It's over: Phils, Revere reach deal, avoid arbitration

To no surprise, Ben Revere and the Phillies avoided arbitration on Friday by agreeing to a one-year, $1.95 million deal.

Revere became the fourth and final arbitration-eligible Phillie to ink a one-year deal, joining Kyle Kendrick, John Mayberry Jr. and Antonio Bastardo.

Revere made $515,000 in 2013 and asked for a 2014 salary of $2.425 million, while the team offered $1.4 million.

So Revere’s midpoint was just over $1.9 million. Turns out, both parties landed right around that.

And with that, the arbitration talks thankfully come to an end.

Comments

[Biggs]

At 5:11 clout wrote:

"Lee, Utley and Ruiz should have all been traded last year."

What could possibly go wrong with that? We'd get 4 future starting position players and 2 #1 or #2 rotation guys, right?

_____________________________________________________________

Absolutely a lot could go wrong, especially with Amaro making the deals. It's also possible they could have got a couple good players for the future while freeing up some money.

All things considered I think it's time to rebuild. Does that involve risk? Yea it does, but standing pat and adding a few fringe players doesn't do much to excite me either. If there's an easy answer that everyone agreed would fix the Phils I'm sure it would have already been done.

Just curious, what do you think they should do to become contenders again?

[clout]

Biggs: They shouldn't stand pat. But dealing what little value you have for prospects, 70% of whom fail, will guarantee a decade of losing.

[clout]

Dpat: Check with your sources. They will say that Franco is head and shoulders a better prospect than Asche.

[clout]

Re: Ryan Doumit. He is a terrible fielder. Can't throw anyone out. His CS% past 4 years is 12%, 24%, 21%, 20%.

That is beyond horrendous. Good bat though.

[Jackamac]

I just thought I would bring it up, but for the Pro-Asche guys, his minor league numbers weren't incredibly different than Utley's. I'm just really looking at AAA ball though. Chutley never played in Reading when he was coming up, so AAA is pretty much the only constant between the two. Still interesting though.

[Jackamac]

Also thought I'd join the club of registering my username. I'm not even gonna let some idiot come on under my alias and insinuate that I fellate other Beerleaguer users.

[NEPP]

***Dpat: Check with your sources. They will say that Franco is head and shoulders a better prospect than Asche.***

Exactly. The biggest question with Asche is whether or not he can hit for power to stay at 3B. If he hits 10-15 HR with just average defense and Franco hits 30+ HR again this year in AAA, its hard to say Asche shouldn't be bumped. Given that Franco's ceiling is supposedly an average defender who will hit 30-35 HR (ie elite power for a 3B), its hard to say that's not the right decision.

[Bonehead]

I'm for letting things play out until July to see if the longshot comes in, and this group has one more run left.

Much of the reason I feel this way is because I have no faith in Rube to make trades, identify talent, or wisely utilize payroll budget room.

[Bonehead]

Nothing mind-bending in my post above. Basically I was testing my new account.

[NEPP]

On the Asche/Franco conundrum...that sort of situation tends to work itself naturally for the most part. Odds are either Asche will suck and need to be removed from a starting role or there will be another injury on the diamond (say Howard at 1B) that will allow Franco to have a starting role.

Its really a non-issue unless Asche really breaks out in 2014 and Franco is killing it in AAA with no opening for him on the MLB club. At that point, one of the two becomes trade bait to help fill another hole on the roster. That's not really a bad thing either way.

[NEPP]

So Garza got a vesting year tacked on to his 4 year deal...still a pretty fair deal overall. He could make as much as $67 million if all the incentives are met with $50 million guaranteed and a $13 million option for that final year.

Not bad at all for him and the Brewers really. Much more reasonable than the ridiculous deal that Tanaka ended up with.

[MG]

Yeah NEPP. The question is whether Asche is a 12-14 HR guy or a 20+ HR guy who hits his share of 2Bs and plays average defense.

Even if Asche hits .250-.260 with a moderate OBP, he'll stick if he shows power and plays average defense he'll easily have a job at 3B.

