Lee, bullpen unravel at end in loss to Reds

Cliff Lee tossed six spectacular innings before yielding two runs in the seventh, and after the Phillies rallied back to tie it, the Reds reclaimed the lead with another two runs off the 'pen in the eighth en route to a 4-2 decision.

The Phillies failed to get their offense going yet again, Monday night being dazzled by Bronson Arroyo, who threw seven shutout innings before allowing two runs in the eighth. Chase Utley, not starting for the first time in 2013, entered as a pinch hitter for Lee and belted a two-out, two-run homer to tie the game, 2-2.

Lee faced just two batters over the minimum before the seventh inning, when Joey Votta and Brandon Phillips led off with back-to-back hits. Votto would score on a wild pitch, and after Jay Bruce drew a walk — the first given up by Lee all season — Todd Frazier plated Phillips on a sacrifice fly.

Entering a 2-2 ballgame in the eighth, Jeremy Horst recorded just one out (on a sacrifice) and left the bases loaded for Mike Adams, who proceeded to give up a two-run single to Phillips, the first batter he faced.

Adams limited the damage to two runs, but it would not matter. Aroldis Chapman needed just 14 pitches to retire the Phillies in order in the ninth, picking up his first save since April 7.

In the field, Ben Revere — sporting a special "Pray for Boston" message taped to his glove — made one of the best catches you'll ever see to rob Frazier of an extra-base hit. Bruce, who had been on first, was easily doubled off on the play.

Comments

[NEPP]

***"Let's bring Brown up now, because he certainly can't be any worse than what we've got in the outfield in the meantime" sounds eerily similar.
***

And Brown worked out perfectly. That's why he's been a big part of our OF for the past 3 seasons now.

[jbird]

Redburb: and they haven't done anything either. I think it's great that we got something good in return, I'm not argueing that we haven't gotten any value out of our acquisitions, but rather my point remains that the Phillies farm system hasn't produced a starter quality bat in about 7 years. And now that I'm looking at the pitching, not much has been produced there in almost as long either. I get that tons of prospects flame out, nature of the beast, but you'd think someone, anyone, would have broken through since 2006 or 2007. If you can name someone, let me know. Right now I'm coming up with Bastardo and that's about it. Maybe that's just the team's luck regressing to the mean after a tremendous amount of talent hit the bigs 2003-2007.

[awh]

Joe D, Chooch returning will have an impact, not only defensively, but by adding another threat to the lineup. Now, I know statheads don't agree with this, but sometimes (cliché alert) the "whole is greater than the sum of the parts".

Right now, opposing teams don't need to worry about the Phillies' catchers at the plate, and can game plan around that. That is, his absence gives them the luxury of possibly pitching around (or planning to) other bats in his absence.

Chooch's return will change that. I just hope Charlie doesn't bat him 8th.

Here's my lineup when Chooch returns:

Revere
Utley
Chooch
Howard
MYoung
JRoll
Brown
NixBerry/DYoung

Feel free to flip Chooch and MYoung if you like.

[Phillibuster]

jbird: You're again ignoring the fact that nobody knows when a prospect will pan out. That's why they're purely prospective.

However, other teams have liked our arms well enough to give us some of the best MLB-level talent around (the 4 RedBurb pointed out, among others) in exchange for their contracts. That, plus the guys we do still have (including Bastardo, Stutes {maybe?}, Pettibone...).

[ColonelTom]

As I've been saying since about 10 minutes after we got him, batting Revere leadoff is clinically insane. Average plate appearances for each spot in the batting order:

1st - 763
2nd - 746
3rd - 728
4th - 711
5th - 696
6th - 681
7th - 662
8th - 643
9th - 622

Revere's clearly the weakest hitter - by a wide margin - in the lineup once Chooch returns. There's no reason on God's green earth to give him an extra 140 plate appearances just because he's fast.

[awh]

I posted the last lineup because I know Charlie will NEVER consider this, which I would definitely like to see:

Rollins
Utley
MYoung/Chooch
Howard
MYoung/Chooch
Brown
Nixberry
P
Revere

[Joe D]

I'm on board with that lineup, awh.

