Edgar Renteria arc and start to decline at a considerably earlier age.

[UD Hens]

Bring up Dom Brown now (I usually post this about once a week). DB=instant spark!