Get ready for those Greg Maddux stories

Five years ago today, the Phillies beat the Dodgers in Game 5 of the NLCS to advance to the World Series for the first time since 1993. It was a momentus day as evidenced by the photo I snapped on the field after the game.

Few people remember that Geoff Jenkins (pictured with Ryan Howard) was late to the ballpark that day because his wife was giving birth to a son in a hospital near Dodger Stadium in Pasadena. It's the same hospital that both CSN's Leslie Gudel and Chase Utley were born in.

But we digress ...

Game 5 of the 2008 NLCS also marked the end of Greg Maddux's career. Pitching the fourth and fifth innings in relief for starter Chad Billingsley and Chan Ho Park, Maddux was charged with two unearned runs, two hits, a walk and three strikeouts in closing out a career that surely will get him elected to the Hall of Fame this winter. 

When Maddux is inducted in Cooperstown next summer, it might be a good idea to listen closely. That's because there are sure to be some wild and crazy stories about one of the greatest pitchers ever to play the game.

Greg Maddux?

Oh yes, everyone has a Greg Maddux story. Better yet, everyone has a Greg Maddux story that involves loud, bawdy laughter with punch lines that are often not repeatable in mixed company or fit for print.

The guy has the most interesting and warped sense of humor in the game, which is enough to make him an all-time favorite in this little corner of the world wide web. More importantly, Maddux is also known as the game’s best ambassadors.

Low key and unassuming, Maddux doesn’t bowl people over with his presence in the physical sense. However, when he enters a room of baseball people everyone knows it. His teammates adored him and he always seems to have time for the fans and the press for a good quote or one of those stories he’s famous for.

The hot tub story involving Andre Dawson and Leon Durham is jaw-droppingly funny.

Even in his last game, it looked as if Maddux, at 42, could pitch a few more seasons. In 2007 he made 30 starts, marking the 20th season in his 22 that he started at least 30 games. Had it not been for the two strike-shortened seasons, it would have been a perfect 22-for-22.

Maddux never got hurt, never skipped a start and never changed. It was a career that was so eerily consistent that it was almost boring. Think about it -- every year you knew Maddux was going to pitch every five days no matter what. There was no drama -- just good pitching and good humor.

With 355 career wins and every other award and accomplishment on his ledger, Maddux summed up his career at the Las Vegas Winter Meetings in 2008:

“I never changed,” Maddux said. “I think, ‘Hey, you can locate your fastball and you change speeds no matter who is hitting strikes or what is going on around you.’”

Maddux took special pride in mentoring young players, but made sure that the lessons weren’t one-sided or exclusive to just the players on his team. For instance, during the 2008 season, Maddux took Phillies pitcher Kyle Kendrick aside during batting practice before a game in San Diego and schooled the kid on the finer points of pitching. Sure enough, the lesson was absorbed and Kendrick went out and beat Maddux in the next start.

Maddux says he was learning all the way up to the very end of his career.

“I just think the best way to learn is to screw up and not do it again,” Maddux said. “I think it’s OK to make mistakes. Hopefully you learn by it and you don’t make those mistakes again. I think it’s the easiest way to learn.”

Comments

[AlexRosie]

So is there any chance Phillies could make a bid for Jose Dariel Abreu? If he's legit doesn't that seem like a RH bat we could use? I haven't read anything about him being to play outfield but that is is if Amaro is willing to spend any money which I am leery about. Seems unlikely but this team needs an actual impact bat and pitcher not some scrap sh*t like they have been in the last couple off seasons.

[Willard Preacher]

I bash these dudes a lot, but I gotta give credit where credit is due - I sure as hell wasn't expecting a Greg Maddux thread, so I supposed this qualifies as an "alternative viewpoint."

[awh™]

Vic is up with Drew on 2B facing Verlander.

What will he do?

I predict...

[awh™]

a lineout to SS. :)

[Will Schweitzer]

1. Abreu signing with the Phillies? Pssh... that's about as unrealistic as a Beerleaguer profile on the career of Greg Maddux.

