Phillies vs. Marlins: Series open thread

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[bittel]

What is wrong with ASCHE? How can he be on third base?

[bittel]

Wow. Just wow. Thanks Cody.

[bay_area_phan]

KK's is getting good movement on his pitches, but a 36:27 strike:ball ratio is just totally unacceptable for a non-power pitcher.

[BobbyD]

Just checked the score. Why the f are the Marlins scoring so much in this series??

[Rally Red '67]

Bad Kyle tonight. Season is truly over unless this guy figures it out again - we need the "shot at a CGSO Kyle" back. Now.

[Cyclic]

BOOOOOOO if they can't push any runs across here.

Totally futile.

[Cyclic]

Please put together a good AB Asche.

You seem to be seeing the ball well. Come up big!

[bittel]

I imagine the Phils' win likelihood just went down some with that great catch, huh?

[Steve]

I'd like TBag to express just a little disappointment there. It sounded like Stanton was a Phillie making that play.

[Curt]

Missed a bases clearing double by 2 inches. Fine catch by Stanton.

[PLM]

Im not watching the game i have to assume its the Bad Kyle on the mound today.

[Cyclic]

Damn. Asche gave it a good effort.

[Phillibuster]

Ridiculously clutch catch for Stanton.

Also, isn't one of the complaints about TMac here that he's too much of a homer? I would think I'd want an announcer to sound amazed at an amazing play.

[Phillies Fan]

That was a sure 3 run double robbed by Stanton...Asche laced it

[Phillies Fan]

Manship white flag waving in the bullpen

[Phillibuster]

Well, that would have been a nice shut-down inning after that bases-clearing double.

[bay_area_phan]

"Well, that would have been a nice shut-down inning after that bases-clearing double."

If the bases-clearing double had happened, KK would have allowed 3 runs there.

[Phillibuster]

Glad to see your optimism is in mid-season form, BAP.

[bittel]

How many different ways are there to bounce to the pitcher? Dom Brown aims to test the limits.

[Phillibuster]

Well, at least it sounds like KK is going to get a chance to go out for the 6th.

That much less Manshipment.

[Meyer]

The dribbler, the 2 hopper, the 1 hopper, the sharpie, ...

[Phillibuster]

Well, now Jimmy just needs another HR with the pitcher on-base.

[bay_area_phan]

Time for Jimmy to tie this game.

[bittel]

Wish Kyle would have singled in either of his GIDP at-bats.

[Phillibuster]

Oh well. I guess we can't depend on Young James to do everything for this team.

[bittel]

It's really enough with the Hollands experiment.

[Dickie Thong]

I guess we have our answer on whether TGJ could make that catch again.

[bay_area_phan]

Yelich's triple was pretty much the same ball that Gwynn caught last night. So, to those who say that Revere wouldn't have made that catch, I say: neither would Gwynn in the vast majority of instances.

[bay_area_phan]

I gotta go to open house at my kid's school. I think I can pretty safely assume that I won't be missing any great comeback.

[Curt]

All Sandberg has to do now is stick Bryd at cleanup and he has - finally - maximized this crew's chances to score runs. There's really no way to avoid the black hole at #7 -#9 given the current roster.

[kuvasz]

why is that guy wearing a major league uniform?

[Curt]

Poor Manship...the LV shuttle is warming up outside the stadium.

[Curt]

And all of the pretenders at LV are staying up late hoping to get that call yet again.

[Jake]

Is that considered an opposite field HR?

[GBrettfan]

I've missed the game...and now that the Marlins have 10! runs, there doesn't seem to be a reason to start watching now.

Reinforces how much we needed Lee, to have KK & the 'pen give up 10.

[bittel]

Did Ben Revere just swing before a strike was thrown???

Sometimes I just can't take the game anymore.

[Curt]

Garcia says to Manship: anything you can't do I can't do it even more badly.

[kuvasz]

Maybe Bob McClure can teach these guys to pitch with their other arm?

Or throw underhand?

[Curt]

Nice 49 pitch mop up inning by The Barber.

[Luis Garcia]

I'd rather be cutting at hair

[Darin Ruf]

I didn't come here for this

[PJohn Mayberry]

See I can hit righties.

[PLM]

I blame the Manship experiment on the pitching coach. Not sure what he saw in him. Since Rube hired him ultimately its his fault to.

[Conway Twitty]

How fitting. Garcia's ERA is up to the price of a haircut, 15.75!

[Conway Twitty]

Phils are 0-7 on Wednesdays. Franzke said their best result was a rainout.

[Iceman]

Normally I would blame something like Manship on scouting or coaching failures.

The bullpen- this particular bullpen- is 100% on the general manager.

