In true Phillies spring fashion, Hamels has setback

Cole Hamels' scheduled throwing session Thursday was canceled because of arm fatigue. Hamels was scheduled to throw batting practice, but instead needs to "step back and start over," according to CSNPhilly.com.

Hamels wasn't going to be ready for Opening Day, but now it looks doubtful that he'll pitch in April. 

"April is the last thing I want to think about right now," Hamels told reporters. "I would say, right now, we’re just taking it day by day. Ultimately I just want to get back out and get on the mound and see how I’m going to fare there."

If Hamels is out for an extended period of time -- and right now, it's hard to see any way he returns quickly -- the signing of A.J. Burnett morphs from an added bonus for the Phillies to a 1-for-1 swap at the top of the rotation. 

Hamels has said he's lost weight and strength and that his arm is tired, not in pain. 

“I felt good when I threw my last bullpen [Saturday], everything was great,” Hamels said. “But later that day and the next day, my arm felt fatigued. After 35 pitches, my body felt like I had thrown 1,000.

“I’ve been pushing everything I can to get ready and get back, and I pushed a little too hard. I wasn’t able to recover the way I have to.”

Hamels added that neither an MRI nor a cortisone shot has been deemed necessary.

The Phillies won't need a fifth starter until mid-April, but this now means that they likely must turn to either Miguel Alfredo Gonzalez, David Buchanan, Sean O'Sullivan or Jeff Manship for some late-April starts. That is, unless Jonathan Pettibone or Ethan Martin are recovered from their own arm issues in time.

Hamels joins Ryan Howard, Chase Utley, Roy Halladay and Brad Lidge as Phillies in the last few years who've suffered spring training setbacks.

Comments

[LorecorE]

if you did give your bench lineup without Ruf, than please repost since I must have missed it.

[bay_area_phan]

If spring training ends and Abreu is hitting around the Mendoza line with an OBP over .350, would that be a strong enough spring performance to earn a roster spot? I say no. Drawing walks is nice but it can't be the only skill a guy has -- especially for a bench player. But it would sure be ironic if Mr "I don't care about walks; I care about production" gave him a roster spot based on that performance.

[Phillibuster]

Lore: I didn't, but neither, today, did I once say that I didn't think Ruf should make the team, so your ad hominem rings pretty hollow.

What I said was I don't understand people who simultaneously believe that Ruf is going to be awesome this year and think that the Phillies missed trading Ruf at peak value this off-season.

If he's awesome, his value will go up. If it doesn't, then he won't be awesome. QED.

[Phillibuster]

Also, since I can't watch with sound right now... Are the O's broadcasters just as generic as I remember them? They beat out the MASN2 bunch by leaps and bounds, but that's not saying much.

[bay_area_phan]

Even our vaunted starting pitching looks pretty crappy in spring training.

[LorecorE]

I was pretty certain you spent a ton of posts explaining why the Phillies bench is better off with more defensive flexibility and therefore Ruf shouldn't make the team.

Well whatever, if I read you wrong, then it looks like we all agree. Ruf belongs on the Opening Day roster as a reserve and platoon option for 1B.

so what is all the debating over?

[Phillibuster]

I didn't say that either. However, my comments today - beyond valuing the return on a Ruf trade at about a C-grade prospect and saying he's not an everyday RF - were wholly non-qualitative.

Which is why I found your comment rather odd.

That said, unless Cesar can be counted on to be a .300 hitter (OBP in the .355-.360 range), I don't really see who I'd rather have on the bench from our own guys.

I would rather have an average-ish defensively (at non-1B), fast, lower-power-but-mid/high-BA/OBP guy than a slow 1B with low BA, good power and good OBP. However, unless one of the UTIs signed can provide that, we don't have it, so it's a moot point, yes.

[Bubba]

Everything I read, here and elsewhere, says Nieves is a lock for the backup catcher's spot, yet he never seems to play in the ST games.(2 games, 6 ABs)

Strange.

[Reality]

See- Lorecore again- last man in adding nothing to a discussion other than nonsense.

I read all of Phillibuster's posts today and it was clear what he was saying

[Cyclic]

A hit!

An XBH!

A Ryan Howard XBH!

A Ryan Howard XBH off a LHP!

[Steve]

Todd Zolecki
@ToddZolecki

Halladay said there is no soreness and nothing hurts. Says he felt lethargic because of more intense throwing program.

4:00 PM - 12 Mar 2013

[Cyclic]

Nice find, Steve.

[Phillibuster]

Cyclic: What was the count on it? More than any results, I'm interested in whether he's actually being more patient at the plate. He's shown a few fits of unnecessary aggressiveness, but I've liked what I've seen overall.