3B talent right now is pretty lean and only 8 3B hit 20+ HRs last year.

Asche should be a better player than a guy like Matt Dominguez and Dominquez was rated the 18th most valuable 3B according to Fan Graphs and 16th in Baseball Reference.

[The Truth Injection]

I love 69ing with Jackamac. He gives great head.

[Bubba]

The Mets trolls weren't so bad after all.

[The Truth Injection]

Dpat: I appreciate the sentiment but honestly- I don't care and it doesn't faze me. Like I said- I would have one of two reactions to it and honestly neither one would offend me.

I am going to go way off baseball book here a minute but what level it offends me on is- being a teacher in high school I have worked multiple times with students who are battling with their sexuality and are completely frustrated and scared to admit their sexual identities because they are afraid of the retribution it will cause. And as long as there are dopes out there- like whatever small minded troll is here- who think it is absolutely hilarious to mock someone with gay taunts- I honestly don't blame those students.

It's nonsense like this that ruins discourse- even Internet discourse- and does not allow civilization to advance out of the stone age with their idiotic thoughts about who and what people should love.

[LorecorE]

If someone thinks Asche needs to be a +20HR guy to stick, then you are heavily stacking the odds against him.

His game is to make a lot of solid contact and hit for a high average. His best chance to be an impact players is to be a .280/.350/.430 type hitter.

To get to that line, he can't have a 24 K% like he did in his debut season, or he's not going to cut it.

He'll basically need to be a Martin Prado type hitter. Realistically he probably can't make as good of contact as Prado, but there is a shot he can sit a tad below.

[DPat]

Clout~ No doubt Franco may be a better prospect than Ache. I've just never seen Franco play, so I can't comment on him.

Lore- Not saying that Ashe needs to hit 20. But if he can hit 12 with 70 RBI and hit .260, he'll stick. His defense makes that offensive line a bonus. We just don't need another Polanco at 3b.

TTI~ I hear ya. Yeah, there are trolls here. It may not bother you, but stuff like that shouldn't be posted anyway. There are many fake posters here. Like I say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. It's certainly ok to disagree with someone. You and I do it all the time. Like you I have a logical background. I work in the science field. But I go more on opinions, gut feelings and hunches. And because if that, I tend to get crazy here at times. But when people come on here and post crap like that, it just bothers me. I too wish people would just grow up. Peace, out.

[bay_area_phan]

"I just thought I would bring it up, but for the Pro-Asche guys, his minor league numbers weren't incredibly different than Utley's."

Not that this is any great revelation, but a great many players had minor league numbers that were similar to Utley's. About 99.99% of them turned out to be substantially worse than Utley at the major league level, and many of them turned out to be complete busts.

[Dragon]

I don't pretend to know if Asche is the answer at 3B. What I do know is that he showed enough last season to at least warrant a full shot at the position next year. Give the kid a full season, he just might work out.

[Jackamac]

But BAP, in addition to the numbers, don't you see some Utley in Asche? What comes to mind is the short, quick swing through the ball.

And TTI, it's the internet. Certain people, probably full of self-hate, will make gay slurs and jokes all the time. Best to just ignore it, or laugh at yourself. If they don't think that they're hurting your feelings they'll drop the subject...in search of a new one.

[Kashmir]

From Charlie Wilmoth, MLBTR

In the abstract, it might seem like the Phillies should rebuild from the ground up, but their situation is actually more complex than that, Brad Johnson of FanGraphs writes. Rebuilding efforts can fail, and memories of a streak of mostly poor play from 1987 through 2000 linger in the minds of Phillies fans, who Johnson says aren't a patient bunch. And even if the Phillies sold some of their big contracts, they would still have plenty of payroll obligations. Given the situation they've gotten themselves into, Johnson argues, simply trying not to lose too much might be the best strategy for them this year.

[curt]

Early frontrunner for the title of the 2014 video -- "Simply Trying Not to Lose too Much."

[cut_fastball]

...Not that this is any great revelation, but a great many players had minor league numbers that were similar to Utley's. About 99.99% of them turned out to be substantially worse than Utley at the major league level, and many of them turned out to be complete busts.