[Sophist]

Didn't we just have this prospect debate a few weeks ago? If you look at, say, BA's top 100 prospect lists from the last few years, the Phils have top 10 results when it comes to drafting. Those players, unfortunately, are in other systems now, or -- as often happens -- haven't panned out.

You could say that Gose, Singleton, D'Arnaud haven't proved anything yet. And that's true. But no one would be worried about the state of the farm if those three guys were in it. Ruf-like, there'd be posters hollering for their place on the 25-man.

[Phillibuster]

awh: So you'd keep Revere at leadoff?

[awh]

"Philibuster: also, have the Phillies gotten good returns on their pitchers?"

jbird, yes, Ben Revere.

[awh]

"He's certainly not their biggest weakness but he is the wrong manager for this team last year & this year."

MG, how many years in a row has this been your mantra?

[RedBurb]

jbird - The fact that they were dealt for MLB level talent (TOP talent at that) has to be taken into the equation regardless if the player has panned out in the MLB. Don't you think?

[NEPP]

@Redblurb: Yes, yes it does. The purpose of the farm system is to provide talent to the 25 man...trades for proven players is just one way of accomplishing it.

[Jack]

TTI: "All well and good but the Phillies clearly have a type they look for and whether you are picking high or going over slot won't change that unless they want it too."

I don't think that's true anymore, if it ever was. What "type" are you referring to? If you think they generally prefer high school players to college players, that's true. I grant that. Otherwise, what do Jesse Biddle, Kelly Dugan, Larry Greene, and Shane Watson have in common?

Watson is probably the best "athlete" of that group, and he's a pitcher. Greene is not what anyone would call a "toolsy" guy--he has power, and that's it. Biddle is about as polished a lefty starter you'll find from the high school ranks. Dugan I guess was a raw toolsy guy, but I'd be willing to bet he wasn't exactly what you had in mind when you consider what "type" the Phils like to draft.

Again, I think it's ridiculous to assume there's some perfectly polished college player with developed skills waiting to be taken at the 35th pick. The only time that's happened recently is when the Phils took Greene over Jackie Bradley Jr., and that was a pretty obvious mistake. Of course, Bradley is a much better "athlete" than Larry Greene, so that sort of cuts against your point.

[NEPP]

Greene is a lazy SOB who has arrived at ST massively out of shape for two years running. Looks like a serious mistake to draft him at this point.

Its Brody Colvin all over again.

[Sophist]

I think to talk about the end-game of drafting/player development as producing an "everyday MLB player" is one-dimensional. Is the Phils player development among the best in baseball? No, it's a step below. But it's short-sighted to say they are not good because there isn't a Freddie Freeman on the roster.

In a counter-factual world, the Phils don't extend Howard and don't trade Singleton for Pence. Then they have a top 30 prospect waiting in the wings to try his hand at 1B. The failure to have a promising young bat on the current roster isn't really one that arose because the Phils don't draft well or coach well in the SAL league. It's part of a bigger picture involving bigger picture moves -- some good and some bad. What if the Phils never trade for Doc and simply extend Lee earlier? We'd have D'Arnaud but probably not the 102-win (ultimately disappointing) season. But maybe we'd have a 93 win season and more luck in the playoffs and another WS win. Does that make the Doc trade a bad move? Does that make our player development any better or worse?

[Phillibuster]

Sophist: 100% agreed. That we haven't had a major rookie breakout recently is in no small part because we've been trading all of our would-be rookie breakouts for proven, MLB-level stars like Roy Halladay, Hunter Pence, Roy Oswalt, Cliff Lee, Brad Lidge. In some cases, they have then again been used to get further MLB-proven stars like Dickey (coming off his career year).

All in all, they've been responsible for moving 4 Cy Young award-winners, who (with the possible exception of Oswalt) were not past their primes, in the past 5 years.

[NEPP]

*** what do Jesse Biddle, Kelly Dugan, Larry Greene, and Shane Watson have in common?
***

They were all willing to sign for slot or even below slot despite being "top" picks...that's what they had in common.