[Cyclic]

I'm on Gameday today, so I don't think it keeps track.

[Phillibuster]

Ach. I'll have to see if I can get a better connection later and re-watch it on MLBTV. It was so choppy earlier it was unwatchable.

[bay_area_phan]

"It was so choppy earlier it was unwatchable."

Do you mean the connection or the Phillies play?

[nokwurst]

Nice Steve, that's exactly why I'm being so hard on Amaro/Phils for not getting an MRI.

RAJ's reason for not getting an MRI is b/c "Cole's not hurt," as in he doesn't feel any pain. But absence of pain does not necessarily equate to "everything's fine and healthy."

Yet another LOGIC PHAIL by the Phils.

[steve]

Abreu should not be added (or not added) to the roster on the basis of his spring stats. The sample is too small. It should be based on whether he's making good contact, being selective at the plate, and refusing to chase balls out of fear of the wall.

[Cyclic]

Triple, wild pitch, walk.

MAG already pitching like he belongs in the Phil's bullpen.

[Dickie Thong]

MAG must be all over the place, because Gameday's pitch tracker only showed pitches #1 and #4 of Adam Jones' 4-pitch BB. The other two must have been somewhere off-screen.

[Phillibuster]

BAP: Alas, if only I had the choice. It was so choppy I couldn't see the choppiness on-field (1 second of video, followed by 20 of buffering).

[Earl The Burl]

MAG hasn't gotten any help from the defense, that's for sure.

[bay_area_phan]

"It should be based on whether he's making good contact, being selective at the plate, and refusing to chase balls out of fear of the wall."

We already know he's selective at the plate and can't field so it's not like spring training is going to teach us anything on those topics. What we don't know is how much he can still hit.

I suppose if he was hitting .200 but making "good contact," that would be a positive sign. But "good contact" is a pretty subjective criterion and the Phillies' brass has a way of perceiving subjective criteria in a way that is out of touch with reality. I'd rather take my chances relying on his spring stats than the Phillies' scouts.

[Earl The Burl]

this is a clownshow.

[bay_area_phan]

Prediction: come July, MAG will have a 5+ ERA and 5+ bb/9 ratio at Lehigh Valley, and everyone will still be blaming it on his 2-year break.

[Johnny D]

MAG is getting shelled... OUCH!

[bittel]

Update? Which pitchers are getting hammered? None I hope?

Help a brother.

[Juums]

And there's another ball past a diving Chase Utl--no, wait, Frandsen's out there as the 2B today. It's a lot hard to rib, as we want Frandsen to do so badly that Hernandez gets to be the other utility infielder.

And MAG is relying very heavily on his curveball. Seems like it's the only thing he's got today that he can command and has some bite to it.

[bay_area_phan]

At some point, it does more harm than good to keep him out there to get shelled. I think we're well past that point.

[Cyclic]

Wait they have their own Miguel Gonzalez?

[Dickie Thong]

@nokwurst: You're forgetting that the doctors twirled Cole's arm. No need for an MRI if he passes the arm twirl test .

[bay_area_phan]

Miguel Gonzalez is pitching for both teams? No wonder Asche & Rupp finally got hits.

[If the Schu fits]

My sister was a baton twirler in high school. Her shoulders have never been the same.

[Meyer]

What's the injury delay with Revere batting?

[Juums]

MAG did have a fair bit of bad luck in that inning: It got off on the wrong foot with that ball getting by Howard and going into the deepest part of the corner, which let Markakis stretch a double into a triple. It didn't get any better when Rupp missed that easy flyball.

If we're looking for upside, the curveball had a lot of bite to it and was missing the barrels of bats for the most part. It just would've been nice if he'd've had anything else to pair with it.

[Johnny D]

Yeah, how 'bout that - Mr. Gonzalez vs Mr. Gonzalez.

[Juums]

Meyer:
Rupp ricocheted a line drive off of Gonzalez's shin.

[Meyer]

Thanks. Bad day for the Gonzalezez.

[nokwurst]

Yeah, what part of a doctor's exam is the "arm twirl" anyway?

I'm picturing the classic WWE move that renders the vicitm unable to escape.

[Cyclic]

The dreaded Dom Brown bases loaded

[nokwurst]

Thanks Juums for the info on MAG's curveball, it sounds like an actual positive to takeaway (finally). And I would hope (guess)that the fastball is one of the easier pitches to "find."

[Phillibuster]

They were talking about his breaking ball being a surprising positive the last time he pitched, weren't they?