A vast majority of posters on this site have seen these problems building for the last 3+ seasons. Nothing has been done to address them, aside of sticking high-priced band aids at the back end of the bullpen and crossing fingers that the rest will fall into place.

Amaro has failed at a lot of things the past five years, but his failure to build a major league bullpen with the kind of payroll he's been given is grounds for his immediate firing all by itself.

[PLM]

I agree Ice, the article i read a bit ago said that McClure wanted Manship. While i can understand having someone like him or Camp as AAA filler (Camp the lesser of the two evils probably) none should of made the roster. While we at it why did release Camp to then resign him ?

[Charles Fuqua Manuel, Jr.]

I expect we will see at least 20 more games this year that play out the same basic way. Enough offense to win most games but with a weak effort from the starting pitcher before the bullpen comes in and lets the game get totally out of hand.

[bay_area_phan]

Manship had a 7.04 ERA last year, a 7.89 ERA in 2012, and an 8.10 ERA in 2011. On the other hand, his ERA in 2010 was only 5.28. McClure must have been hoping for a bounce-back.

[MG]

The only good thing about last night was that possibly might be the end of Manship's mysterious tenure with the MLB roster since Opening Day. As bad as anybody the Phils have used out of the pen the last 10 years and been up with the club for nearly 2 months now.

Hopefully the barber goes back to cutting down guys at T-AAA.

No big fan of De Fratus and don't think he is that much better/same as Rosenberg both guys are better pitchers than Manship/Garcia. Hell, Manship and Garcia are both mediocre AAA relievers at best.

Meanwhile Giles continues to pile up meaningless Ks and 0s at AAA while this team's most desperate need is a RHP reliever.

[MG]

Manship

At least Camp threw strikes even if he had pedestrian stuff. Amaro said about a month ago that the young relievers need to learn how to throw strikes (throwaway comment but some kernel of truth to it).

Manship has now allowed 10 BBs in 12 IP and 37 BB in 80 1/3 IP (4.1 BB/9). Never been a guy with particularly good command as a reliever and doesn't strike out nearly enough hitters with such mediocre command (5.6 KK/9) and hittable stuff.

[MG]

Those numbers were MLB numbers for Manship as a reliever. They sink and he now has an ERA approaching 7.00 as a reliever in 80 1/3 IP.

[MG]

Savery:

3 G, 4 IP, 0.00 ERA, 1 BB, 0 K

Savery was certainly a marginal MLB reliever too but how did the Phils not think he was a better pitcher than the likes of a number of guys they have already trotted out there this season including Manship, Garcia, and Camp.

Evey Savery was LH but the Phils have had no problem apparently carrying 3 LH relievers all season now and using one of them quite sparingly (Hollands).

[ColonelTom]

A small positive from last night's debacle: after a combined 80 pitches, Manship and Garcia are likely unavailable this afternoon. Woot!

[bittel]

They can't leave the week with either Manship or Garcia on the team, so that's an improvement. Release them.

DeFratus up, Giles up, ideally. But would take any of the others mentioned, or even someone off the street before I want to see either of them pitch again - ever, at any level.

[ColonelTom]

A few on BL laughed when I suggested trading Michael Young for Joba Chamberlain last year. Chamberlain's 2014 line so far in Detroit:

3.20 ERA, 19.2 IP, 19 H, 0 HR, 5 BB, 25 K

[NEPP]

Um, Joba was a free agent last winter...if they wanted, all they had to do was sign him on the open market.

Even if they had "wisely" traded for him last year, he'd still have been a free agent and they would have had to re-sign him at that point to have him now.

[Phillies Fan]

NEPP that's true but fact remains, the "don't trade young for Joba" crowd were idiots

[MG]

Phils bullpen:

MLB rankings

4.18 ERA (27th)
4.29 xFIP (28th)
3.90 SIERA (29th)

8.13 K/9 (18th)
4.30 BB/9 (30th)
1.89 K/BB (29th)

0.87 HR/9 (15th)
72.2% Left on Base (24th)
19.5% LD (4th)
1.16 GB/FB (21st)
.307 BABIP (27th)
43.3% % GB (18th)

-0.1 fWAR (t-26th)

It has been an awful bullpen so far and the only pen that has been demonstrably worse in MLB is the Astros who have no intentions to contend and are spending almost nothing on their bullpen.

The only hope going ahead forward is that the control is marginally better and some reversion to mean takes place on BABIP although this lousy defense won't help that much.

[MG]

Still don't understand why Amaro didn't take a flyer or two on MLB relievers who were available on minor deals or veteran league minimum. Easily could have promised them a spot on the Opening Day roster or a very strong prospect of one which is exactly what these guys wanted.