[bay_area_phan]

Iceman: I was vindicated on Kratz. He was worlds better than Schneider last year. And, while I can't defend his godawful start to this year, I do think it's kind of amusing that some of the posters who are piling on him the most vociferously are the exact same posters who are screaming "SSS" about Ben Revere. I'd be willing to be that, when the season ends, Kratz will hit .240 with some decent power numbers.

[Joe D]

Kelly Dugan...lol. Is he still hanging out with Adam Sandler?

[NEPP]

***I'd be willing to be that, when the season ends, Kratz will hit .240 with some decent power numbers.***

...in AAA.

[jbird]

Redburb: Sure, I keep saying that it's great the Phillies have been able to trade for MLB talent from the farm. The Phillies have been maximizing the farm fairly well considering how little they spend. I think there are some interesting guys in our system now. I think there are a couple players we have traded away who will break through relatively soon. I'm just making the point that no one has developed into a starting player in a long, long time. I think that's hurting the team. These are not mutually exclusive ideas. I don't know why you're arguing about it. If you can name the Phillies draft pick or international signee who has been a significant contributor in the last 7 years on the big league level that I'm forgetting about, let me know.

[NEPP]

What's up with Dugan anyway? He was in Lakewood last year where he actually had a solid year but he doesnt have any ABs yet in 2013...is he injured? Why isn't he playing in Clearwater?

Also, he used to be a SH but now hits exclusively from the left side per B-R.com...oh well.

[GBrettfan]

Dubious distinction:

Matt Gelb ‏@magelb
Small sample size alert: Phillies hitters are worst in the majors against lefthanded pitching http://bit.ly/10anVjM

[Jack]

NEPP: Exactly right. It's not a "type" that the Phils draft (which, if you can't tell by my post above, I tend to suspect has a tinge of racial characterization to it) that has the farm system where it is.

As Sophist points out, it's a combination of a whole host of factors, from MLB signings and trades, to draft position, to resource allocation (read: money). This idea that the Phils are obsessed with only drafting guys like Greg Golson instead of Chase Utley, is, at best, misguided and overly simplistic.

[NEPP]

The Phillies do draft a good number of toolsy guys but they do so because those guys typically sign for lower amounts, not because they just love toolsheds.

[Joe D]

I love myself a good ol toolsy player. I love the Brandon Graham's of the baseball world.

[Sil Campusano]

Small sample size alert: Phillies hitters are worst in the majors against lefthanded pitching

I'm SHOCKED, I tell you. SHOCKED.

The thing about Kratz is that it seems like opposing teams have finally figured out how not to throw him fastballs over the plate.

[Joe D]

I was most excite about Howard's AB against Chapman last night. I knew that after a very frustrating night I'd at least be able to end it with a hearty laugh.

[GBrettfan]

The time has come for Charlie to separate Chase and Ryan with a RH hitter. We are batting zero against LHP (an obvious exaggeration for effect), so we need to do something to try and ameliorate the situation. No sense in making it any easier on the opposing team than it already is. Ryan especially just doesn't inspire any kind of anxiety for an opposing pitcher, I don't think - not judging by the way they've been going after him for a while now.

[RedBurb]

jbird - It just seems like you are limiting your argument. Just because a guy doesn't develop into something at the MLB level doesn't mean that the player has any value. I guess that's where I'm seeing a disconnect in your argument. Saying the traded players haven't developed into a full time MLB player doesn't mean that the team has been bad at drafting.

[GBrettfan]

Another dubious distinction, from Jim Salisbury this time:

Bullpen has allowed 77.8 % inherited runners to score (14 of 18). Worst % in MLB

[Joe D]

Nope sorry GBrett, it already cost Charlie a lot of money to have kinkos rerun the lineup cards with Rollins removed from the leadoff spot. His stock of lineup cards with Utley-Howard 3-4 is a big one and he must use them up.

[Jack]

Ben Revere is a pretty "toolsy" player (in that he's very fast but can't actually hit), but no one seems to mind.