It'd be nice if he could command a fastball that could miss bats, but... Hey, I'll take good news about him where I can.

[Juums]

Phillibuster:
The problem isn't so much that he couldn't miss bats with his fastball. It's that, at the start of the inning, he couldn't find the strike zone at all. Markakis scored on a wild pitch, after all, and the four-pitch walk to Adam Jones came on four straight fastballs.

Most of the damage against MAG came from his throwing the curveball 4-5 times in a row and letting the batter get it timed. Throw the same pitch often enough and soon enough somebody will be able to muscle it into a hole.

[Dickie Thong]

What's the mercy rule in ST? 10 runs?

[Phillibuster]

Juums: Maybe he was just doing his best Phillipe Aumont impression, to make his LHV teammates laugh?

[Jack]

Now I sort of expect the Phillies to use the MAG disaster as an excuse to not sign an international FA for the next decade.

[Dickie Thong]

Matt Gelb (@magelb)
The Phillies are down 12-2 and have taken the field without a shortstop or left fielder. Things going well

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

At least in a clown show none of the clowns are missing.

[Phillibuster]

Have they substituted their SS and LF for an additional 2 pitchers? Two of them hold rosin bags, one the ball. How can the batter decide?!?!?

[curt]

This squad is fully capable of losing 100 games.

[Dickie Thong]

Maybe they are taking a cue from the Sixers.

[Juums]

I'm a big fan of Darin Ruf, but yikes, was that a horribly played dive. The boy needs to learn to just play the ball where it lands and prioritize cutting it off.

At least it wasn't as ugly as Blanco's booted ball up the middle. Good thing Freddy Galvis was out there in RF when that happened.

[Johnny D]

At this point, I have to imagine that Larry Bowa is ready to give a not-so-inspiring team pep talk...

[Juums]

FREE RUPP.

[Reality]

My prediction:regardless of what MAG does this year- BAP and his fellow moronites will find some reason to complain about him

[Juums]

Delmon Young flying out to Freddy Galvis should be immensely satisfying, until you realize that Galvis was on the warning track in RF.

At which point you realize just how ridiculous the Phils' roster situation is, and we're barely a week into exhibition play.

[bay_area_phan]

Phlipper: Yeah, no reason at all to complain about MAG so far. He has been stellar.

[Steve]

It's amazing how thin and poorly constructed this lineup is top-to-bottom.

Sorry, except for backup utility infielders. We have them in spades.

[Juums]

#FluffRuf!

[Meyer]

Did Ruf pulverize one?

[bay_area_phan]

Ruf is about the only non-pitcher on this roster worth watching. Maybe I should ditch my MLB.tv subscription and get a mILB.tv subscription instead.

[Juums]

Meyer:
Yes. 3-1 belt-high fastball that you Ruf absolutely demolished.

[bay_area_phan]

Our bullpen is sending a real message to the offense with this performance. The message is: you may suck, but we still suck even more.

[Phillibuster]

Anything you can fail, I can fail harder! /
I can fail anything harder than you!

[Johnny D]

OK, top of the ninth - got'em right where we want them...

[Corn]

I swear Amaro is Omar Minaya in disguise

[LorecorE]

Buster from the thread I was talking about:

"I'd rather carry a backup at one of the "trouble" positions who can also hit for average (say, Hernandez) in addition to a UTI, than a UTI and a guy who can only play first even if he can hit for power (and middling OBP).

I don't even disagree with the increased value of Ruf as a hitter (though, again, I think a lot of the people here are wildly and unrealistically high on him). I just don't agree with the roster construction that, given our older players, we can cover all our bases (literally, actually) with one UTI and Darin Ruf."

How is this above quote not you advocating that Ruf start the year in the minors? You specifically say you dont think the team can build a roster with him based on infield defensive needs.

[Juums]

Nice job by Asche continuing to be disciplined. Given the number of times of late he's been called out on close pitches, it's good to see him not getting overly aggressive.

In more depressing news, the Padres have claimed Alex Castellanos. Which means, if I understood waiver priority correctly, means the Phils had their shot and passed on him. It's not like Castellanos would've immediately become the best 4th OF candidate in the Phils' ST camp had they claimed him. ...oh, wait.

[Phillibuster]

Lore: And that had nothing to do with what I was saying today, since I wasn't advocating for either his inclusion or his exclusion today.

Which is why your bringing it up seemed to be entirely ad hominem.

[clout]

Re: Ruf. Jack and I don't always agree, but in previous Ruf debates he raised an interesting question: If you dealt him, just what do you think you could get?