Basically this team needed everything to break right to contend. Sad part is that so far it nearly has except the Lee injury (no timetable on return) and the horrid bullpen.

Without Lee for 2 or 3 weeks, they can hang around. If Lee is out closer to 2 months, they are done.

[MG]

Problem too is that not a single reliever besides Jimenez is consistently throwing strikes right now at Lehigh either.

[Reality]

At 7:29 am MG says "Giles is putting up meaningless K at Lehigh Valley."

At 9:39 am MG says "Not a single reliever is consistently throwing strikes at Lehigh Valley."

At 9:48 reality tells MG "you are a freaking dope."

[MG]

Reality - He is putting up meaningless Ks and is better than Garcia/Manship.

Just in the last week or so Giles has had a couple of outings where he has struggled to throw strikes.

Go back to your hole. You offer nothing of substance and if you are going to play the role of curmudgeon at least make a compelling argument.

[GBrettfan]

Chris Branch ‏@ChrisBranchTNJ 14m
Lineup notes: Nieves catching and batting second, Revere back in CF batting 8th.

(Everything else the same.)

[Dickie Thong]

Let's not get ahead of ourselves with Savery. He's pitched in 3 games, all in a late inning mop up role where the A's were ahead by a large margin (9-0, 11-0, 13-3).

[Reality]

MG..how about you just focus on providing coherent thoughts instead of worrying about me

[bay_area_phan]

"that's true but fact remains, the "don't trade young for Joba" crowd were idiots"

Um, he just explained why they WEREN'T idiots, and you just acknowledged that his point was true. What good is a half year of Joba Chamberlain (or any pitcher) to a team that is hopelessly out of playoff contention?

[bay_area_phan]

On the other hand, Tommy Kahnle -- whom the Yankees actually offered us for Michael Young, and RAJ turned down -- has a 1.88 ERA and 1.042 WHIP in 24 IP at the major league level. At Coors Field, no less.

[Dickie Thong]

Kahnle is benefiting from a .190 BABIP. His SIERA is 4.38 and xFIP is 4.41.

[NEPP]

Trading for a pending FA...its not like it really would have made them re-sign him. If anything, he would have sucked for them down the stretch (like he did last year from the deadline on with a 4.86 ERA, a WHIP near 2.000 and more walks than strikeouts) and they would have been even less likely to sign him.

Joba is merely demonstrating the fun ups and downs of any relief pitcher. They are easily the last predictable players in baseball from year to year.

[NEPP]

***Nieves catching and batting second, Revere back in CF batting 8th.***

Did Sandberg use last night's card and merely cross out Ruiz and Gwynn.

How else do you get those lineup positions with Nieves and Revere?

[NEPP]

Is everyone starting to realize that UC was actually a fairly solid manager? I would think after 3-4 months of watching Sandberg "manage" that its starting to look a bit more clear now.

Eh?

[GBrettfan]

Last time Nieves batted 2nd, it went well.

And Revere should be batting 8th until he gets on a hot streak.

* * *

BAP, if they Yankees offered us a young relief pitcher for our not-so-young Young, Amaro should have pounced. Perhaps he's the only one not to notice that our BP could seriously used some help these past 3 years.

** *

Injury news:

Jim Salisbury ‏@JSalisburyCSN 7m
Amaro said Pettibone saw Doc Andrews. Has small tear in shoulder. Labrum. Will get anti inflammatory shot, rest. No surgery.

[MG]

Reality - That is your best retort? Keep saying dumb and/or pointless things and in the future I will just continue to ignore them.

[NEPP]

***Amaro said Pettibone saw Doc Andrews. Has small tear in shoulder. Labrum. Will get anti inflammatory shot, rest. No surgery***

That only took a year to do. Great work again by our crack medical staff.

[MG]

In Nieves defense, he has been hitting and maybe Sandberg is playing a hunch.

Given how cold Brown & Revere have been this entire month, they should be lower in the lineup.

[NEPP]

And Revere should be batting 8th until he gets on a hot streak.
************

Personally I'd bat him 9th.

I'd rather see Utley 2nd though than Nieves but you make a good point.

[GBrettfan]

On Pettibone: He's just postponing the inevitable, isn't he? The tear won't get better, will only get worse over time. And he wasn't exactly Cy Young when healthy, so I don't see how pitching hurt will help, not once the effects of the cortisone shot wear off. I can only assume he wants to finish the season before getting surgery.

[MG]

NEPP - Yup it is ridiculous and the performance of this medical/training staff the last 2+ years have been embarrassing.