[Phillibuster]

jbird: They're not mutually exclusive, but you seem to be extending the idea that none of them have developed well into a seemingly-similar point that the Phillies don't draft well or have a poor drafting strategy.

In part, that's because you started out the conversation with comments like:

Phillies have pinched pennies when it comes to amateur talent both foreign and domestic for years now. Certainly the team has opened the purse strings on the MLB level, thank goodness, but they have definitely attempted to save a couple dollars on the young kids, and it shows.

and

In concert with the idea that the offense is missing a centerpiece bat, the farm system has not produced a competent everyday player since the golden quartet of Howard, Utley, Chooch, and Rollins made it to the show.

However, if by "produced" you mean that it hasn't resulted in us having one on the MLB roster, then that's untrue. The players from the farm didn't end up being the bat, but they were responsible for putting everyday pieces in the lineup. That the players, once traded, haven't cracked MLB lineups yet is irrelevant to the utility these prospects provided to the Phillies - and just because they didn't work out doesn't seem to have dampened the enthusiasm our subsequent trade partners have had for them.

[NEPP]

***Bullpen has allowed 77.8 % inherited runners to score (14 of 18). Worst % in MLB***

Good to see Rube solved that issue in the off-season.

[Joe D]

This is seriously just like last year. I remember thinking after each game "Jesus this team is terrible how are they even 5-6, 14-15, 18-19". Because if you looked at everything with the eye test of watching each and every game they should have been much worse. And here we stand again...a team hovering around .500 that for all intents and purposes should be much worse. Thank god for the Marlins huh?

[bay_area_phan]

"Small sample size alert: Phillies hitters are worst in the majors against lefthanded pitching."

It may be a SSS but I don't think it's likely to change much. They had the 26th best OPS against LHP last year. Since then, they've lost Vic (who killed LHP) & Pence (another RH bat). And who did they replace them with? Two more LH hitters. Plus we'll presumably have more ABs from Utley & Howard this year, which is obviously a good thing on balance but is a bad thing for our overall numbers against LHP.

RAJ has never paid much attention to lefty-righty stuff. That wasn't a big deal back when Utley and Ibanez hit LHP just as well as RHP. But now that Utley is just as bad as Howard against LHP, it's a huge issue. Yet another reason to have gone after a guy like Nick Swisher in the off-season.

[Joe D]

bap, how can you expect Amaro to value situational hitting and matchups? The guy doesn't even care about people getting on base.

[NEPP]

***Ben Revere is a pretty "toolsy" player (in that he's very fast but can't actually hit), but no one seems to mind. ***

He can hit (he did hit .294 last year)...he just cant hit for any power at all. He makes Juan Pierre and Mickey Morandini look like Ruth/Gehrig.

Of course, last year might have been an outlier and he really can't hit. That would suck.

[jbird]

Redburb: I didn't say that the farm system was without value. Just saying that the team hasn't produced a meaningful player in a long, long time. Couple middle relievers, JA Happ, that's about it.

[GBrettfan]

It's like the more things change, the more they stay the same. Stuck in a loop of not maximizing our waning potential.

[NEPP]

JoeD, what the hell does getting on base have to do with scoring?

[Joe D]

NEPP, nothing at all man. Nothing at all. Clearly.

[NEPP]

***Yet another reason to have gone after a guy like Nick Swisher in the off-season.
***

Delmon Young is a former #1 pick overall...how is that not solving the problem for you?

[Sophist]

If anything, I can see the lesson from the last few years being that you shouldn't over-commit to a good run. The 102-win season was a luxury, and in some ways may be harming the Phils ability to compete these next few years. Almost justifies the Lee-Seattle trade (not in its details) in a weird way.

[DPatrone]

Say what you want phans, but after only 13 games, doesn't this team look eerily similar to last year's, even with better health?