Posted by: bay_area_phan | Monday, January 27, 2014 at 12:33 AM

This is why MLB talent evaluation and front office management demands the highest level of competency, and ultimately, why salaries for successful big-leaguers will always remain amongst the highest for professional athletes. And why I have practically no faith the Phillies become competitive again unless the team is sold to a competent owner.

I'd hate to be the owner of an NFL franchise right now - there's no "safe" level of head trauma, and the very essence of that game demands that high-hazard impacts occur on each play!

Chronic traumatic encephalopathy is irreversible. If I'm the parent of a young man, I forbid him to play American-style football, period. Perhaps we see the best athletes embrace baseball more frequently than in the recent past. For these reasons, the future of MLB is pretty good, if not flat-out bright.

[NEPP]

***Rebuilding efforts can fail, and memories of a streak of mostly poor play from 1987 through 2000 linger in the minds of Phillies fans, ***

You know, if it was just that 13 year period that they really sucked, it wouldn't be so much of a problem but its the historic ineptitude of the franchise with basically terrible teams from 1883-1914, 1916-1949 and then from 1951-1975ish that also sting. They've historically been one of the worst teams in baseball history...its not just a recent thing for the fanbase to endure.

[LorecorE]

cut fastball: curious, what exactly in bap's post led you to quote it and then make the post that you did? He talked about Utley outperforming his milb numbers and you responded with mlb salaries vs nfl head trauma?

[LorecorE]

my new pet peeve is that the "Philadelphia fanbase" not only creates some unique obstacle when running a baseball team, but that its such a substantial dynamic that it alters the realty of what decisions should be made.

"if this was a normal city, then they should do X, but since its Philadelphia and their 1964 team lost games at the end of the season and had a radio show crowd boo Donovan McNabb on draft day, they should instead do Y"

[NEPP]

Remember, other teams do not apparently have fanbases that are itchy like that. We all know that those fanbases are awesome unlike the evil Phillies fanbase that boos Santa and assaults opposing fans.

[awh]

NEPP, if you remove the 30 year period from 1919 - 1949, the franchise actually has a winning record.

[LorecorE]

dpat: "Not saying that Ashe needs to hit 20. But if he can hit 12 with 70 RBI and hit .260, he'll stick. His defense makes that offensive line a bonus."

Disagree. Even if he did cut his K% down, a .260 avg and 12 HR would generate an optimistic line of about .260/.320/.390. That would barely cut it if his defense was above average, which it isn't.

[bullit]

do you mean pet theory, LorecorE? otherwise it sounds like you are stating a fact. i understand that you're being tongue in cheek. NEPP also seems to imply that this fan attytood is genetic, or at least handed down from father to son. is every philly generation "burdened" by even the distant past? didn't someone recently post about how good the phils actually rank over the last 40 years, iirc?

[NEPP]

Its not genetic but it is definitely generational. Philly fans tend to assume the worst is going to happen and are stunned when it doesn't turn out that way...regardless of which of the 4 teams it is. Its quite a cynical fanbase overall...with very good reason given the history of its four teams.

[Edmundo]

FWIW, I just saw BPro's Top 101 prospects:
Franco's in the 50s
Biddle's in the 90s

On the surface, it looks like rebuilding is out. :(

I hope Amaro is as smart as he thinks he is compared to the prospect pundits. My fear is that he is worse, far worse and that this franchise doesn't have a chance of being good again in this decade.

And I don't have too many decades left.

[bullit]

i was just kidding you. with a degree in biology (like rube) i understand. i should have put quotation marks around genetics.

[NEPP]

Other groups have Franco a bit higher than 50s...I believe he was #27 on one list.

[Redburb]

The farm took a few hits with Watson, Morgan and Quinn all getting hurt this past year. I don't think the farm is good by any stretch of the imagination but it's not the worst farm system in the division either.

[NEPP]

I believe the farm is currently ranked around #20 overall in the Majors. Mediocre but not terrible basically.