Honey, have I told you lately that you're as pretty as Greg Maddux?

[Willard Preacher]

Okay, it's taken almost an hour, but I'm pretty sure I'm ready for the Greg Maddux stories. Annnnnnd go!

[Willard Preacher]

Hopefully, if Rube can take anything away from this postseason at all, it's that Detroit, despite absolutely dominant pitching, looks woefully over-matched at times, thanks mostly to their just over 3 runs/game offense.

[Scotch Man]

You think he's a dark horse for the pitching coach gig?

[GBrettfan]

Another very well-pitched game. By the relievers as well as the starters.

[Juums]

From the last thread:
Espn has an article that lists Philly as one of the logical landing spots for David Price...hypothetical trade of Biddle, Quinn, Joseph and Martin. I'd do it if that was the price tag. Even though I don't think this franchise is competitive in 2014, that would at least be a step in the right direction.

Posted by: Chris in VT | Tuesday, October 15, 2013 at 06:08 PM

I try to avoid Iceman-levels of derision, but...really? By my reckoning that's our best pitching prospect, one of our three best positional prospects, our best internal catching option, and a bullpen piece with three plus pitches. For a team with a still-rehabbing farm system and a that's going to need every talented, cost-controlled player it can get in the next few years, it's profoundly short-sighted to empty the farm for the remainder of David Price's arb-eligible years and the privilege of negotiating to pay him $25MM+ a year for the next 7-8 years after that.

[PLM]

Maddux once K three straight batters whilst he was wrastling with a Croc.

[aksmith]

The Price trade only makes sense if you see Biddle as a prospect who can be an ace or close, or if you see him as a Phillies prospect who will be lucky to reach half of his potential because the instruction in the Phillies minor league system is awful.

[Chris in VT]

Juums - you might be correct about those players' relative standing in our system, but on the grand scheme of things they are by no means prized prospects. Is any of them even top 50 in baseball? Biddle I guess...but he's barely top 50, and is seen by most as a 3rd starter. Quinn struggled mightily this year. Joseph isn't even on the radar after the year he had. And Martin has potential as a bullpen arm, but that's it. Compared to other organizations, the Phils wouldn't be giving up all that much.

Young cost-controlled players only have that value if they're actually contributing quality production. Otherwise they're useless.

[GTown_Dave]

Interestingly (or not) Maddux was the SP for Game 6 of the '93 NLCS. He stayed in the game for 5.2 IP (6 H, 6 R, 5 ER), but never seemed right after Morandini hit a sharp liner off of his leg in the first. Funny that Maddux should also appear in the clinching game of the next NLCS the Phillies won.

[The Truth Injection]

Why does Biddle have to be an ace or close to make that Price deal overly expensive for us? The Phillies need to have some bullets in the chamber for the next couple years and not gut the farm system again with what small amount of talent that is there.

The Price deal they mention would take away a lot of our minimal depth from a system that improved from this time last year.

[Juums]

Chris in VT:
Oh, yes, none of them are blue-chip prospects, but they're the farm system we've got. Biddle's a #3 who should hopefully get it back on track now that his bought with whooping cough has resolved itself; Quinn's still the fastest man in MiLB not named Billy Hamilton; and Joseph, despite losing a year to concussion issues, is still just 22 and continues to have the tools to be a regular big league backstop. If you think they're all developmental dead-ends, then unloading them for Price does make sense: But if they are all developmental dead-ends, it seems unlikely that the Rays would trade Price for them.