I mean 8 runs total in the last 4 games, and they're lucky to be 2-2 in them. Cholly is still Cholly, but here again he's gotta go with what he's got. The fact the Nix was in RF and Kratz was catching shows there aren't better options available on this team, if at all. Yes, Lee "unraveled" a little but Utley pulled them back even. A new game at that point. The offense isn't getting it done. And it's not the hitting coaches, is it?

[jbird]

Pilibuster: So you don't think it's an issue (not the only issue, but A issue) that the Phillies have failed to sign amateur players who eventually become contributing big league players for nearly a decade. Interesting...

If you don't think it's necessary for a team to develop it's own players, that's fine. I would however, point you to the fact that much of the Phillies success has been a result of their home grown players. Even the recent great Yankee teams have been built around home grown players (Jeter, Rivera, Posada, Pettite, Bernie Williams).

[ColonelTom]

awh, your lineup is exactly what I had in mind. Using ZiPS (and with a little back-of-the-envelope calculation), over a full season that's probably worth about 4 wins above the Revere-batting-leadoff lineup Cholly is likely to continue running out there when Chooch returns.

[DPatrone]

BAP~ It's not just Swisher he didn't go after. It's others too. I get killed here because I keep saying it. But it's obviously true. They spent lotsa money on Hamels (rightly so), and weren't gonna spent much anywhere else. It is what it is and we're stuck with it.

[Joe D]

What I love is that Charlie Manuel is this hitting guru right? Right?! YEAH! I haven't seen him maximize anyone's potential or gotten anyone to play over their head in his tenure here. Can we count Werth? I don't really think so because he was highly regarded before he broke his wrist. So where does that leave us? With a manager who doesn't maximize potential and keeps pushing the same buttons. Anyone look out to San Francisco lately? That's a team that still doesn't have a ton of big bats and somehow they are scoring runs. Someone explain this to me.

[fumphis]

Again, the inherited runner % numbers are nothing but good news going forward. Although the bullpen is area where Charlie, as always, is actively hurting this team and will continue to do so.

[Phillibuster]

Jbird: I am saying that I don't think the fact that a Phillies draftee hasn't become an all-star to the Phillies lineup recently isn't an indicator that the Phillies draft poorly - especially not when you notice that the Phillies have had really bad draft positioning the past decade. Not even kind of bad, but really bad, and even before they started winning the division.

You seem to have two arguments here that you're (intentionally or unintentionally) connoting as two parts of a single whole, when they're not. So let's clear that up right now.

Which of the following do you agree with?

A: Phillies draft poorly.
B: Recent Phillies draftees aren't contributing regularly on MLB lineups this year.
C: The Phillies are not an elite team because they draft poorly.
D: The Phillies are not an elite team because their recent draftees aren't contributing regularly on MLB lineups this year.

[Joe D]

And to continue my point on Manuel and his hitting prowess...it took Joyner to come in here to adjust Brown's hands. Thanks for catching that Chuck.

[DPatrone]

Joe D~ SF plays better offensive fundamental baseball. The way they approach the game offensively is taylored to the type of players a they have and the ballpark they play in. Cholly still sits back and waits for the 3-run bomb. Problem is, it's not '08 or '09 anymore, and he can't manage any other way.

[ColonelTom]

Dom's slash line this year is .250/.294/.396, very close to his career MLB numbers. Small sample size, obviously, but it's far from clear that Joyner's adjustment did anything meaningful for Brown.

[Joe D]

That's exactly it DPat.

CT, I know Brown isn't setting the world on fire but it was a change that was at least visible to someone.

Seriously what does Manuel bring to this team right now? They need to start looking towards the future and you have a manager that is living in the past. It's not a formula for success. I can't believe Sandberg is still here but I'm thankful for it. I hope he can be what I have seen in him at AAA.

[ColonelTom]

Cholly still sits back and waits for the 3-run bomb. Problem is, it's not '08 or '09 anymore, and he can't manage any other way.

The Phils lead MLB with 11 SB and are tied for second with 14 attempts. They're using their speed when the fast guys get on base - the problem is they're not getting on base enough.

[Phillibuster]

Joe: The point Colonel Tom made is that there's no indication - yet - that changing his swing as actually improved Brown as a hitter.