Definitely not a strength.

[Meyer]

I just went through the family photo albums from 1890 through 1972. Not one male ancestor was smiling.

[Redburb]

NEPP - Good news is that picking #7 there's a chance that whomever is picked will help the system in a big way. Also I wouldn't be surprised to see Crawford on top 100 lists by midseason.

[bullit]

LOL, Meyer. priceless. you always make me laugh.

[awh™]

NEPP, OTOH, I think it's probably more accurate to take a look at THE RECORD OF THIS OWNERSHIP GROUP since Giles and Co. bought the team.

I'll have that for you shortly...

[NEPP]

Crawford was listed as a Top 100 guy on a couple of the end of season lists after 2013...It was somewhat of a surprise he wasn't listed on the new 2014 lists given his pedigree and great first season.

Anybody we draft at #7 should automatically become no worse than the #4 prospect in our system after Biddle, Franco, and Crawford.

[NEPP]

That's probably the fairest way to do it, awh...I dont know that it really matters when talkign about a fanbase and its history with a particular fanbase.

As I have said before, if you look at the fanbase since about 1975, they compare pretty favorably with the rest of the sport when it comes to won/loss, WS wins, and playoff appearances.

[bay_area_phan]

"But BAP, in addition to the numbers, don't you see some Utley in Asche? What comes to mind is the short, quick swing through the ball."

The swing is similar, but that doesn't mean much. Some of the nicest swings in MLB history were by guys who couldn't hit.

I actually like Cody Asche. My only point is: saying that he has a similar swing, or similar minor league numbers to Utley, is like making Michael Jordan comparisons for the dime-a-dozen college hoops players who can jump high & score 20 pts per game. It tells us pretty much nothing about how he's going to turn out.

[awh™]

bap, Abraham Nunez had a beautiful swing... :)

[NEPP]

Utley was nationally regarded as a legit prospect from pretty much the moment he was drafted. There's a reason he was taken 15th overall after all.

[awh™]

My last post got lost in Komkast cyberspace.

since 1981:

2627 - 2596

Since Bill Giles installed himself as GM in 1984:

2389 - 2403

Worst ownership group in the sport? Probably not.

But given the size of the market in which they operate and their failure to recognize it (do good businessmen really miss an opportunity like that?), I'm not sure you can call them successful.

[Phils Fan]

I predict better than 81-81 this year. If my boys stay healthy a wild card isn't out of the question.

Byrd replacing D. Young is a big upgrade. Asche will play better than Michael Young. Hernandez & Gonzalez will pitch better than Halladay & Lannan. Lincoln will be better than someone from last year's bullpen.

The starting lineup missed 400 games last year. The Phils should get better play and more games out of C, 1B, SS, 3B, CF & RF. Utley and Brown should be similar players to last year with Brown having the chance to be an elite offensive left fielder.

KK playing for a contract helps. Paps hip injury was worse than he or the team let on and he'll return to being a reliable closer. Diekman can be a solid set up pitcher that continues to improve. Martin can dominate an inning with his fastball.

I don't see the doom and gloom so many paint this season out to be. I guess people see what they want since no one's played a game yet.

[bay_area_phan]

More realistically:

Byrd will be only a slight upgrade over Delmon Young in RF.

Utley won't be as good as he was last year & may miss substantial time.

Howard will suck again.

Rollins will suck again.

KK will be KK.

Fausto will be no better than Lannan, MAG will be pitching out of the bullpen & poorly at that, and whoever wins the 5th starter's spot will be pitching to a 5+ ERA.

Diekman & Martin will be back at AAA before June 1, due to inability to throw strikes.

[Meyer]

Maybe Bob McClure will bring something to the table this season. I'm awaiting the day that he surfaces arm in arm with a polished MAG.

[MG]

Philly isn't Pittsburgh or KC and of course rebuilding efforts can fail.

The Phils current strategy though really isn't a strategy. It is status quo with no clear goal in mind except 'hopefully stay competitive' which given the team's recent performance and additions this offseason is unlikley.