The prospect haul aside, trading for Price is also problematic because it only makes sense if you intend to extend him, and the team's already got too much money tied up in too few players as it is. Price is likely going to be worth the ridiculously large salary he's going to get from whatever extension he signs, but the payroll inflexibility of carrying both Cole Hamels and David Price beyond 2015 is something that has to be considered. (Especially as there's still another year of the Howard contract beyond that, plus the buyout. Plus the remainder of Papelbon's contract.) Plus there'd be the very real salary constraints imposed immediately: Price will likely make north of $13MM next year, and God only knows what in his final arb year. The Phils would be looking at having ~$80MM in salary committed to just five pitchers next year if Price were acquired. ($7MM to Adams, $12.5MM to Papelbon, $13MM to Price, $25MM to Lee, and $22.5MM to Hamels.)

[LorecorE]

The odds are heavily in favor of Price being worth more just in 2014-2015 than Biddle/Quinn/Joseph/Martin combined in their first 6 season with the Phillies.

I'd even argue that Joseph/Martin are basically just throw'ins to the deal.

However, does the superior value Price gives you in 2014-2015 really change your team's ability to win, or will it be the potential value of Biddle/Quinn from ~2015-2019 that is more likely to help?

Unfortunately I think its the latter.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

I was a huge fan of the professor. Phil's should have signed him in fa. I know a guy, though,who dislikes him. Seems he got in as the 4th on a golf outing with Maddux bros. And Greg insisted they put money up 2on 2. Guy played as well as he ever did but could separate until mike hit one out of bounds late. Only he says that mike "found" the bal and his friend (clubhouse guy) asked him to let it go. Still bitter and says maddux is a stone cheating f$ck.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Can't type on phone. Guy says gmaddux jumped inand that bros. Were lying a holes. Brothers, though. He was top 5 of all pitchers I've seen.

[LorecorE]

an FYI on Price:

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/plot_bytime.php?s_type=2&time=month&player=456034&b_hand=-1&gFilt=&pFilt=FA|SI&startDate=03/30/2007&endDate=10/15/2013&minmax=ci&var=mph

His fastball/sinker was averaging 96-97 over the last few years, and he was striking out over 24% of batters faced.

Last year he dropped down to 93-94 and only struck out 20% of the batters he faced. He cut his BB% rate down in half (7.2% to 3.7%) to hide the drop in K%/velocity last year.

Cutting any career % in half is likely unsustainable, but a 3.7 BB% is even more extreme. That was lower than every other pitcher in baseball not named Cliff Lee, and only by fractions of a percent.

To put into context, the only pitcher to have a BB% under 4 spanning the last 3 years is Cliff Lee, at 3.9% - so unless David Price maintains Cliff Lee control or finds that extra 3 mph on his fastball again - don't look for him to be Cy worthy in the future.

He's still a good bet to be pretty good, but that much loss in velocity masked by an extremely low bb% are certainly warning signs.

[LorecorE]

oh yea, and Cliff Lee is the man.

[MG]

'93 NLCS Game 6

I still remember the hanger (changeup) Maddux served up to Hollins that put the Phils up 4-1 in the 5th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BcWZatcH08 (go to the 1:26:50 mark)

As great as Maddux was doing the regular season, he underachieved a bit in the post season.

[Iceman]

"I try to avoid Iceman-levels of derision, but...really?"

Come on. If you're going to try to reach my levels of derision, you have to do better than '...really?'

Something like "If you want to further gut an already gutted farm system and piss the next 5-10 years down the drain to lock down an 80-win season next year, that proposal sounds like a great way to make that happen."

[NEPP]

The team needs offense far more than it needs David Price.

[Chris in VT]

Like I said in my original post, I don't think this team is competing in 2014, but I also think Rube is desperate to put together a competitive team next year, and if that's what they're shooting for then adding Price will at least move them in that direction.

I don't think Rube is all that concerned about what's going to happen in 2015 and beyond, to be honest. He's got to be worried about his job at this point. Like he's said plenty of times, if he can't put together a competitive team with this payroll he deserves to be fired.

[MG]

"The team needs offense far more than it needs David Price."

Sadly I'm not so sure about that. Phils have a lot of question marks 3-5 right now especially if KK isn't back.