It's great that Joyner noticed it, and I hope that it does, but if it doesn't, how was Manuel wrong in not mentioning it?

[The Truth Injection]

Jack: if you really want to try and pull racial stuff with me you can go fvck right off man because that is not conducive to any type of discussion and my thoughts have nothing to do with the color of the skin of anyone the Phillies draft. Talent is talent.

I am not imagining that the phillies have drafted a ton of guys over the years that basically carry the analysis, "Great athlete, high risk high reward type prospect who if they develop could be special." That is their type. High risk, high reward. That would be fine if they did it occasionally but they do it a lot. Say what you want about Biddle and being a guy who would sign for slot but the book on him has not really changed all that much since he was drafted. He was easily able to be projected going forward. So was a guy like Singleton that they drafted when everyone pretty much agreed, "Great power and plate discipline."

[fumphis]

DPat, I'm not defending Charlie at all, but that's really a bit outdated. Last year Charlie consistently managed with a "small ball" approach--using position players to sacrifice, etc. Now the details of his execution happened to be a terrible way to manage, but he wasn't at all waiting for the 3-run bomb. He absolutely recognized last year that he didn't have that lineup anymore and tried to adjust accordingly.

[MG]

This why the Phils have a 6-7 record:

4.71 ERA (12th in the NL for starters)

They have invested a ton of resources there and the highest 3 paid guys on the team are all starters this year (Lee, Halladay, Hamels who is t-3rd with Howard at $20M).

[Joe D]

Philli, I get the point CT made thanks.

What I'm saying is that at least someone tried to make a change with Brown. Manuel hasn't tweaked anyone's swing in a positive manner. What the hell does he even do? Classic substitute teacher. Everyone loves the sub.

[Joe D]

Manuel recognizing he doesn't have the pieces to play long ball would be breaking up Utley and Howard. My calender says 2013 and I can pick a kid off a local sandlot to throw with his left hand and get Howard out.

[ColonelTom]

Last year Charlie consistently managed with a "small ball" approach--using position players to sacrifice, etc.

Yup. The Phils were 5th in MLB in sacrifice bunts with 72. More than half of those sacrifices were by position players.

[MG]

Phils relievers ERA is 5.03 (11th in the NL).

Still it is the starters who have laid an egg outside of Lannan and Lee. No excuse why this isn't at least an average/above average rotation withouth injury.

[Joe D]

I'm not saying Charlie should shoulder all the blame because he does have a GM that doesn't even understand valuable skills that make up a winning team but at least make the obvious changes so you can clearly expose RA Jr. as the main culprit in this flawed team.

[MG]

Cholly did try to adjust last year a bit. He did sac more and he even hit & run a bit more which he has said previously he doesn't like to do.

That's kind of lazy analysisthat the facts don't support.

[ColonelTom]

Joe, just because you can't see a change in a hitter's stance doesn't mean a manager/coach hasn't helped him in some way. When Cholly talks about hitting with the media, he often talks about approach - when to look for what pitches and where, etc. You wouldn't be able to eyeball that.

Not saying that he's the idiot savant of hitting, mind you - just that I don't think we have much to go on either way.

[Phillibuster]

Joe: You say that, and then you miss the point.

Changing a player's swing is a significant thing. There's always a risk that they'll get worse not better (or even remain about the same). In fact, if I remember right, weren't Dom's 2011 ST struggles allegedly tied to the coaches trying to get him to move his hands up? Didn't he carry a ridiculous 0-fer until he switched his hand positioning, and promptly broke his hamate bone on his first hit in forever?

Changing something for the sake of changing it - even when what you had before wasn't great - is not always a good idea.

[NEPP]

Problem: We dont have a big RH bat to split them up anyway. Sure, you could use Michael Young but any manager there will gladly risk letting Young get a hit off their LH reliever and the end result is much the same when Utley, Howard, Brown and Rollins simply cannot hit LHP.

Our lineup is simply very weak...especially against LHP.