Basically what transpired this year is that the Phils have locked in the same core the next 2 years and likely just shifted the rebuilding out to the future by a few years.

Yeah teams like the Yanks and Cards have been the exception but the Phils are neither. Don't have the Yanks deep pockets or the Cards scouting/development acumen (almost no team in MLB does though).

[Redburb]

2014 Silver lining - No Mini-Mart.

[clout]

DPat: "Not saying that Ashe needs to hit 20. But if he can hit 12 with 70 RBI and hit .260, he'll stick. His defense makes that offensive line a bonus."

His defense? WTF are you talking about?

[NEPP]

Well, if its average it'd be better than what we had last year.

Of course, that's a big question considering how inconsistent he was in his limited sample size last year.

[Jack]

I'll go out on a limb.

The biggest reason the team is in the situation they are now is not the big contracts handed out to veterans, nor Rube's philosophy on player evaluation (though, to be clear, that does not help at all).

No, the biggest reason is the complete and utter failure of the farm system. Dom Brown is the only passable regular the system has produced since Kyle Kendrick made his debut in 2007. They got adequate performances out of guys like Happ and Worley, but they've flamed out elsewhere (and frankly we were smart to trade them when we did).

Here's the truth. When you're stuck always trying to fill your roster by re-signing your own older players or other teams' older players, you're going to lose eventually. We haven't signed good international FAs, we haven't drafted well, and we haven't developed the guys we did sign and/or draft. In the acquisition and development of talent, the franchise has been abysmal over the last decade or so (once the core group of Burrell-Rollins-Utley-Howard-Myers-Hamels-Madson all reached the majors). It's been a disaster.

[MG]

Biggest surprise to me in camp would be Franco making the Opening Day roster. That would be a stunner.

[awh™]

"More realistically:

Byrd will be only a slight upgrade over Delmon Young in RF."

bap, even if all Byrd does is put up _elm_n's offensive numbers [.261/.302/.397], it will still be a pretty big upgrade on defense alone - and I don't even expect Byrd to repeat 2013 at the plate.

"Utley won't be as good as he was last year & may miss substantial time."

I have the over/under on games played for Utley at 139-1/2.

"Howard will suck again."

Can he possibly be worse than last season? I guess so, but I'd bet more on a slight upgrade, though I don't expect much against LHP.

"Rollins will suck again."

Yeah, Jimmy needs to try to rebound, but he may have nothing in the tank. I was amazed that he actually had a positive WAR last season.

"KK will be KK."

He has yet to prove he can perform consistently as a starter for an entire season.

"Fausto will be no better than Lannan..."

He was better last year. Don't you think he can repeat 2013? :)

"MAG will be pitching out of the bullpen
& poorly at that..."

Total unknown at this point. He'll be interesting to watch in ST.

"...and whoever wins the 5th starter's spot will be pitching to a 5+ ERA."

That's true of almost every MLB team, so what's your point?

"Diekman & Martin will be back at AAA before June 1, due to inability to throw strikes."

Diekman still has a lot to prove because two months do not a career make. With the addition of Gaudin, I don't even expect Martin to break camp with the team.

[derekcarstairs]

Let's be clear: the jury is still out on the gloves of both Franco and Asche. It should not be assumed, moreover, that, just because Franco's slow afoot and Asche isn't, the latter is better defensively.

Last season, 3B was a black hole defensively for the Phils not just because of M. Young, but also because of Asche's inconsistent play.

[bay_area_phan]

"With the addition of Gaudin, I don't even expect Martin to break camp with the team."

Other than Papelbon, Bastardo, and maybe Lincoln, the bullpen is a total free-for-all. Sometime before the spring training games start, we should have a thread where we predict the Phillies' opening day bullpen. The winner gets to choose between an all-expenses-paid dinner date with DPatrone's source or three free haircuts from Luis Garcia.

[NEPP]

I think its pretty safe to say that Lincoln will be in the bullpen come opening day. Barring a massive implosion in ST, I think he is essentially guaranteed a spot.