[Dickie Thong]

Jim Salisbury (@JSalisburyCSN)
More on Pettibone: he made the choice not to have surgery, have injection and try to keep pitching after period of rest.

[NEPP]

More on Pettibone: he made the choice not to have surgery, have injection and try to keep pitching after period of rest.
**************

Brilliant, just brilliant. That means he likely was told that the surgery would be it for the season and he'd rather have a shot at some nice MLB 25 man pay given our pitching issues. Good thing they went with the "rest/ice" method last summer when he initially got hurt instead of actually correctly diagnosing it and then fixing it then.

[Phillibuster]

Teams can never force their players to get surgery. Generally speaking, when a player doesn't have it on something that's obviously correctable via surgery, it's the player's choice.

It's the team's choice whether to play them, or take them off the DL, but the player gets paid either way so it's often to their advantage to let guys try to recover the way they're willing to do so (unless they come back even worse, a la Halladay).

[Phillibuster]

NEPP: You think that a young pitcher, who's shown stuff like an MLB-caliber #4 starter, is going to intentionally risk his entire career for half a season's pay at the league minimum?

[NEPP]

Of course its obviously always the players choice...but they didnt even send him to Andrews for nearly an entire year.

[NEPP]

I think a young player would rather fight through it and compete rather than take a year off...given that young players (and young people in general) tend to think they can fight through anything.

[NEPP]

Dont get me wrong, I think Pettibone's heart is in the right place here but perhaps he's not the most objective person in the world about the issue. The same could have been said for Doc previously and countless other players as that competitive drive is pretty high.

[bay_area_phan]

"Kahnle is benefiting from a .190 BABIP. His SIERA is 4.38 and xFIP is 4.41."

So, he'd be solidly better than at least 2 relievers in our bullpen.

[NEPP]

I was bored so to build on bap's rejoinder there...that 4.41 xFIP would place Kahnle 5th in our bullpen out of 12 total "relievers" so far that have been used including Fausto's appearances.

His 4.38 SIERA would place him 8th...ironically just behind our stud closer's 4.27 SIERA.

[Phillibuster]

Very different story with Doc. He was established, printing his own money, and near the end of his career without a WS ring.

Even if Pettibone had exactly the same mentality as Doc, he'd likely take the surgery at this point in his career.

[Phillibuster]

If he thought it would accelerate his overall convalescence, that is.

[Cyclic]

"The same could have been said for Doc previously and countless other players as that competitive drive is pretty high."

Dont worry. I'm sure Cliff Lee will wait until he's 100% and not risk sucking/blowing out his elbow entirely.

[NEPP]

I threw Doc in there to show that even well respected veteran guys often dont think straight when it comes to injuries.

[Phillibuster]

Oh, no, I agree, but I feel like veterans have a very different perspective on such things than rookies. Younger guys are more likely to recover from surgery and come back sooner that way, than trying to battle through it and eventually needing it anyway. There lies the more likely path to greater earnings.

I have to think that he was advised by the doctor that the surgery wasn't a sure thing to improve his arm, and that he could recover with rest and pain control. Or at least recover as much as the surgery would help him do.

[bay_area_phan]

NEPP: I thought you were writing on TGP now? Do you use a different handle when you write the thread headers?

[Phillibuster]

"The Inquirer’s Matt Gelb writes that doctors stressed to Lee the fact that he has no ligament damage. Still the team could be without its ace for at least three weeks, as Lee will rest entirely for one week then spend two weeks rebuilding the strength that rest will cause him to lose."

[bay_area_phan]

Kyle Kendrick, when asked about the 2 rally-killing DPs that he hit into last night, responded, "I'm not a hitter. That's not my job." I love when a guy mans up and takes responsibility for his failures.

For whatever reason, many fans have never forgiven Jimmy Rollins for his relatively benign (and true) "front-runner" comments. This is far more obnoxious than that -- and rather ironic, too, considering that Kendrick fared rather poorly at the task of pitching last night. But maybe he doesn't think that's his job either.

[Cyclic]

The decision to have him swing away on the second one was quite curious.

[NEPP]

I thought you were writing on TGP now? Do you use a different handle when you write the thread headers?
***********

I'm still slogging through their training program to use their admin features...I've been away on vacation so its slowing it down.

[GBrettfan]

BAP - Agree about Rollins.

But KK did take at least some responsibility for pitching poorly, if not for failing to make the requisite contact to move the runners while at bat.

"The guys put up two runs for me and I go out and [expletive] do that [expletive]. It's just bad," Kendrick said. "It needs to stop."

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20140522_Phillies.html#ofc26UWJqshAjJSi.99

[NEPP]

Its almost as if Sandberg made a mistake asking a pitcher to hit like that.