[bay_area_phan]

DPat: But Swisher was, by far, the best fit. There were other guys, but most of them were left-handed (Hamilton, Bourn), vastly overpriced (Hamilton, Vic, Upton), or historically inconsistent (Ross).

During the off-season, many of us were puzzled as to why the Phillies seemed to at least "kick the tires" on every big-name FA outfielder except Swisher. But I think RAJ subsequently answered our question with his comment that, "I don't care about walks. I care about production." Swisher walks a lot but has never knocked in more than 100 runs. He's not RAJ's type of player.

[Joe D]

No s**t Philli, I'm not suggesting that Joyner's advice is going to catapult Brown to Cooperstown. But what you are missing is that Brown said he felt comfortable with the change. Before when they were adjusting his hands all over the place he met those changes with resistance and outwardly said he wasn't comfortable with them.

[MG]

For all of the hype about Joyner and Brown:

.250/.294/.396 with 2 HR and 0 SBs

Brown has gotten out to a slow start and if he isn't going to hit (and hit for power) he isn't a good enough player to start everyday in LF/RF.

Phils desperately need him to be a guy who produces this year.

[Joe D]

CT, I get that Charlie is big on approach. The approach really doesn't seem to have changed though huh? Maybe his message has gone stale? Possibly? I don't think he will make it through the year anyway so it's probably not even worth getting worked up about. I don't see this team straying far from where they stand right now. And where they are right now is not good enough.

[Joe D]

Well this could just be the answer we finally need to get on Brown. That he really probably is just a flop. At least we can get some closure on that front.

[bay_area_phan]

Of one thing I'm sure: even with a lineup that lacks power, using more sacrifice bunts is NOT conducive to generating more runs.

[Phillibuster]

Joe: Nobody said you were claiming that, Joe, but you're using hindsight to suggest that Manuel screwed up by not having Brown change his stance.

In fact, they'd tried to get him to change his stance in the past, and it didn't work. When he returned to his "natural" stance, he returned to the solidly-solid (not great) hitter that he'd been before - but with a major hole in his swing (that he'd also had before).

Joyner was able to help him out. Wonderful! But just because Manuel didn't do it doesn't mean he's a moron for not doing it. Sometimes, a guy just has an eye that helps with a particular hitter - that's why so many teams now have multiple batting coaches.

[MG]

Joe D - Its 2 weeks. Brown deserves a full year to start out there espeically given the lack of other options. If he is a .250 hitter who doesn't SLG above .400, he isn't a regular.

Brown just isn't good defensively though & I have little faith he will ever improve that much. Lousy at reading the ball off the bat and takes his share of circuitous routes to the ball.

[Phillibuster]

Joe: The problem is that you're starting with your conclusion ("Charlie Manuel is a terrible manager and will rarely - if ever - do anything right"), and jamming facts in there to try to support it ("Joyner showed up and in less than a month was able to change Brown's stance to a way that he claims feels natural and he did well in ST with").

Unfortunately, the change being positive hasn't been borne out in regular season play, and you're completely ignoring prior attempts at doing the same thing that not only failed, but failed spectacularly.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that Manuel's the Bodhisattva of hitting, but your observations have a lot of bias built in towards the diametric opposite, which is also unlikely to be true.

[Joe D]

Philli, I don't even know if you know what you are arguing. I said above that yes they did try to change Brown's stance before and HE SAID HE WASN'T COMFORTABLE WITH IT. The change Joyner suggested was one that resonated with Brown and one he embraced.

THANK YOU FOR PLAYING.

[ColonelTom]

Joe, the #1 problem is a lack of offensive talent, not anything Cholly is telling or not telling the hitters. Utley's the only guy in their current lineup that scares anybody.

I agree that Cholly is gone if this team continues on its current path. I doubt the same guys will suddenly starting hitting with a new manager, though.

[Joe D]

MG, I'm not writing Brown off but we should at least get a definitive answer on him this year. I still think his at bats are pretty good. He works the count well. He just hasn't really driven the ball well. I don't really understand why that is happening.