[NEPP]

Projection wise, both Oliver and Steamer are quite optimistic about Asche:

Steamer: .728 OPS in 439 PA
Oliver: .749 OPS in 600 PA

Not that that means much of anything.

[bay_area_phan]

"Barring a massive implosion in ST, I think [Lincoln] is essentially guaranteed a spot."

You're probably right. We need all the bullpen help we can get and that 85 career ERA+ just screams excellence.

[NEPP]

Rube acquired him as his offseason bullpen addition...that alone almost guarantees they'll break camp with him on the 25 man.

[clout]

Jack: "the biggest reason is the complete and utter failure of the farm system."

100% correct.

[Jack]

It should probably be assumed from the fact that the Phillies are playing him at 1B this year that Franco isn't great defensively at 3B.

[awh™]

bap, yes, it may be a free for all, but I don't expect Martin to make the big club out of camp.

[bay_area_phan]

Oh, and just to be clear, my sarcasm wasn't directed at NEPP's belief that Lincoln is a lock for the pen (with which I agree). It was directed at RAJ's ideas about what constitutes bullpen help.

[derekcarstairs]

When talking about a starting position player, the number of games played sometimes deceives; the important number is the number of games started.

Although an improvement over the three previous seasons, Utley started only 123 games in 2013, meaning that he missed 39 starts or just under a quarter of the games.

How many starts does Utley make in 2014? My guess for '13 was 108 games (happily off by 15); my guess for '14 is 112 games, i.e., I think Utley will miss 50 starts this upcoming season.

[awh™]

"No, the biggest reason is the complete and utter failure of the farm system."

(Jack and clout, I had a post on that that got lost in cyberspace... again.)

Add to that the failure of the Lee and Pence trades to Seattle and SFG.

They got almost nothing worthwhile in return, and they got fleeced by Ed Wade when they traded FOR Pence.

[clout]

To follow up on Jack's excellent point: Here's a list of farmhands who've graduated to the MLB level with the Cardinals the past 4 years:
Allen Craig, Matt Carpenter, Matt Adams, Jon Jay, Pete Kozma, Dan Descalso, Kolten Wong, Shelby Miller, Lance Lynn, Trevor Rosenthal, Joe Kelly, Mike Wacha, Fernando Salas.

How does that group compare to Phillies farmhands who've debuted the past 4 years?

[NEPP]

Jack: "the biggest reason is the complete and utter failure of the farm system."

100% correct.

Posted by: clout | Monday, January 27, 2014 at 11:54 AM

Hey, we all completely agree on something...time to shut this place down I guess.

[bay_area_phan]

"yes, it may be a free for all, but I don't expect Martin to make the big club out of camp."

Probably not, since it would be hard to make the opening day bullpen of a team which does not even regard him as a relief pitcher.

Barring additional acquisitions, my predicted opening day pen is:

Papelbon
Bastardo
Lincoln
Diekman
Gaudin
DeFratus
Munson

My predicted 5th starter is Pettibone. MAG starts the year at AAA.

[NEPP]

bap, when looking at Lincoln's career ERA+, it'd probably be best to consider the following split:

as starter: 5.65 ERA in 116.1 IP
as reliever: 3.56 ERA in 103.2 IP

His stuff plays up quite a bit better in the bullpen. That's part of why I think it was a fairly smart acquisition by our esteemed GM.

[awh™]

Also, the farm system is barren because they lost a fair number of picks by signing FA's.

Here's the list, since 2000, of guys that were drafted using the Phillies surrendered 1st Round picks:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/snydebr02.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=henry-001car

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kenneia01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=matthe000kev

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=johnso006chr

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/f/frankni01.shtml

Apparently, other teams have missed with some of those picks.

[NEPP]

***t should probably be assumed from the fact that the Phillies are playing him at 1B this year that Franco isn't great defensively at 3B. ***

Or they have a good idea of where Howard is at physically and think they need a legit backup plan sooner rather than later at 1B.

Or possibly a combination of the two.