[NEPP]

The offense is historically bad. You could give us their 2011 rotation and this still probably isnt a playoff team.
.
.
.
I made that quick statement and then decided to try and quantify it because I know someone else would. So if on were to use Pythagorean wins expectation, you would take our 610 runs scored last year and the 529 runs allowed in 2011 with our historically great rotation. 610/(529+610)=.536

.536 X 162=86.83 wins...let's round up to 87 to be fair. So, last year 87 wins would have had us finishing 3 games back from the 2nd WC team. Granted, on average, pythagorean wins has a margin of error of +/- 3 games over a 162 game season so its within the margin of error that we'd have overachieved and won 90 games to force a 1 game playoff for that 2nd wildcard spot.

All that's assuming that adding David Price would make a rotation of Lee, Hamels, Price MAG plus some 5th starter like KK historically good enough to allow those few runs. Given that a large part of RA is also defense and our defense sucks overall, I dont see it happening.

Thus, I think offense is a bit more important given that we scored 3.77 runs per game last year...our worst effort in two decades.

[LorecorE]

an MLB team averaged 4.17 runs scored/allowed last year.

The Phillies scored .40(3.77) runs below that and allowed .45(4.62) runs above it.

By the slimmest of margins, this team was a worse pitching team than hitting.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Still not sure I agree with the fact they won't be "Competing" in 2014.

Signs keep pointing to RAJ trying desperately to get Stanton, but I wonder if/when he comes to the realization that getting Stanton isn't going to happen, he moves to getting Price as a "difference maker", instead.

Tommy Joseph: Quickly become a forgotten about prospect. Concussion issues are huge, but if he can overcome that, he's a good bet to jump up the (Phillies) prospect lists again(as a Catcher).

Can't imagine the Phils would see Ethan Martin as a "throw in" in an imaginary Price deal.

[LorecorE]

NEPP has a good point tho, the defense is bad too, and likely inflates their true pitching.

So a position player who could help overall on offense/defense compared to last year could be more valuable.

And again - we're talking bigtime suckitude all around here - so its all basically a toss up.

[Walt]

Maddux was one of the few visiting players never to sign autographs when he came to town. Like Mike Mordecai he was usually pretty rude to the fans, and would never toss a ball to kids, he would put it back in the batting practice bins every time. Thank goodness for his bawdy sense of humor or I would have thought him a real ass.

[LorecorE]

Rupp with another multihit (2-4) game in the AFL last night.

[WSJ]

I hate the Braves, but Maddux was awesome. I didn't realize that in 1994, his batting average (.222) was higher than his era (1.54), or that in 1997 he went to a 3-0 count one time all year (not including intential BB). Pretty amazing.

[NEPP]

***Maddux was one of the few visiting players never to sign autographs when he came to town.***

That's not exactly true...I got him to sign my program once at a game at the Vet. I also got Glavine, Smoltz and Steve Avery to sign it.

I somehow lost that program at some point unfortunately.

[Don Tollefson]

I raffled off NEPP's autographed program for charity and kept the money and the program for myself. E-A-G-L-E-S, EAGLES!

[NEPP]

Greg Maddux was one of the greatest RHPs in MLB history...we were lucky to be alive during his prime and we might not see a pitcher as good as him for a long, long time. Maddux and Pedro were and are both inner circle HOF talents.

[The Truth Injection]

I think the talk that we won't compete in 2014 is incredibly premature.

We have seen nothing as to what the team is going to do player-wise and won't for at least another month and a half.

There is a way that the team is competitive but it will require some precision and hitting on a lot of guys. Until we start seeing some moves we know nothing.

[Phillibuster]

I don't think we'd make a bid for Abreu.

I heard that Abreu actively hurt this team in the past.

[Meyer]

I'll bet both Matt Stairs and Greg Maddux happily sign autographs when they become Phillies coaches.

[awh™]

Meyer, would you be I favor of Matt Stairs for the second hitting coach?

[Meyer]

2nd hitting coach and thanks to the great article, base stealing coach.