[Joe D]

CT, that remains to be seen. There is something to be said about having a manager that can get the most out of a player's potential. I just don't see Manuel as a maximizer of talent. That's never been his forte. He is simply a guy that is well liked in the clubhouse and a veteran lover. This team isn't able to get by on that approach anymore. Times change.

[MG]

Horst (worst guy in the pen)

- Fastball velocity is down consistently 2-3 MPH this year so far. He at 88-89 vs 90-91 last year

- Slider is also 1-2 MPH slower and doesn't have the same movement horizontally or vertically.

Analyst will mindlessly parrot that he was 'due for regression' and that might have been true but Horst simply doesn't have anywhere near the same stuff he did last Sept.

[fumphis]

BAP, I'm absolutely terrified by the thought that you might be right about Swisher. I always thought he was the obvious FA choice and would have really helped the team, and assumed RAJ just prioritized the draft pick over him, which was fine. But looking at his stats, you can absolutely see how a moronic "traditionalist" might actually come away thinking he's a mediocre player. Career BA of .256 (OBP .361!), season RBI totals in the mid-80s, good but not outstanding HR numbers, K rate hovering above 20%. Incredibly depressing to think RAJ might have passed him over because he doesn't fit his circa-1980 criteria for evaluating a guy.

[ColonelTom]

Of one thing I'm sure: even with a lineup that lacks power, using more sacrifice bunts is NOT conducive to generating more runs.

A thousand times yes, especially when you're talking about using position players to sacrifice. Many of those sacrifices in 2012 were by guys who are very good contact hitters and run well enough to stay out of double plays (Pierre 17, Victorino 5). Those were wasted outs.

[Joe D]

I think it is equal parts Ruben not liking Swisher's skill-set and equal parts the front office telling him to prepare for a drought and tighten up the purse strings.

[Joe D]

Pierre bunted almost every single time he was up with a man on.

[bay_area_phan]

"I still think his at bats are pretty good. He works the count well. He just hasn't really driven the ball well."

We're now 543 PAs into Domonic Brown's major league career and the issue you're observing now has been the issue since Day 1: he has a good plate approach and doesn't swing at many bad pitches, but he makes a ton of weak contact and rarely drives the ball.

[NEPP]

Considering our infield defense, I dont really blame him for doing that over the weekend.

[Joe D]

So far this season Swisher is hitting .270. Nevermind his .426 OBP. I don't even know why they keep that stat.

[Joe D]

NEPP, I was referring to 2012 Juan Pierre.

bap, yeah I know. That's the troubling part. This has been no progression in the power department with Brown.

[Jeff Rezer]

I was at the game (Philly native living in Cincy) and what seemed to stand out to me was the number of times Freddy Galvis ALMOST stopped a groundball through the hole. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I think if Chase was playing last night, one of those ground balls might not have skidded through. Not the reason they lost -- but just an observation... goes to show you how much they really missed him last night, PH aside...

[Joe D]

But Jeff, Galvis is fast. Don't you know that? That's why he hits 2nd when he plays.

[ColonelTom]

Don't even get me started on Galvis in the #2 spot. I'm defending Cholly on his knowledge of hitting, but if you want exhibit A on why Cholly should go (and soon), look at the lineup card.

[RedBurb]

You can't complain about the team not developing talent and then turn around and complain that they didn't sign a free agent who was offered a qualifying offer. Swisher would've cost the first round pick and the slot money assigned with it.

Swisher isn't going to be the guy that would've put the team over the top. Just think if the team signed Swisher and then tanked. Now you are looking at a 5 year committment with Swisher and no first round pick this year. Not an ideal situation going into 2014. At least if the team tanks this year, they can trade some players for some minor league depth AND have that first round pick.

[Joe D]

Red, that's why I said I think the ownership also threw up the stop sign on Swisher.

[RedBurb]

And MG is 100% correct by saying that pitching has been the reason the Phillies are 1 game under .500 so far. Pitching will sink or swim this team this year.

The way some are acting on here you would think that the season is over already through 13 games. You guys really need to lighten up.

[RedBurb]

Joe, that's not tightening up the purse though.