[Juums]

A recurrent theme of comments on Beerleaguer this off-season has been that the Phillies seem rudderless and without any kind of strategic vision. But that's a bit disingenuous, don't you think? The Phils are clearly pursuing a strategy, which is attempting to tread water as a .500ish team with their core and the usage moderate cost, short-term acquisitions to plug holes. This allows them to, if things work out, put butts in the seats and maybe just sneak into the play-offs if things break right, while stockpiling draft picks and being free of (new) contractual deadweight in 3-5 years when the fruits of those stockpile draft picks start making their weight felt with the big club. Every single move of theirs for the past two off-seasons has been in line with such.

Rebuilding through attrition, for lack of a better term, is neither sexy nor satisfying for fans. And it can fail spectacularly, as 2013 demonstrated. So there's plenty to not like and criticize. But you can't say they don't have a strategy, because they clearly do.

[awh™]

"bap, when looking at Lincoln's career ERA+, it'd probably be best to consider the following split:

as starter: 5.65 ERA in 116.1 IP
as reliever: 3.56 ERA in 103.2 IP

His stuff plays up quite a bit better in the bullpen. That's part of why I think it was a fairly smart acquisition by our esteemed GM."

NEPP, bap is still upset that it was Kratz that they traded to acquire Lincoln. :)

[bay_area_phan]

NEPP: I actually liked the trade too. He's got upside & is still young enough to reach it.

Still . . . he hasn't exactly been a pillar of success, even in the bullpen. Even last year, he had a 1.579 WHIP and was optioned back to AAA multiple times. And that, ladies and gentlemen, was RAJ's signature off-season upgrade to the major's 2nd worst bullpen.

[LorecorE]

awh: "Can [Howard] possibly be worse than last season?"

Yes, it was called 2012, ya know the other year he just 'had to get healthy'.

[MG]

Lincoln doesn't have any options left either. He is a lock for the pen. Ditto Bastardo and Papelbon. Figure Adams start the year on the DL.

The rest is up in the air but Diekman will have to be a basket case from a command perspective to not make it as the 2nd lefty.

That leaves 3 spots. Bet Munson (with a decent spring) and Gaudin are the other 2 spots. Basically leaves one more spot for a RHP reliever which means wither De Fratus or Rosenberg.

[MG]

Middle relief core of Munson, Gaudin, Diekman, and De Fratus/Rosenberg.

Really hard to see how that quartet will be a quality trio.

[awh™]

Also, though it was his last draft, and the draft overall has produced some MLB talent, or guys that actually got a cup of coffee

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=franch_year&team_ID=PHI&year_ID=2008&draft_type=junreg&

Worley, Pettibone, Stutes, Rosenberg, Gose, Schwimer, Cloyd and Susdorf

the 1st Round of that draft where Arbuckle selected both Hewitt and Collier has been a disaster:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?query_type=year_round&year_ID=2008&draft_round=1&draft_type=junreg&

Take a look at some of the guys selected after Hewitt and Collier:

Lance Lynn: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lynnla01.shtml

Gerrit Cole: http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=cole--001ger

Connor Gillaspie: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gillaco01.shtml

Jordan Lyles: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lylesjo01.shtml

Wade Miley: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mileywa01.shtml

Not all of them are great, but they've been more useful than Hewitt or Collier.

[bay_area_phan]

"Middle relief core of Munson, Gaudin, Diekman, and De Fratus/Rosenberg.

Really hard to see how that quartet will be a quality trio."

Especially since there are four of them.

[awh™]

bap, my bullpen prediction, without having seen some of these guys pitch:

Papelbon
Bastardo
Lincoln
Gaudin

and three of

Diekman, De Fratus, Rosenberg, Munson, Garcia, Horst, Savery

MAG and Pettibone battle for the 5th starter spot - loser goes to AAA to join Martin, who, you correctly pointed out, is being stretched out as a starter.

Adams? I don't care what he, his doctors, the Phils medical staff of the Phils FO say, I'll believe he can pitch effectively again when I see it.

[Meyer]

The Cardinals obviously have the secret formula. I'll bet there's a Branch Rickey Farm Feeding Codice being passed on from GM to GM to GM.