[Voice of Reason]

If you're going to note that a particular player has amazing, jaw-droppingly funny stories to share, shouldn't you share at least one of them w the readers? What is the hot tub story? Or any of the other anecdotes?

[GTown_Dave]

The Phillies are going to make Juan Samuel their new Autograph Coach, whereupon players will begin signing w/ capped pens & spelling their own names incorrectly.

[MG]

"There is a way that the team is competitive but it will require some precision and hitting on a lot of guys. Until we start seeing some moves we know nothing."

You left out a lot of luck and even then I don't think this team can win 89-90 games.

[MG]

Pedro in his prime > Maddux. Pedro didn't quite have the ridiculous precision-guided fastball that Maddux never had the raw stuff Pedro had.

Pedro in '99 was the best pitcher I have ever seen live and it wasn't close. Pedro had as nearly as good as Maddux did in his prime that year and could dial it up still to 95-96 when he needed to even later in a game.

[awh™]

MG, people forget that based on the run-differential, the 2013 Phillies projected to a 66 win team.

It's a pretty big hill to climb just to get back to .500 from there. It would take a 150 run swing.

[MG]

awh - That is why I just think it is a matter of whether or not they can be competitive this upcoming year (~.500) or more of a bottom-feeder (~70 wins)

[LorecorE]

"Maddux took Phillies pitcher Kyle Kendrick aside during batting practice before a game in San Diego and schooled the kid on the finer points of pitching."

Out of all of these so called "stories" about Maddux that no one seems to know about, I'm sure Maddux's least personal favorite is the one where people credit him for schooling Kyle Kendrick on the finer points of pitching.

[Willard Preacher]

Man, I know BL gave me a heads up, and I even tried to prepare myself, but I have been absolutely overwhelmed by the constant onslaught of Greg Maddux stories.

I mean, they're EVERYWHERE! - work, home, gas station restrooms, Bible study - it's just been insane!

[LorecorE]

At first take I thought Geoff Jenkins was Randy Wolf.

[Sil]

I heard that Abreu actively hurt this team in the past.

Rube doesn't mind guys that actively hurt the team. What else could explain DYak's hanging on for so long?

[GBrettfan]

Greinke got out of a bases-loaded, no-out jam in the 1st. Dodgers have to hope he comes out strong in subsequent innings.

[Willard Preacher]

Man I hate the thought of the Cardinals just a win away from the World Series again. I'd rather see Puig flipping his bat after every pitch.

[Willard Preacher]

The Dodgers needed an early lead. Now they need to pound away on Kelly.

[LorecorE]

I didn't realize Grienke ended the season with a .400 OBP and a 126 OPS+ in his 72 PA this year. Pretty impressive.

[WSJ]

Just for fun MG.

W-L ERA ERA+ K/BB BB/9 CG IP
1995 Maddux 19-2 1.63 260 7.87 1.0 10 209
1999 Martinez 23-4 2.07 243 13.2 1.6 3 213

I mean, talk about two ridiculous seasons. I feel many people tend to underrate Maddux, but he was excellent, and for a long time. Anyway, imagine if a Phillies pitcher put up either of these types of seasons, and how fun that would be to watch.

[WSJ]

Also, imagine if I could format properly. It's probably because I learned how to format from Juan Samuel.

[Dragon]

That Greg Maddux hot tub story is, indeed, a real pisser.

[Jack]

We won't compete in 2014.

[LorecorE]

Juan Samuel coached Jack in optimism.

[aksmith]

Maddux 95 and Martinez 99 are probably more similar than they look at first blush because of the DH in the AL. And because of the "Maddux-Glavine" strike zone. But Maddux was incredible to watch.

There was an opening day game, I don't remember what year it was, where Maddux was going up against Schilling. Eric Gregg was the home plate ump and he gave both pitchers the wide zone he was famous for. The Phillies ended up winning 1-0, IIRC, but I spent the entire game wondering how great Schilling's numbers would be if he always got the same strike zone Maddux got.