The Moronocracy would say a back of rotation pitcher or average everyday player. I suspect, and I think Jack does too, the return would be significantly short of that.

[Lenny]

Can anyone give me some info on how the Phillies games will be broadcast in the Harrisburg area? We don't get CSN Philly and we used to get about 40 to 50 games a year on PHIL 17. The broadcast schedule says they are broadcasting like 12 games on NBC. Have they really cut the games available in the Harrisburg market to 12?

[limoguy]

Would love to have Whitey's assessment of this team.

[Steve]

"Hard to believe, Harry"

[Steve]

...not in a good way though

[Juums]

Clout:
Anyone who thinks Darin Ruf will net an everyday player is either ludicrously optimistic or imbibing large amounts of controlled substances. Or maybe both.

Though by "back of the rotation starter", what's your measuring stick for that? Are we talking, say, Kyle Kendrick-esque back-end starter? (I.E. a guy who's performed like a #5 in aggregate in MLB but has flashed the upside of a #3.) As I'd concur that's probably not going to happen for Ruf unless he's part of a package. But a Jon Lannan-esque back-end starter? (I.E. a guy with a 99 ERA+ who everyone agrees has already reached his upside.) That's not all that farfetched, though it's still likely that you couldn't find a taker in a straight-up trade.

What I always envisioned in terms of the return on a Ruf trade would've been trading like-for-like: As Ruf's generally agreed upon ceiling is a bench piece who should get 350-400 PA a year, the Phils would receive a useful bench piece or MLB-ready bullpen piece who projected as a middle reliever for him. The alternative would be to try and pick up a useful prospect, who -- given Ruf's age and limited shelf-lfie -- would likely be a high-ceiling guy in the low minors with at least one prominent red flag.

[Phillibuster]

Lenny: You're going to have to get CSN for most of them. TCN will probably have a few as well.

If you don't have Comcast, it's gonna be tough. Although depending on how far West you are, you could be out of the blackout radius, and MLB.TV could work.

[MG]

Phils are rumored to be kicking the tires on starters including Santana according to Nic Cafardo at the Boston Globe. Reported this afternoon.

Sure Hamels is fine.

[Phillibuster]

Isn't there some question as to who Santana's agent is?

[Lenny]

Thanks Phillibuster, I have Comcast but I get MASN for O's and Nats. I also get all the Bucs games. I am willing to buy the MLB package but I would only get the out of market games because I am considered in market. I have always resisted because I always got half the games on TV anyway, especially when the Phils were good.

[MG]

Food for thought;

Phils haven't ordered an MRI for Hamels because his shoulder isn't an issue but it is a metabolic or other issue which is causing his fatigue and weight loss this offseason

[Phillibuster]

Lenny: Yeah, when I lived in Lancaster it was especially annoying, because even though I got Philly CSN, my Phillies games were blacked out when they were playing the Nats (MASN2 got priority, for some reason).

Of course, now I live in Baltimore, where MASN and MASN2 take priority over MLB.TV, but at least I get the rest of the Phillies games.

[Phillibuster]

Also, Buccs games are a bit fun to watch, but ROOT ruins the experience.

[Lenny]

Phillibuster I always enjoyed having half the games on tv and half on radio. I guess I will get the MLB package. Thanks for the info.

[Delaware Avenue]

Santana at at least four years and losing a pick? Is that even worth it?

[Phillibuster]

TV will black you out if you're even a bit in the blackout radius, so I'd make sure before you do. You'll only get access to the full video 90 minutes after the game ends. Which would honestly probably be ok for my purposes, but only if you can manage to avoid hearing any scores.

Also, staying up that late.

[Lenny]

@buster, I do wish they would at least televise the Sunday game. Even when the Bucs were good last year they were boring to watch. I could never put my finger on why. Never considered that ROOT's production could be the problem. That's interesting.

[Phillibuster]

The announcers were meh, but yeah, I find their camera work was sub-par (maybe better now, been a couple of years since I was in LNC), and the quality of the video feed wasn't as nice as CSN.

[Lenny]

I think Bob Walk does the color. We will give him a pass since he was on the 80 WS champions. But now that you mention it something always seemed different. I lurk on this board everyday so if I have anymore broadcast questions I will look you up. Thanks again-very helpful

[Phillibuster]

Heh, no worries. My info (for the mid-state, anyway) is a bit out of date. I think it's either Bullit or Bittel who still lives in the LNC area, so s/he is probably a better source for local TV networks.

[Vladimir Putin]

I will not allow Phillies games to be seen in Russia. I will not do that to my people!

[Cyclic]

DelAve-- You have to remember, Hamels might be about to retire.