[clout]

When did Munson become a slam dunk on BL? What did I miss?

[bay_area_phan]

Craig Kimbrel, Brandon Crawford, and Jason Kipinis, also went after both Hewitt & Golson. So there were good players to be had. Imagine how much differently things would look today if you replaced Papelbon, Rolins & Utley, and their salaries, with those 3.

[bay_area_phan]

"When did Munson become a slam dunk on BL? What did I miss?"

The Rule 5 draft, apparently.

[awh™]

clout, Munson isn't on my "slam dunk" list.

He's a hard thrower with command issues, if the scouting reports posted here are to be believed.

That means he's very similar to a lot of the younger relievers the Phillies already have, no?

[awh™]

Dare we throw Ken Giles into the potential bullpen mix?

Will he improve enough to be called up?

[awh™]

The reason I did not include Phillipe Aumont in my post about the bullpen above, is I believe he's eroded any goodwill he had within the organization, and I would not be surprised to see him either traded or released, depending on how many options he has left.

[bay_area_phan]

"That means he's very similar to a lot of the younger relievers the Phillies already have, no?"

He's actually worse than our own guys since, even in the minors, he has mostly been terrible. But I would never bet against a Rule 5 pick making the Phillies' roster. It has happened 3 years in a row.

[LorecorE]

bap: My pen prediction is the exact same as yours.

I look forward to 2018 when clout is telling beerleaguer how you and I called Munson a slamdunk back in the day.

[NEPP]

Barring a ridiculous spring, I somewhat doubt that Munson makes the 25 man. He feels like another Travis Blackley to me.

[Meyer]

Quotes from Sunday's Morning Call. Jeff Schuler interview with Joe Jordon/Ruben Amaro regarding Aumont: Amaro -"If we can get him straightened out, and I think we're on the right path for doing that, he's got a chance to do some special things". "With a little bit different voice from our staff and such, a little bit different mental make-up - he has to be a big boy and make some adjustments -- he can be key for us."

[Meyer]

SQUEEZE that "big boy" between Lidge and Halladay in ST.

[Ruben]

I hate Darin Ruf.

[Bubba]

"With a little bit different voice from our staff"

Nice job reference for Dubee from his prior employer!

[aksmith]

Our long national nightmare is over, if the title of this thread is to be believed. Ben Revere got paid. Well, we can all go back to doing what we were doing before we began fretting about that one.

Does anyone really care about the composition of the Phillies bullpen at this point? I mean, if it had good pitchers in it, I would feel differently. I suppose Bastardo will be okay. And one of the kids will do well because it's simply unthinkable that that many young arms will all stink at the same time. But I see raging decline in Papelbon. Anyone who watched him pitch as the season wore on last year has to wonder. Of course, the meme on BL is that Papelbon had a great season. While what I saw was a guy struggling through a lot of really bad, lower than the past velocity pitches and a less than potent splitter to get what look like acceptable numbers. But in relief, it's really about holding leads and he didn't do that too well, even though he didn't log a lot of innings.

I wonder where Papelbon would rank on the list of closers, or all relievers, in baseball right now. What we do know is that nobody would take that ridiculous salary off our hands even if they had to give up nothing. So, what is his actual value?

All we are left with is the hope that his decline in stuff was due to a hip problem. But with the Phillies medical staff, and the lack of news about Papelbon's health this offseason, I have to wonder what's going on there.

[NEPP]

Would a positive endorsement from Rube really help Dubee anyway?

I'd take negative praise from him as a compliment personally.

[aksmith]

NEPP - Everyone knows Dubee was a sourpuss. So, Rube brought in Bowa to lighten things up. And the pitching coach hire sure looked a lot like the laughable head coach hire of the Cleveland Browns. At some point, if your org is run poorly enough, people are really not going to want the job. Hard to believe that right now, the Phillies have gone from prime real estate to Cleveland. Sure, the pitching coach nobody ever heard of or wanted is going to straighten out the mess that is Phillipe Aumont.

Everything this organization does anymore seems like some kind of ironic inside joke.