I also wonder how much better Cliff Lee's career numbers would look if he got the "Maddux-Glavine" zone every time he pitched. Those two got more benefit of the doubt from umps than I've ever seen for anyone else going back to the early sixties.

If I were starting a team and had the career primes of either Maddux or Martinez to choose from, I'd take Martinez because he never seemed to get overly favorable calls from the umps and still dominated. And I'd take Eric Gregg behind the plate for all of his starts.

[Willard Preacher]

Beltran just has that flair for the postseason, doesn't he?

[aksmith]

It is highly unlikely the Phils will be competitive in 2014. That's based on who they have now and the track record of the ownership group and the GM. However, I am willing to be surprised and hopeful that sometimes untalented people get lucky.

[Jack]

TTI: "Until we start seeing some moves we know nothing"

This is not right, actually. Until we start seeing some moves, we know that it's *incredibly unlikely* that they could put together the right series of moves that all works out and takes the team from a 66-70 win quality team (by run differential) to a 90-win team.

I suppose you're right that until we see moves (actually, until we see the results on the field really--no one thought the Red Sox were a WS-caliber team just by signing Victoino, Napoli, and Uehara), we can't rule it out. But we can certainly say it's a very, very long shot. I mean, this is not some 50/50 proposition--maybe the moves work and they compete, and maybe they don't. You yourself said it requires precision and hitting on a lot of guys.

You think it's likely that Amaro can do that?

[D Pat]

I'd take Pedro over Maddux any day. He threw harder. You can't teach that. If you throw hard with movement, you can get by on a day when you're not at your best. Maddux was a great pitcher though.

Nice write-up on the Phils off-season outlook on MLBTR yesterday.

[Willard Preacher]

Doesn't look like either of today's NL pitchers are going to be confused for any of the Detroit starters this afternoon.

[Willard Preacher]

Molina doing his best M Young impression so far today. 0-2 with two GIDP, each time with RISP.

[MG]

If you compare Pedro's stats for the '99 season vs other AL pitchers they are more impressive than Maddux's '95 season.

Also talking rough stuff too. Who would you rather see pitch? A pitcher who has pinpoint accuracy but gets his share of contact but has more of a moderate fastball or a guy who isn't afraid a dust a guy or even bean him who crowds the plate with nearly as good of command while pumping fastball routinely at 94-95, one of the best changeups in the Post WW2 area, and a classic 12-6 curve along with cutter.

Crazy thing too is that Pedro's '00 season is actually statistically more impressive. Just didn't quite have the same velocity and the ability to dial it up late in games that year. Always wonder if his injury in the '99 All-Star game (overthrew and remember him hitting 98 or 99 while striking out the side at Fenway) affected him long-term a bit.

[Jack]

At the absolute top of their games, I would take Pedro over Maddux as well.

But a) that's still a very close call, and b) Maddux gets credit for having a much longer run of consistent quality than Pedro did.

[Willard Preacher]

So much for commanding those all important "shut down innings."

[GTown_Dave]

... Maddux gets credit for having a much longer run of consistent quality than Pedro did.

Those rare players who manage to stay healthy & continue to put up great numbers year after year after year are, to me, the most impressive of all.

[Willard Preacher]

Crawford HR puts LAD up 4-2.

[GBrettfan]

Sheffield was unhappy with Crawford last night for "not doing his job as a leadoff hitter" by hitting fly balls (pop-ups) rather than just getting on base. (Yes, it sounded familiar and I wondered what he would say about JRoll.)

[Chris in VT]

I would take Pedro's 3-year prime from 98-00 over Maddux's 93-95 run, but it's a close call.

And I would definitely take the full career of Maddux over Pedro's full career. His consistency and longevity is fairly amazing in the modern era.

[Willard Preacher]

Dodgers 5-2 after an AJ Ellis HR.

M Young in to hit for Greinke.

[Willard Preacher]

Back to St. Louis they'll go.

[GTown_Dave]

The more I see of Puig the less likable he becomes. So much talent, so little intelligence.

[GBrettfan]

Puig's young yet. And enthusiastic. I'll give him a chance.

[GBrettfan]

Peavy walking in a run? Not good.

[GBrettfan]

Looks like it will be 2 games apiece after tonight.

[GBrettfan]

The more I watch Victorino's defense, the more I bemoan our 2013 OF.

[The Truth Injection]

TTI: "Until we start seeing some moves we know nothing"

This is not right, actually. Until we start seeing some moves, we know that it's *incredibly unlikely* that they could put together the right series of moves that all works out and takes the team from a 66-70 win quality team (by run differential) to a 90-win team.

I suppose you're right that until we see moves (actually, until we see the results on the field really--no one thought the Red Sox were a WS-caliber team just by signing Victoino, Napoli, and Uehara), we can't rule it out. But we can certainly say it's a very, very long shot. I mean, this is not some 50/50 proposition--maybe the moves work and they compete, and maybe they don't. You yourself said it requires precision and hitting on a lot of guys.

You think it's likely that Amaro can do that?
________________________________________

JTroll: I think people talking in absolutes about the 2014 season before there is even any moves in that direction are being premature. I expect nothing less from you. And I care what your opinion on things is about as much as I cared what "Dodger Dollars" opinion was.

It is clear what this team needs- a starting outfielder, bullpen reinforcements, and a back end of the rotation starter. I am willing to wait and see how those holes get plugged. And yes that requires Amaro to hit on a majority of those moves. If we start bringing in a bunch of guys like Delmon Young then ye- we are probably in trouble for 2014.

Until then it is speculation by everyone and I know "But TTI it's a blog and that is what we do...wah wah Go Braves" but using speculation as absolutes is idiotic.

[cut_fastball]

Some posters admire the Atlanta Braves' ability to keep a stocked farm system, and find enough talent more often than not to field a competitive team. A team that does not have gross salaries bumping up on the luxury tax limit. I'm one of those jealous Phillies fans.

I've not read a single soul "speculate" and call it dogma. Oh, yea, one more thing. There's a poster named Jack - who probably could post more - who always presents his opinions with style and grace and often with facts to back them up. Jack's posts are antithetical to the very concept of troll.

[NEPP]

I'd take Pedro's peak over pretty much any pitcher in MLB history. He was simply unhittable at the top of his game. You could tell the hitter exactly what was coming and they'd still swing and miss.

[The Truth Injection]

cut: Don't mistake my Braves aside as a dig at the way they do business.

Also, I have no problem if you like Jack. You tend to like a lot of posters I don't. Yet generally I don't have a specific issue with you outside of the Cole not being friendly enough to the team argument that you admitted was kind of silly.

Jack is a troll to me but is a level above trolls of the lowest form. But quite Frankly I don't like him. I have no use for him at this point and do not care one bit for his opinion on things.

Also, cut: You may have a different opinion of absolutes but when people say "We won't compete in 2014." "Doesn't matter who we sign." They are speaking in absolutes.

[cut_fastball]

Years ago, Stark had an article - probably on ESPN - that stated in all of the modern era, Martinez had the greatest ERA+ differential for the longest period of time. Simply put, when measured by ERA+ (it could have been ERA), Martinez held the largest lead over second place for the greatest number of years.

Baseball is an amazing sport - physical stature is disconnected with the ceiling on achievement. I vote Pedro Martinez.

[LorecorE]

i'll second dpat's recommendation of the mlbtr write up for the Phillies.

Doesn't tell you too much that most here haven't already discussed, but is very thorough on each subject and adds a great collection of sources to go with a nice objective look at their situation.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2013/10/offseason-outlook-philadelphia-phillies.html

[NEPP]

Back in his prime, if Pedro was on television, you stopped what you were doing and watched him. Every start was an event.

His 7 year peak from 1997-2003 is unrivaled in baseball history from a statistical standpoint. The only other guy that comes close is Sandy Koufax from 1961-1966. Koufax pitched far more innings per year than him but his peripherals weren't as impressive and he did it on a higher mound in the 2nd deadball era.

I suspect that Pedro will be the best pitcher I will ever see in my lifetime.

[Chris in VT]

Kershaw hasn't quite reached that level yet, but I will say that his 3-year run has been pretty damn impressive, especially when you consider they've covered his ages 23-25 seasons...

697 IPs, 166 ERA+, 0.971 WHIP, has led the league in ERA and WHIP each of those seasons, won 2 CYs (I'm assuming he wins this year) and finished 2nd the other year.

If he improves at all like most LHPs do in their late 20s, he could be moving into that echelon of greatest SPs of the modern era.

[WSJ]

This will be my last post on this (off) topic topic, but In terms of dominance, I’ll throw Randy Johnson’s 2001 season out there:
W-L ERA IP ERA+ WHIP BB/9 K/9
Johnson 21-6 2.49 249.2 188 1.01 2.6 13.4

Led the league in Wins, ERA, K’s, and had the highest k/9 rate ever. Struck out 10 or more batters 23 times, plus had a 20 strikeout game. Oh yeah, he won three games in the World Series (one was a 3 hit shutout) and killed a dove with a fastball. All at age 37.

[NEPP]

Kershaw is the closest current guy to that level. If he keeps it up, he'll be a step below him obviously. He'd need to step up another level and have 3-4 ridiculous seasons to get to Pedro.

But yes, Kershaw is just awesome...he's pretty much the only thing I like about the Dodgers organization.

Pedro during his 7 year peak had a 213 ERA+ and a 0.940 WHIP...while striking out 11/3 per 9 (compared to Kershaw's 9.2 SO/9 in the last 3 seasons)

[NEPP]

The most impressive part of that is the killed dove...I still laugh when I see that clip.

[NEPP]

If Kershaw stays healthy and elite in 2014, he's probably looking at a 10 year/$300 million payday.

If he stays healthy that is. He hits FA after his Age 26 season (almost unheard of these days) and he is undisputedly the best pitcher in baseball. Coincidentally, the Phillies would have the money to sign him in 2015 thanks to the new tv deal.

Something to consider.

[The Truth Injection]

NEPP: Amaro is already salivating

[Juums]

NEPP:
A $30MM AAV is staggering, but given salary inflation in baseball, it's something that could be borne for a pitcher of Kershaw's quality. But is there anybody in baseball worth a ten-year commitment? There's just so much risk there that, when combined with the horrid track record of megacontracts to date, I doubt anybody gets close to that.

[NEPP]

***But is there anybody in baseball worth a ten-year commitment?***

Short answer: No.
Long answer: Hell No.

[Juums]

NEPP:
My thoughts as well, though you could make an argument for Trout. But that only makes sense if you're buying out his arb-years too, so that your commitment would be from when he was 24-34. And that's still a very iffy proposition, given that contract would still likely be bigger than the one A-Rod.

[Phillibuster]

I think an 8/220 might work for Kershaw. The track record of lengthy contracts on pitchers in particular is really bad, so anybody offering 10 years is going to offset that with lower AAV.

Put another way, if he thinks he'll have the goods at 31/32 to net another great contract, he might be up for a 5/150 or 4/120 deal. The contracts in 2019/2020 will likely be about 15-20% higher than today due to inflation, so he could be looking at another 150+ after his next deal.

[NEPP]

Supposedly, the Dodgers and Kershaw were previously discussing a 7 year/$210 million deal with an opt-out clause after year 5. That was back in August but there hasn't been any word since then.

Basically a $30 M AAV is what he wants and what the Dodgers seem comfortable paying.

[Sil]

I get the feeling the DODGERS DOLLARS will match any other team's offer for Kershaw. Those figures are funny money at that point, but he'll get every bit of it.